EPT[D] Maps, too small? [replays, long] - Page 6
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Quagmire
Ireland50 Posts
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Gingerninja
United Kingdom1339 Posts
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
On December 30 2010 07:04 Quagmire wrote: iam not sure why everyone wants to complain about races and maps, this is a process to get to a final complete game. The maps are all different to see what happens for future maps to be made. Complaining isnt the answer its about adopting and thinking outside the box to get advantages. so suck it up gamers and enjoy wat u have to play with cuz u must have faith its all gonna come together eventually. If your claim is true then we should see that: a) vastly different maps in the current map pool b) new maps being tried out when a map is shown definitively to be bad However, we see neither of these things. a) All of the maps are tiny. If you think there is a map that isn't tiny go play on the Match Point conversion. That map is appropriately sized and if you watch the pros play on it the games are always 10x more exciting than games played on some of the current maps. b) Steppes of War is such a bad map that top level zergs are drone rushing ever TvZ. There was a map in BW that was so bad that everyone would worker rush; does anyone remember that? It was seriously tiny with really square unnatural looking bases. I think it was used for 2v2 format. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
That being said from a mostly random players point of view, ive been playing the same maps since beta and its really getting old. Some of the maps are definitely way to small, and some of the free expos like delta and basin probably sounded cool in design but really makes some match ups ridiculous. But blizzard balances the game off these maps, so it would take some effort from their end to move on to a newer larger map pool. They are the ones in the end that will take the data from whatever maps they decide to use and base game balance off of. | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
On December 30 2010 07:30 uSnAmplified wrote: Well first of all, people are to way over zealous that their particular race is broken or weak, or that some other race is to strong or whatever for the map discussion to be taken seriously. I read more whining and ranting then i do anything constructive in this thread. That being said from a mostly random players point of view, ive been playing the same maps since beta and its really getting old. Some of the maps are definitely way to small, and some of the free expos like delta and basin probably sounded cool in design but really makes some match ups ridiculous. But blizzard balances the game off these maps, so it would take some effort from their end to move on to a newer larger map pool. They are the ones in the end that will take the data from whatever maps they decide to use and base game balance off of. The reason that there's so much whining and ranting is that the game is not balanced. It's not close to balanced. The fact that everyone wants to pretend that it's balanced is idiocy. It's like denying the sky is blue. I've completely stopped laddering at this point, and I regret my choice of race. I understand that people don't want to face up to the fact that they're victories and losses are mostly a factor of mistakes in game design at this point, but that's the reality. All this bullshit about maps is just that. Drastic balance changes are necessary, they're not happening, and the racial composition of players is changing drastically as a result. It's going to keep getting worse. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more random players than zerg by spring, | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
So right now it is either losing to people hiding their units in their base and then pushing out with you having no time to react, or losing to an invincible deathball that you absolutely cannot seem to prevent with an early timing push. | ||
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imareaver3
United States906 Posts
On January 01 2011 02:41 the p00n wrote: I played the iCCup map 'Enigma' many times in 1v1 now (it's a big map) and I have to say it is not much more balanced than a blizzard map. Terran cannot counter muta harass because the bases are 1. so far apart and 2. so plentiful, and Zerg cannot counter Protoss because air/coloss or air/templar deathball > rest. So right now it is either losing to people hiding their units in their base and then pushing out with you having no time to react, or losing to an invincible deathball that you absolutely cannot seem to prevent with an early timing push. Enigma was cut from the map pool, probably for that very reason. I'd say that the remaining ICCUP maps are more balanced than it, and certainly better than Blizzard maps. | ||
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TSM
Great Britain584 Posts
On December 26 2010 01:09 Ragoo wrote: lol this is like the tenth or so thread about the bad Blizzard maps lately, and I see map complaints everywhere... yet it doesn't seem like anything will change: Please SC2 Community, unite and DO something! map threads are so common now please do something, there mmust be a representative af blizz on TL? | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On January 01 2011 02:41 the p00n wrote: I played the iCCup map 'Enigma' many times in 1v1 now (it's a big map) and I have to say it is not much more balanced than a blizzard map. Terran cannot counter muta harass because the bases are 1. so far apart and 2. so plentiful, and Zerg cannot counter Protoss because air/coloss or air/templar deathball > rest. So right now it is either losing to people hiding their units in their base and then pushing out with you having no time to react, or losing to an invincible deathball that you absolutely cannot seem to prevent with an early timing push. death balls you can fight by throwing a 200/200 army at it and then when they show up at your base defeat them with another 200/200 army. Or abuse the immobility, depending on if you want to play with brute force or brains. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 30 2010 07:14 Dental Floss wrote: b) Steppes of War is such a bad map that top level zergs are drone rushing ever TvZ. There was a map in BW that was so bad that everyone would worker rush; does anyone remember that? It was seriously tiny with really square unnatural looking bases. I think it was used for 2v2 format. You are talking about Blood Bath. Sadly it was one of Blizzard's 'better' maps, which doesn't say much. It was a lot of fun to play though from time to time if you had good players, but most of the time it would be BBS builds with scvs :o | ||
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Fizbin
Canada202 Posts
On December 26 2010 04:48 5unrise wrote: I honestly can't see why people harbour the perception that T lategame is weak. Okay, it maybe weak if you compare it to protoss lategame, but protoss lategame, storms/ colossi/ voidray is just imba anyways. Whether zerg is strong relative to terran in the lategame would have to depend completely on what happened during the midgame, and with that the early game. If Terran failed a timing push that is designed to cripple zerg in the midgame then of course terran will be vastly behind, since that means he will have less bases and tech as he put everything into that push. If terrans early game rush fails, same story. If terrans fails these, zerg can drone up unhindered and have a large advantage. But if terran plays with a macro mindset, splitting the map while steadily building up that tank count, terran is perfectly able to compete with zerg in macro games. Remeber that although theoretically zerg can make nothing but drones if terran dont push, no zerg on earth would do that as it is a stupidly risky thing to do since the smallest amount of pressure kills you. A larger map would definitely not disbalance the tvz matchup, and in fact would make it more balanced as zergs dont autolose on x maps. Remember, terran's lategame is still more cost-efficient than zerg's (Ultras?), and any discrepency would arise only due to base counts, which terran in sc2 can easily hold and secure due to new mechanics like planetary fortresses. Dropship harass is also far more effective than sc1 due to lack of scourges, and dropship play in sc1 is already ridiculously powerful @5unrise i couldnt agree more as a high ranked random diamond player. everytime i see a terran QQ about late game tvz i shake my head. usualy T think they are underpowered late game because like u said. they all in without doing enough damage then enter late game to far behind. with a macro mindset terran can keep up with zerg no problem late game. quick tech switches can fuck terran pretty good. if for example its a 200 army swap and the terran planned ahaead and built extra production buildings they can tech switch damn fast too though. i find late game terran requires much more apm then zerg does though. and is a little harder to play (i think this is just me though) . i was watching gisado KOTH lastnight and i watched all 3 days. it amazed me how much one base play i seen from terran. some games the terran wouldnt expand till he ran out of minerals at his main. against a toss who played better contained better and still lost even though he expanded 5 minutes before the terran. i had to give my head a shake. end score was something like 60k for the terran vs 80k for the toss and the terran still won. been thinking about maining as terran. one base play is funner if u average 100-150 apm. compared to late game 250 apm. bigger maps would increase the skill cap for the pro's and be better for everyone!!!! way more "wow" moments edit: @Jayrod (post below this one) although i agree with you about how he needs to improve his zerg play doesnt change the fact if the maps were better it would make for much more entertaining play. as well as a much higher skill cap. nothing funner to watch then a late game TvZ where the terrran goes mass raven... so funny watching the zerg mutas splatter all over the place and turrets owning mineral lines. so awesome. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
You need to understand that attacking at all is a gigantic risk. I think the real reason you are not improving is you have hit your plateau... I can say this with conviction based on the tone of your post. Do you really think not missing a larva inject for 40 minutes should entitle you to a win every game? Do you think that your perceived subtlety of using hydra against ultralisk means you should be a 3k diamond player? Forget the maps... believe it or not, there are other zergs playing on the same maps with higher points than you... how about you concern yourself with how they are doing better than you on the same exact maps your are subjected to? Find out how they are finding success in the same map pool. It seems to me that you are the type of guy to get on these forums here and getting into an argument about whether its more efficient to build the hatch at 13 or 14... To that I say, who cares? What you lack is either game sense or micro... At about 2500 diamond is when there aren't severe gaps in macro between players... you will get the most out of it. You are missing out on the little things... its not the maps, its you. While they may not all be great maps for zergs.. your steppes of war is my scrap station. Ive taken to just trying random shit on scrap against zerg because the game is theirs to lose. The difference is, im not sitting here complaining about how impossible it is to pressure a zerg on that map and how easy it is for them to just drone up. I know it is, and since id rather grow as a player than complain or 4 gate every single game, im going to keep trying new things... things extricated from having solid macro. Honestly solid macro is the first thing you would be expected to master as a zerg... there are so many fewer variables in zerg macro than the other two races. Those few variables are maybe more important, at least in the very early game, but there is alot less to think about.. .Its how many drones can i build and still not die... thats in a nutshell what it means to play zerg up until the 6 minute mark. Theres nothing clever about it and the only complicated question is, did i make enough units... and based on what i scouted could i have reasonably known. game sense game sense game sense.... a sense that true gamers have. Game sense can carry you to your level with less than perfect macro. Perfect macro can also carry you to your level.... if you combined both of those things you get to the next highest level. Just accept like the rest of us that you're just not that fucking good quite yet and work to improve without being so vindictive | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On January 01 2011 03:08 StarStruck wrote: You are talking about Blood Bath. Sadly it was one of Blizzard's 'better' maps, which doesn't say much. It was a lot of fun to play though from time to time if you had good players, but most of the time it would be BBS builds with scvs :o worker rushing and 2v2? I'm pretty sure he's talking about DMZ. | ||
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Mooncat
Germany1228 Posts
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NearPerfection
232 Posts
Secondly, if there is actual imbalance, you will see it being exploited almost universally by professionals with great success, even lower tier professionals being higher tier professionals using the same exploit. Looking at Steppes of War in comments, player sentiment, and casting etc. Currently when listening to amateur and mid-high level players talk about Steppes, the same thing is repeated over and over again, Zerg is so disadvantaged on Steppes of War its going to be sooo easy for X race player to win. Yet in Steppes of War replay listings Zerg wins on Steppes more often than not. My advice is to watch the replays of Zerg winning on the map only, copy what their early game build order was, and how they reacted to what they scouted. Timing attacks, unit positioning etc. Even when taking to account the "achievement factor" where Steppes of War Zerg wins would be more posted. If imbalance was actually discovered yet there should be far fewer Zerg wins. And watching the games where Zerg wins/loss, a wide array of strategies are used against Zerg, rather than some dominating single strategy on the same map that would support a closer look on the balance of the map. These kinds of threads are starting to get really annoying for top players to read or even post anything to. I know this sounds cruel but please leave balance discussions for people who actually play on a level where imbalance can be found. Complaining that in US Diamond 1v1 if Protoss Warps in a Void Ray between the 5:10 and 6:40 minute mark they have a 65% chance of winning is stupid because it doesn't say anything about real balance. | ||
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