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Assumptions - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
December 17 2010 23:14 GMT
#61
On December 18 2010 08:06 Treadmill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2010 06:34 archangel967 wrote:
On December 18 2010 06:29 KevinIX wrote:

- For having a healthy economy you should allways produce workers
- Zealots are good vs Zerglings
- Maps with short rush distances are bad for Zergs
- Large Maps are good for Zergs
- Protoss have the strongest lategame army
- Bunkers are for free
- Island expansions are easy to defend
- For fighting off cloack banshees or DTs you need detection
- Zerg units are less costeffective
- Mutalisks counter Zealots
- Cheese ends games fast
- Creep spreading is allways good
- High Templar are support units
- Defending is allways easyer than attacking
- Expanding lets you keep an advantage
- All-ins are easy to pull off


I guess you can call these assumptions, but this isn't what I have in mind when I trust an "assumption". Instead, I "assume" these:


- If you plan on playing a late-game macro game, you should always produce workers
- Zealots are good vs Zerglings, if the Zerglings can not get a full surround.
- Maps with short rush distances are bad for Zergs in a standard game.
- Large Maps are good for Zergs in a standard game.
- Protoss have the strongest lategame army [I don't believe this is true.]
- Moving bunkers is for free
- Island expansions are easier to defend against a heavy ground based army.
- For fighting off cloak banshees or DTs with minimal losses and to prevent future harass, you need detection
- Zerg units are less costeffective [I don't believe this is true]
- Mutalisks counter Zealots
- Cheese ends often games fast
- Creep spreading is always good
- High Templar are support units
- Defending is allways easyer than attacking [I don't belive this is true]
- Expanding lets you keep an advantage
- All-ins are easy to pull off [I don't belive this is true]

I consider these to be facts.


Now you're adding context to each of the statements which actually gives us something specific to talk about!!!


Yeah, I think that the whole point of the OP is that all of the 'assumptions' we make really rely on context. If your opponent has a lot of zerglings, zealots are a good unit to have to beat them. But if he has ONLY zerglings, then he's probably getting mutas soon and zealots will soon be less useful.

Here's one: if you see a colossus (tvp) you need to get vikings before you can deal with them. If the protoss is going 1-base colossus, though, its better to simple pump out a decent number of marauders and just roll the toss, especially if he then tries to expand. He simply won't have enough units to defend.

One that really bothers me is the whole "hellions RAPE zerglings/zealots/insert light units here". Yeah they do huge damage, especially with blue flame, but they only shoot about once every other month. Speedlings are the best way to catch and surround hellions - and when they are surrounded, they're only shooting one ling at a time, and they're almost certainly going to die even against an equivalent value of slings to hellions.


I like you came up with the hellions are good vs zerglings/zealots assumption. I actually made some tests and chargelots tear hellions apart in small numbers until 12-14 units. So in that context blue hellions are only good vs chargelots when they can get good flanks or when something tanks damage for them because throwing down a ton of factories to match the chargelot count doesnt seem like a good idea. But then again: Thats only an assumption
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
Silmakuoppaanikinko
Profile Joined November 2010
799 Posts
December 17 2010 23:23 GMT
#62
On December 17 2010 23:23 KevinIX wrote:
Some of those assumptions are actually facts.
Not really:


- For having a healthy economy you should allways produce workers
I don't know, I don't produce workers when I place my 9 pylon or my 14 pool down or what-not, I'd say having a pool or not getting myself supply blocked at that point would be detrimental to my economy in the end. So hey, you shouldn't "always" produce workers.
- Zealots are good vs Zerglings
I don't know, when the zerg players has been pumping upgrades and is 3/3 for ground + crack, and I'm maxed at air, do you mind if I use carriers instead? Hey, another counter example.
- Maps with short rush distances are bad for Zergs
I'd say that Novice Steps of War is pretty zerg favoured
- Large Maps are good for Zergs
Lost temple?
- Protoss have the strongest lategame army
Quite general and subjective, do I even need to comment
- Bunkers are for free
Absolutely not, because there is inflation in StarCraft economics, this is what you really have to look out for when saying 'you can get it back' or 'paying for itself', money gradually loses its value as the game progresses.
- Island expansions are easy to defend
Also against a Terran who siege-shells you from across the ridge?
- For fighting off cloack banshees or DTs you need detection
Never tried fungal growth, EMP, storm, using splash, baneling autodetonate?
- Zerg units are less costeffective
The queen too?
- Mutalisks counter Zealots
Except that mutalisk dps is so low that in a 200/200 situation you'd wish you have something else that can also stop the zealot march of death before it kills of all your buildings.
- Cheese ends games fast
There have been enough 6pools who did severe economic damage but didn't end the game, prompting both players to basically start from scratch again.
- Creep spreading is allways good
I don't know, my 2v2 Terran ally once got annoyed with that he couldn't build stuff anymore because of my creep.
- High Templar are support units
What kind of support is a storm drop, what unit are they supporting?
- Defending is allways easyer than attacking
Not with mutalisks
- Expanding lets you keep an advantage
Or your expansion gets taken out just when it finishes.
- All-ins are easy to pull off
You try going 4gate blink stalker against Idra one day.

There, a counter-example to every situation, admittedly some of these are quite far-fetched but some are also quite reasonable situations showing that you don't want to think strictly into these rules at all times.
Workers and town centres are the ultimate counter to turtles.
Offhand
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1869 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-18 00:02:36
December 18 2010 00:02 GMT
#63
^^ Hyperbolic counterexamples don't really prove your point.

Think all-ins are easy? Well then BEAT IDRA. Ha! Just disproved that one, /smug.
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
December 18 2010 00:11 GMT
#64
but his counterexamples are intelligent and funny nontheless
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
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