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[D] Maps, too small? [replays, long]

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the p00n
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands615 Posts
December 25 2010 15:44 GMT
#1
I AM NOT TRYING TO IMPLY ANY MATCH-UPS ARE IMBALANCED WITH THE TEXT

I originally wanted to post this in blogs, but could not find the 'create topic' button. I guess it fits here as well.

Introduction (skip if in a hurry/lazy)
I'm a 2500 zerg, who isn't really improving as fast as I'd like to (aside from the misleading rating inflation caused by bonus pool). Puzzled about this, I started seaking for flaws in my game. Missing larva injects? Nope. I have plenty of games up in the 40 minutes, where I do not miss a single larva inject, I can post those if requested. Actually, I tend to not lose macro wars at all, this is especially apparent in ZvZs where the opponent has the same artillery and it really boils down to not missing larva injects, taking bases when possible, composing your army (usually roach + infestor), micro (although not very important because the units seem to do most of it for you) and experience. I know, for example, that hydralisks beat ultralisks pretty bad - some people don't, or tend to just not really think about it and go ultras 'because they are good (which I'd argue as well)'. A general trend I have seen lately is people opening with roaches early in ZvZ, mostly used defensively to block the ramp (the typical 3 roach ramp block), and a little bit later adding a few more to prevent a ling/bling all-in busting through regardless. As I open slings every game, I find myself having a very big advantage over roach openings, as I can get my 2nd hatch up faster and most early roach pressure is destroyed by pure slings, whereas I can go roaches slightly later with a much better economy. Protoss isn't that much of a problem either, typically, because sling + roach usually rapes the earliest of pushes (or just pure slings depending on their zealot/sentry count) anyway. Terran? Not much of a problem either, and muta harass seems to destroy them later on, allowing me to take multiple bases and kill them when they eventually move out.

So if I seem to not really have any problems in the games I play... why do I keep losing so fucking much? Digging in my memory, I could not find very many games (while I have in fact played very very many games) that I have lost because my opponent was better. This was according to my opinion, which is very obviously prone to bias and individual interpretation. Trying to be as objective as possible, I decided I would record my next x amount of losses and wins, and thoroughly analyze what went wrong and right in both games. I soon encountered the problem.

The problem
The games that I lose, I do not consider to be very worthwhile. I remember dismissing the first 4 losses or so to, and I quote myself, "gay random bullshit". My first game that I lost was a ZvZ - the match-up I consider my best (map: Xel'Naga Caverns). Why did I lose? My opponent rushed me with +1 roaches off 1 base, whereas I did not have enough roaches and slings. Ironically, I actually did send an overlord in, which only told me that he was getting a fairly quick lair and that he had already taking his 2nd gas. I did not get to see the evolution chamber or the rest of his roaches, which I did not see either when I ran a few lings up his ramp (I saw 5 to 7, can't remember). I followed with a lair of myself and made an extra queen at my 2nd and I get all-in'd. I lose. I tell my opponent he is awful and leave the game. I got the same opponent the next game, where he tried to do a fairly fast 1 base muta, faking a roach build. This time, I manage to scout his spire because he was noob and let a zergling through. I obviously counter it and beat him very convincingly. He ggs, but I apparently felt the need to restate that he is awful.

Second game I lost was a ZvP (Lost Temple). He 4-gated me (or at least I thought he did that until I watched the replay) on close positions and I die, even though I have 2 spines up. Turns out he did a very aggressive 3-gate push with almost all of his chrono on his gateways and c-core not taking his 2nd gas, seriously cutting probes. I did see him chronoboost his c-core twice, which he used in the wall-off, so I assumed he was doing a pretty harsh 4gate. Compared to a normal 4gate push, there were way more units, I barely hold off his initial attack but it costs me too much and I die to his second attack.

Third game I lost was ironically a ZvT (Shakuras, when it was still in ladder), making for a loss in all match-ups. I see a fast tech lab and a marauder and react accordingly, but he hid 2 starports and attacked me with 3 banshees. My queen gets caught out of position. My spire just finished, so I did not lose the game immediately, but I was behind so much it didn't really matter and I lost pretty convincingly after that. Upon rewatching the replay I was down 20 workers after that banshee attack.

Fourth game I lost was another ZvT (blistering sands, even). The guy drops blue flame hellions in my base while my army is at my natural and I lose everything. I did spot the starport right next to the factory being built, while the tech lab was on the factory so I assumed a timing push or banshees. Wrong.

Fifth game I lost was a ZvP, Delta Quadrant cross positions. I have absolutely no idea what to expect and can't get intel, so I decide to do a fairly general build that's kind of good against everything (main things I worried about were void ray and 4gate), while semi-expecting him to take down his back rocks to get a nexus up. He went blink stalkers and my roaches/spines were useless, I lose the game.

Is it really my fault?
Now I could make a topic about this on a forum (be it this forum, a clan forum or any other sc2-related forum), but I find the advice to be worthless in 99% of the cases, especially when 'scouting' is their """advice""", which is funny when I use every way of scouting possible (zerglings running up the ramp multiple times, sacrificing an overlord and sending in an overseer as soon as lair finishes) in a single game and still lose to something because I did not scout it. Another piece of useless advice could be 'mass slings would have beaten that'. I know what would have beaten that, but I also know that virtually every other opening would have beaten mass slings and I did not know he was doing that particular opening that requires mass slings. Aside from the advice being generally worthless, most people who give advice also tend to be either very stupid or fucking assholes (or worse: a combination). On all forums I visit, even the battle.net blizzard forums (aka crying bronze noob haven), hinting at imbalance is always met with animosity and on some forums (i.e. this one) even against the rules. Another common response is 'just wait until the game is more figured out and the apparent randomness will disappear', which really doesn't help me much at all now does it lol? -_- Another problem I find to have is that if I play too safe (i.e. making a lot of military units), I find myself to be fairly far behind if my opponent doesn't do an early attack.

Trying to find an answer, I summoned a 3k (at the time of writing this) zerg friend. This friend is much better than I am. To further increase the skill disparity, I would be playing my worst race (terran, whereas zerg is my best race) while he would be playing his main (zerg). We play a series of games, from which I shall post one game (he asked me not to post the others + I am not interested in hearing your 'advice' on 'what could have been done differently', while it really couldn't have been done differently, or comment on little irrelevant things like a worker being idle for 5 seconds as if you are claiming that that is the reason why I lost the game, while my opponent had 1 worker idle for 2 minutes and still had 50 marines in my base).

Game 1: Scrap station, TvZ. I open the same way as the Terran I lost to on shakuras (with the exception of also getting cloak and doing 11gas 13rax instead of the more usual 12rax 13gas), making sure he sees my marauder. I move in with 3 banshees, catch his queen out of position and manage to take down the spire before it is completed. He loses the game.

Game 2: Xel'Naga, TvZ. I wall in at the bottom of my ramp with a depot and a barracks. I don't know about you, but when I see this as a Z I usually expect a 2rax build. Instead, I tried to trick him by doing a banshee build again. He rushes me with roaches and I am unable to defend the bottom wall-in and then my base. I lose the game.

Game 3: Xel'Naga, TvZ. I open 11 gas 13 rax. He sees the reactor and factory building, then steals my gas. I do make hellions but try to go banshee as fast as possible off 1 gas. I got about 40 hp off of his 2nd queen with the hellions, as well as maybe 2 drone kills, before I lost everything to speedlings (he was obviously expecting it). My banshee and follow-up banshees kill him, he complains and leaves the game.

Game 4: Xel'Naga (yes, we got lazy with different maps), TvZ. I blatantly proxy 2 barracks a bit behind the back path to his natural, while he did hatch first. He sends out his scout at 11 (extrac trick build), but it's too late and he loses.

Game 5: Lost Temple, close air positions. I load up 2 medivacs with marines and drop them in his main. He loses the game.

Game 6: Xel'Naga, TvZ. I wall off the bottom of my ramp with a 12 rax 12 gas. I open with a quick reaper and get 5 drone kills, as he was doing an aggressive roach push again and was still chasing my scout (successfully) out of his base with 2 lings. I spot his warren with my reaper, too, so I bunker in front of my rax and make marauders, after his roach push fails he quits.

Game 7: Lost Temple, close air positions. I do a regular 2 rax, he holds it off and kills me. I lose.

Game 8 is the one I am going to post. It is also on Lost Temple, we are close positions. Here is the replay:

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/120113-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple

Now I am actually going to walk you through this replay, so I would like it if you would watch this replay (perhaps in window mode?) while having the following text ready, with the timings:

2:20 - he sees 2 barracks going down
2:45 - he sees I have not taken my right gas yet
3:10 - he sees I do not have my left gas yet
3:14 - he checks the other gas again to see if i have maybe taken it, he now knows I have not taken my gas yet, which indicates that I'll most likely be making either a lot of marines or a command center
3:15 - he takes my gas to get the SCV off the drone's tail, then cancels it and scouts the front again
3:33 - he sees 1 marine and still 2 barracks
3:43 - go to his 2nd base (his natural), you'll see he has 3 drones there prematurely and then moves them out a bit to check for SCVs or bunkers. Right now, he's afraid, because he has to decide between making drones and zerglings. Remember: he only saw 1 marine and 2 raxes,
if he makes a lot of zerglings and I, instead, make only 1 more marine or so and then a command center, he is pretty far behind. He plays it safe and makes 4 zerglings at 3.56 (open up the production tab in left corner)
3:59 - he makes another set of zerglings (6 total)
4:08 - another set of zerglings (8 total), shortly after he makes ANOTHER set of zerglings. If I had thrown down a command center right then...
4:11 - made a spine crawler (again, imagine if I had gone CC)
4:30 - I want you to pause the game and compare the worker count. Even though I'm doing an extremely aggressive strategy, I'm ahead. Once again, keep in mind what would have happened had I thrown down a CC.
5:15 - he held off the attack, which is to be expected because he prepared for it.

--

Now, the second guessing game begins. What do I do? If I'm going for banshees, he will need to get lair up in case of cloak, and then an overseer. If I'm just going to do a second all-in, he needs a bling nest and speed researched, unless I am retarded and engage on a long creep road. Or am I now throwing down a command center? Had I perhaps already thrown it down? Should he powerdrone? Put units on gas? Have I taken my gas? Will I make banshees? Biopush? Will I add marauders? Hellions? He doesn't know, so he is going to try and find out. Meanwhile, he makes a few drones (and barely catches up, with only 1 or 2 drones ahead).

--

5:27 - he wants to run up my ramp to scout, but is met by 5 marines. So essentially he scouted that I have at least 5 marines there. He plays it safe and runs back, expecting more to come.
6:00 - he realizes that nothing is probably coming and proceeds to take the watch tower for a brief second to be sure
6:08 - takes watch tower, sees nothing
6:09 - moves to my ramp
6:12 - he makes 2 drones, because there is no immediate threat + he has a spine crawler up
6:22 - he runs up the ramp to see if perhaps I was a fucking newb and placed buildings in a place where he could scout it. He sees no additional marines except the ones he saw at 5:27, so he (wrongly) assumes I am doing something that is not another marine all-in. He has just begun mining gas. spending everything on minerals and drones so far (he is 1 worker ahead).
7:12 - he sees me moving out. This is the fastest he could have seen me move out (save perhaps 1 or 2 seconds earlier if he had decided to run up my ramp again at that exact time). I kill him. """"good"""" game.

Game 9, Metalopolis close position. He agreed on playing 1 final game, even though he said (in-game as well) that game 7 would be his last. I proxy a barracks on the high ground at his mensk statue, he went 14 pool and I manage to get 2 bunkers up at the bottom of his ramp. He immediately throws down a spine crawler, but is unable to stop me from taking it down even with queen support. I decide to throw up a cc and switch into marauders as soon as I have the resources, but he already GGs.

How am I able to get 7-2 vs. a player who is 1. much more skilled than I am, indicated both by ladder points, tournament results and personal experience and 2. is playing his main race against my worst race? Not to forget, all games were fairly short, the majority under 10 minutes. Also, this is just an example with T, I'm sure the same concept can be applied with PvZ, and I'm sure that zerg has a few options as well (although obviously way less options because they are forced to build on creep and cannot block their ramp as early and effectively as T or P).

The issue: bad maps?
I think the issue is mostly the maps - the distances are too close, allowing for less reaction time. In other words, you already need to have a set amount of units out in order to counter all of the possibilities that you are unable to scout. I'm not saying everything is unscoutable - if for example I see his first barracks not having a tech lab, sure... he could have a barracks in the back with a tech lab, but I know I'm not going to face a stim biopush as early as x:xx, because that would literally be impossible due to his first barracks not having a tech lab.

If the distances were bigger, this would open the option of more macro-oriented builds but most importantly, give you less randomness and guesswork. I find that if I'm up against a toss on metalopolis in cross position, I can usually wait with making units until the very latest when he moves out of his base. He will usually grab a watch tower first, further delaying his push. I find that I can -usually- spend my round of larvae on army and be in time to fend off his attack (or not fend off, depending on skill and insight - not so much on randomness and incorrect guesswork). Ideally, the distances should be even bigger (because if I just made a round of drones I'm still fucked).

Even though this is mostly a zerg issue, the same concept applies, in some way, to TvP/PvP/TvT. The reason as to why it only applies slightly to these match-ups is because they are less easy to break and do not necessarily need a quick early second base. Protoss has sentries with forcefield, Terran has a bunker with repairing ability which is virtually impossible to break unless you have so much army and he has so little that it is hardly an 'issue', more like totally being misguided about the game and deserving to lose. Not to forget, you'll usually have a few units out and are gradually adding to that pile of units, simply due to the mechanics of the T and P race. With Z, you cannot really decide to make 1 or 2 drones with your round of army. I've tried it and have discussed it with very good zergs, it simply loses you the game and every pro not playing this style kind of reinforces that thought in my head.

With bigger maps (both air and ground distance), I feel like SC2 would be much much much better, and cancel a lot of build order wins and guessing games. What do you guys think?
RoarMan
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada745 Posts
December 25 2010 15:56 GMT
#2
I think many people would agree that Blizzard maps are way to small, the rush distances are quite small as well.

Which is why I was glad for maps like Shakuras and tbh Desert Oasis ( which itself presented some pretty cool strategies you could do.) Unfortunately Blizzard does not like these maps lol.

Sc2 is largely a game of countering and sometimes blindly due to the short distances giving little time for reaction.

I'm not saying scouting is impossible, but sometimes it does feel frustrating due to the short rush distance, it doesn't feel like you have adequate time to prepare and might be the reason why certain strategies are oriented towards ending the game in an earlier stage as opposed to large macro games we see in Sc1.
All the pros got dat Ichie.
Ragoo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2773 Posts
December 25 2010 16:09 GMT
#3
lol this is like the tenth or so thread about the bad Blizzard maps lately, and I see map complaints everywhere... yet it doesn't seem like anything will change: Please SC2 Community, unite and DO something!
Member of TPW mapmaking team/// twitter.com/Ragoo_ /// "goody represents border between explainable reason and supernatural" Cloud
prodiG
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2016 Posts
December 25 2010 16:23 GMT
#4
On December 26 2010 01:09 Ragoo wrote:
lol this is like the tenth or so thread about the bad Blizzard maps lately, and I see map complaints everywhere... yet it doesn't seem like anything will change: Please SC2 Community, unite and DO something!

Believe me dude we've been trying since the day beta patch 9 hit. Blizzard hasn't given thr mapmaking community a lot to go on here t.t

If you're looking for better matches and you have practice partners, search "iccup" on battle.net
ESV Mapmaking Team || http://twitter.com/prodiGsc || Real talk, I don't have time to sugar-coat it for you sir
ParasitJonte
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden1768 Posts
December 25 2010 16:28 GMT
#5
well, there is a map-related forum thread on the US battle.net forum posted by iccup people. No blue responses... I wish a similar thread was posted in the european forums as well.

And why didn't people bring this up in Q&A at blizzcon?
Hello=)
red_b
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1267 Posts
December 25 2010 16:55 GMT
#6
while I agree with your sentiment there is a problem; blizzard is convinced they know what they are doing to such a degree that they are not particularly interested unless its going to lead to some sort of mass exodus that will ruin their not yet revealed monetization plans.

watching steppes of war in the gsl would be like watching the dreamhack 1.6 finals start out on fy_iceworld. now that GSL isnt open, I dont see why they should use the ladder maps.
Those small maps were like a boxing match in a phone booth.
Chronald
Profile Joined December 2009
United States619 Posts
December 25 2010 16:55 GMT
#7
Very good write up. Points out many of the factual issues that these tiny maps present.

Honestly, the iCCup maps rape Blizzard's map in all holes at once. prodiG and his team have made some awesome, awesome, awesome maps.

The real reason people hate on Blizz maps is because they are the ones being used in tournies. This was NEVER the case in BW. KeSPA had their own maps for each league, which is something the Gretech and the folks at GOMtv need to get on in the new year. Just use the iCCup maps tbh, they are really really good.

Check out the maps they have, and play on some of them, your opinion of what SC2 can be will change drastically. They make it hard to play on the shitty Blizzard maps because of thoughts like, "This map is fucking small, why can't I expo more?" and such. Once the community embraces prodiG and his team, we will all be soooooo much happier.
Got that.
zDUST
Profile Joined November 2010
Finland165 Posts
December 25 2010 17:00 GMT
#8
I'm not saying there isn't an issue with the current map pool but you didn't really prove anything.

Do you really feel that your friend actually played well? The replay did not look very convincing - especially when compared to some of his play in ESL... Also, if you truly intended to show an issue with current ladder maps why not play a map you thought was actually good? Show us him winning on a 8 player large map or something? You also played Xel'naga twice (implying it's a bad map: most players think it's a very balanced map).


Keiras
Profile Joined January 2009
Czech Republic57 Posts
December 25 2010 17:07 GMT
#9
On December 26 2010 01:23 prodiG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 26 2010 01:09 Ragoo wrote:
lol this is like the tenth or so thread about the bad Blizzard maps lately, and I see map complaints everywhere... yet it doesn't seem like anything will change: Please SC2 Community, unite and DO something!

...
If you're looking for better matches and you have practice partners, search "iccup" on battle.net

I don't believe practice partners would be thrilled to play on maps which aren't used in many tourneys and therefore it's almost "not worth" playing on them. Sure, you can play few games for fun, but majority of the games played would still be on ladder maps.

As long as major tournaments use ladder map pool, there won't be many people playing other maps. And since major tours won't use custom maps, because it might be unfair for players without teams, we won't probably see the rise of alternative maps any time soon.
Blyadischa
Profile Joined April 2010
419 Posts
December 25 2010 17:23 GMT
#10
Post I made in another thread

"I think the current map pool is rubbish and is one reason that SC2 is less interesting to watch and easier to play. Look at blistering sands, then look at fighting spirit, blistering sands' ground distance from base to base was still smaller than fighting spirit. The ground distances of SC2 maps are all steppes of war compared to SC1, this leads to stronger 1 base play, stronger all ins, stronger proxies, basically stronger gimmicks. Not only are gimmicks buffed by the tiny size of the maps, but mid and late game are all made easier because each expansion progression has a direct path on every map, and expansions are too close to each other. This means 1. no REAL multi pronged attacks, 2. no multi tasking from the players, 3. expansions are less strategic (think about expansions in SC1, you could take an expansion far from your forces and their forces, and when your opponent tried to attack it, you could counter attack) and 4. AOE and splash units are severely buffed because a large amount of forces can't move anywhere without being clumped up (metalopolis comes to mind)"
Noev
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1105 Posts
December 25 2010 17:30 GMT
#11
i think the size of maps is absolutely a problem with the map pool the rush distances are to close and sometimes there is just not enough space for a long game. i also have a problem with all the extra space around the edge of the map where you can fly units or buildings i think that both of these things need to be changed in the new maps
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
December 25 2010 17:57 GMT
#12
All-ins are definitely extremely strong because of the map sizes, but with Warp Gates I feel like changing the sizes of maps would make a difference in ZvT but not any of the P matchups...
:)
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
December 25 2010 18:07 GMT
#13
Finding custom games on custom maps and getting your maps tested will be a lot easier with Chat channels, so this next patch should be good.
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
December 25 2010 18:07 GMT
#14
I believe Idra went something like 4-2 or 5-2 vs some no-name Terran? Shouldn't happen, but it does due to the maps and probably flaws in the game design : P
Writerptrk
zDUST
Profile Joined November 2010
Finland165 Posts
December 25 2010 18:33 GMT
#15
On December 26 2010 02:30 Noev wrote:
i think the size of maps is absolutely a problem with the map pool the rush distances are to close and sometimes there is just not enough space for a long game. i also have a problem with all the extra space around the edge of the map where you can fly units or buildings i think that both of these things need to be changed in the new maps


I don't think map edges (and the ability to harass mineral lines with air) are bad. All races can take advantage of this.

The biggest map/balance issue I see is that zerg have no way to use ledges. Toss have blink and colossi, terrans have tank and thors, zerg don't really have any unit that can take advantage of an opponent's natural having a ledge behind it.

DrBoo
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1177 Posts
December 25 2010 18:37 GMT
#16
On December 26 2010 01:28 ParasitJonte wrote:
And why didn't people bring this up in Q&A at blizzcon?


Because people were too busy asking how to tank drop on lost temple >,<
"DrBoo is an elaborate troll" -Pufftrees
PredY
Profile Joined September 2009
Czech Republic1731 Posts
December 25 2010 18:42 GMT
#17
On December 26 2010 03:37 DrBoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 26 2010 01:28 ParasitJonte wrote:
And why didn't people bring this up in Q&A at blizzcon?


Because people were too busy asking how to tank drop on lost temple >,<

actually im sure they talked about it
blizzard want variety in ladder mappool to test shit out (balance etc) and encourages tournament organizators to pick their own custom maps if they want to.
the problem is the tournament organizators say they don't want to use custom maps because people cant practise them (on ladder).

i believe once chat channels are out there, there can't be ANY problems finding suitable opponents for practise, therefore i'd love to if any tournament indeed picked iccup maps and started using them
http://www.twitch.tv/czelpredy
kYem
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom412 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-25 19:31:39
December 25 2010 19:30 GMT
#18
On December 26 2010 02:57 synapse wrote:
All-ins are definitely extremely strong because of the map sizes, but with Warp Gates I feel like changing the sizes of maps would make a difference in ZvT but not any of the P matchups...


and i feel that changing map sizes will kill terran.... or at least will change play style to super defensive however knowing late game terran power it's still feel like a bad choice.

P obviously dont really care that much about that as they can reinforce instantly to the battle.

while zerg have creep which is like stimmed units without additional attack rate.

Its just mean that zerg will get that creep bonus will be a HUGE factor on bigger maps + safer expos and queens will create and imbalance here....

people really forget about queens then they make a comparison to broodwar.
Hell
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
December 25 2010 19:40 GMT
#19
Atm I feel Zerg is too weak just because of the small maps. With some bigger maps Zerg wouldn't die to inferior players who do nothing but all-inning other people all the time.
Bigger maps would not favor Zerg, but they would force late game.

@QQers: Zerg is NOT overpoweder late game, the only reason why terrans think that is because their plan for the entire game ends after 2 bases. It really is like that: They sit on 2 bases forever, watch the Zerg taking the map, try to all-in, Zerg barely holds it and Terran thinks he still might win because he almost crushed Zerg and he got some MULEs back home, the game takes a few more minutes, Zerg got plenty of drones and is able to reproduce and crushes Terran. Terran goes to TL and QQs about Zerg being op late game. I personally think that Terran is overpowered late game, because Terran mech is ridiculously strong. And you can't really abuse its immobility due to the small maps.

With bigger maps the game would be WAY more balanced. Zerg is still weak and dies high rewarding easy to pull off cheese strategies all the time. Watch GSL3 Fruitdealer, NesTea and IdrA's stream if you don't believe me.
5unrise
Profile Joined May 2009
New Zealand646 Posts
December 25 2010 19:48 GMT
#20
On December 26 2010 04:30 kYem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 26 2010 02:57 synapse wrote:
All-ins are definitely extremely strong because of the map sizes, but with Warp Gates I feel like changing the sizes of maps would make a difference in ZvT but not any of the P matchups...


and i feel that changing map sizes will kill terran.... or at least will change play style to super defensive however knowing late game terran power it's still feel like a bad choice.

P obviously dont really care that much about that as they can reinforce instantly to the battle.

while zerg have creep which is like stimmed units without additional attack rate.

Its just mean that zerg will get that creep bonus will be a HUGE factor on bigger maps + safer expos and queens will create and imbalance here....

people really forget about queens then they make a comparison to broodwar.


I honestly can't see why people harbour the perception that T lategame is weak. Okay, it maybe weak if you compare it to protoss lategame, but protoss lategame, storms/ colossi/ voidray is just imba anyways. Whether zerg is strong relative to terran in the lategame would have to depend completely on what happened during the midgame, and with that the early game. If Terran failed a timing push that is designed to cripple zerg in the midgame then of course terran will be vastly behind, since that means he will have less bases and tech as he put everything into that push. If terrans early game rush fails, same story. If terrans fails these, zerg can drone up unhindered and have a large advantage. But if terran plays with a macro mindset, splitting the map while steadily building up that tank count, terran is perfectly able to compete with zerg in macro games. Remeber that although theoretically zerg can make nothing but drones if terran dont push, no zerg on earth would do that as it is a stupidly risky thing to do since the smallest amount of pressure kills you. A larger map would definitely not disbalance the tvz matchup, and in fact would make it more balanced as zergs dont autolose on x maps. Remember, terran's lategame is still more cost-efficient than zerg's (Ultras?), and any discrepency would arise only due to base counts, which terran in sc2 can easily hold and secure due to new mechanics like planetary fortresses. Dropship harass is also far more effective than sc1 due to lack of scourges, and dropship play in sc1 is already ridiculously powerful
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