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On December 26 2010 04:40 decaf wrote:
Atm I feel Zerg is too weak just because of the small maps. With some bigger maps Zerg wouldn't die to inferior players who do nothing but all-inning other people all the time.
Bigger maps would not favor Zerg, but they would force late game.
@QQers: Zerg is NOT overpoweder late game, the only reason why terrans think that is because their plan for the entire game ends after 2 bases. It really is like that: They sit on 2 bases forever, watch the Zerg taking the map, try to all-in, Zerg barely holds it and Terran thinks he still might win because he almost crushed Zerg and he got some MULEs back home, the game takes a few more minutes, Zerg got plenty of drones and is able to reproduce and crushes Terran. Terran goes to TL and QQs about Zerg being op late game. I personally think that Terran is overpowered late game, because Terran mech is ridiculously strong. And you can't really abuse its immobility due to the small maps.
With bigger maps the game would be WAY more balanced. Zerg is still weak and dies high rewarding easy to pull off cheese strategies all the time. Watch GSL3 Fruitdealer, NesTea and IdrA's stream if you don't believe me.
Why is it that there is a need to post balance issues and address stuff that hasn't been said in the thread in a thread that's not about balance issues and TvZ. Although the OP's deeply flawed analysis ("i offrace with terran and win against zerg ezpz durrr") concerns using terran he said that the same principles can be applied to PvZ and he explicitly said he's not talking about race imbalances.
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What a great post! Thank you!
This is pretty much exactly what I think about the maps. But I have to add that map balance is really hard to get, too big and open : zerg will be too favored, etc... But Blizzard should atleast try some new things.
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Having the feeling that you never win against people that are better to you is not a biased opinion, it's pretty much what every Zerg out there that tries to play a macro game will tell you. I switched from Terran to Zerg, and I often had the feeling that the all-ins I could do as Terran gave me wins against players that I would've never been able to defeat in a 'standard' game. Now after about 400 games with Z (2.6k, practicing with ppl on average 300 pts higher though), I can tell you that almost every single opponent I lose to on ladder is a worse player than me doing some stupid map abuse / all-in. I watch a huge amount of replays and I've also played Protoss in beta so I have a fairly broad knowledge of how the different races compare and how skilled the player I am watching is.
I don't know if it's Zerg's lack of early scouting, the maps or just race imbalance in general. As such I (and a lot of pro-gamers) feel that all-ins are just way too strong at this point in time. I would definitely look forward to bigger maps, but as long as Blizzard can enjoy their stupid 50% statistics that seem to be the only thing they really care about and look closely at, I doubt something like this will happen (like removing Shakuras without explanation and introducing Jungle Basin the last patch).
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Having the feeling that you never win against people that are better to you is not a biased opinion, it's pretty much what every Zerg out there that tries to play a macro game will tell you. I switched from Terran to Zerg, and I often had the feeling that the all-ins I could do as Terran gave me wins against players that I would've never been able to defeat in a 'standard' game. Now after about 400 games with Z (2.6k, practicing with ppl on average 300 pts higher though), I can tell you that almost every single opponent I lose to on ladder is a worse player than me doing some stupid map abuse / all-in. I watch a huge amount of replays and I've also played Protoss in beta so I have a fairly broad knowledge of how the different races compare and how skilled the player I am watching is.
I don't know if it's Zerg's lack of early scouting, the maps or just race imbalance in general. As such I (and a lot of pro-gamers) feel that all-ins are just way too strong at this point in time. I would definitely look forward to bigger maps, but as long as Blizzard can enjoy their stupid 50% statistics that seem to be the only thing they really care about and look closely at, I doubt something like this will happen (like removing Shakuras without explanation and introducing Jungle Basin the last patch).
This post is now diamonds!
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This thread basically summarizes all the frustration I feel while playing Zerg. I wish that some time soon larger maps are incorporated into the pool and I'll actually start playing more again.
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Really well put OP. While i was reading the first paragraph first thought that came into my mind was "Welcome to playing Zerg".
But yeah, everything youve said is quite true although one issue i believe you missed is the fact that the new "macro mechanics" also play a huge part by being pretty much "steroids" for their respective races giving even more power to cheese/all ins.
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Does anyone remember NaDa's mech into bio based macro-god play on Shakuras in GSL 2? Who doesn't want to see more games like that? How could anyone think that watching/doing a 2rax all-in could even compare to that style of play?
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On December 26 2010 06:34 Cheeznuklz wrote:
Does anyone remember NaDa's mech into bio based macro-god play on Shakuras in GSL 2? Who doesn't want to see more games like that? How could anyone think that watching/doing a 2rax all-in could even compare to that style of play?
Blizzard doesn't.
The maps are terrible, everyone sane knows this, and there isn't anything anyone can really do about it in terms of ladder/mainstream play because Blizzard are the gatekeepers of everything.
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I think they could in general be somewhat bigger, but i think sc2 fits this quick aggressive style of play over the old.
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yep, build order losses are insanely common due to the small maps
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Maybe blizzard wants these maps for the ladder, because they think about all league, and want the game playable for everyone. They favor one or 2 base play.
So, for me, why do not tournament like GSL take place on iccup map or other maps ?
I hope so tournament will promote other maps than the official map pool.
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On December 26 2010 06:34 Cheeznuklz wrote:
Does anyone remember NaDa's mech into bio based macro-god play on Shakuras in GSL 2? Who doesn't want to see more games like that? How could anyone think that watching/doing a 2rax all-in could even compare to that style of play?
You mean the game he got picked apart by an inferior opponent's Mutas and only won because he killed like a dozen drones early game?
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On December 26 2010 07:16 beridoxy wrote:
So, for me, why do not tournament like GSL take place on iccup map or other maps ?
The reason I have been told (by multiple people multiple times) and now Junkka has came out in public and said is Blizzard won't allow it.
So they say they want maps to be different then ladder maps, but won't allow the largest tournament in the world to use custom maps.
Discuss....
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I think they should be a little bigger but not too big or then Zerg is going to be an overwhelming race. The fact is though zerg is the race that wants to macro and sit back relax and Protoss and terran don't want them to do that and have to have some advantage to catch them off guard but not to just completely steamroll the zerg with 4 gate every game. In other words though zerg players need to have better game sense and expect something. "Prepare for the worst and hope for the best"
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On December 26 2010 07:20 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 07:16 beridoxy wrote:
So, for me, why do not tournament like GSL take place on iccup map or other maps ? The reason I have been told (by multiple people multiple times) and now Junkka has came out in public and said is Blizzard won't allow it. So they say they want maps to be different then ladder maps, but won't allow the largest tournament in the world to use custom maps. Discuss....
Ok, thanks for you answer. Sorry i didn't knew it.
I remember, that official tournaments with prize pool, needed some kind of declaration at blizzard.
Do they force other tournaments with prize pool to use official maps too ?
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Great Post! It really shows the weak resuls Zergs have still (and i believe the MUs are not broken with the actual strategies), and is a great, in-depth analysis why bigger maps are more than necessary.
The funniest things i know are maps like DQ, where i (on 2,5k Diamond) TELL the enemy Zergs, i am going 4/5-Gate, even let Zerglings slip in, and i STILL win. Honestly: This is a map where you can feel the imbalance. Normally on bigger maps, if i'm going 4Gate, i get crushed so bad because i can't play a decent 4Gate versus Zerg. ^^
And to the Terrans: I also believe, Terran is really strong lategame, just play Jinro-Style. Oh wait: You die to All-Ins from other Terrans, Zergs and Protosses ...
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On December 26 2010 07:20 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 07:16 beridoxy wrote:
So, for me, why do not tournament like GSL take place on iccup map or other maps ? The reason I have been told (by multiple people multiple times) and now Junkka has came out in public and said is Blizzard won't allow it. So they say they want maps to be different then ladder maps, but won't allow the largest tournament in the world to use custom maps. Discuss....
Why? whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?
I seriously don't understand, how does blizzard benefit from the ladder maps being used in gsl?
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On December 26 2010 07:20 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 07:16 beridoxy wrote:
So, for me, why do not tournament like GSL take place on iccup map or other maps ? The reason I have been told (by multiple people multiple times) and now Junkka has came out in public and said is Blizzard won't allow it. So they say they want maps to be different then ladder maps, but won't allow the largest tournament in the world to use custom maps. Discuss....
What's your source on this? Know you're not making it up, just want confirmation.
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Blizzard probably would like the maps to be very similar in size becase otherwise it becomes a nightmare to balance.
If the map size grows super large terran sucks on offense since it lacks Nydus and warp in reinforcement. If its is too large zergs will run wild with their macro mechanics.
The way they have built the game so far is tailored to the smaller maps currently in use and its going to be tough to overhaul that now.
Or it could be if very large maps got popular in GSL then the pros and the rest would be playing a very different game, possibly dropping interest for the more casual player/spectator.
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EPT
