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[B]\
- Mutalisks counter Zealots
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Wat. That's from the Day9 (sarcastic) school of thought my friend. If they don't have anything that aims up, it MAKES ME INVINCIBLE!!! A lot of these are indeed facts. (Creep spreading is always good? of course it is! It's freeeeeee!!!!)
The one assumption that I see is that bunkers are free. While this is practically true, building some random bunker on the map (say you're bunker rushing) can set you back early game. It's just like engi-blocking a natural. It still costs minerals until you salvage/cancel it!
High Templar are support units : Yes they are. That's obvious. You cant just run around storming everything. In fact, what I see a lot (It saddens me) is inflated templar counts. A player will see his gas go up and say "Oh i guess it's time to buy more Templar!" Although really they could be doing a lot of different things with that gas and not having a bunch of useless units lying around (after all, you only need 3-6 storms per engagement, depending on scale). Sentries are a big one. People don't truly realize how EPIC sentries still are lategame. This STILL prevents marauders from kiting you, go figure. Also, *late game* there really aren't many dark templar running around like in BW. If you have a sufficient amount of ht, can't you just make some dts and do some harass? Of course this is assuming you're doing the *NOT* stupid thing and going for templar b/c they're infinitely better than collosus imo.
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An assumption is not something that is always untrue. It is also not even necessary that it is ever untrue. An assumption can also be a truth, it is just something you assume for your theory to work (Using theory as a broad term for pretty much anything). Now, for your theory to work, the assumptions have to be true, since the theory is built upon them being true. If you find out that your assumptions are untrue, you need to work on your theory.
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you know, OP, your post has really changed my perspective of starcraft. maybe i've been playing based on assumptions like those too much.
do we really need drones to mine minerals?
do we really need a barracks to build marines?
do we really need to build pylons to get more supply?
can zerglings really only hit ground?
i used to assume so, but maybe that isn't the case.
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On December 18 2010 02:57 universalwill wrote:
you know, OP, your post has really changed my perspective of starcraft. maybe i've been playing based on assumptions like those too much.
do we really need drones to mine minerals?
do we really need a barracks to build marines?
do we really need to build pylons to get more supply?
can zerglings really only hit ground?
i used to assume so, but maybe that isn't the case.
Man i don't think you guys understand what the OP is trying to get at. Obviously all the things that you are stating are true. He is trying to break some of the misconceptions which could NOT be true. Such as you don't ALWAYS have to be building workers to have a greater economy. You don't NEED detection to beat cloaked units. That is completely different to do we really need drones to mine minerals.
(Which btw you don't you can use scv,probes,mules)
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scan costs 270 minerals
lolz
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Ok, people are taking the OP completely the wrong way. I like this post because it makes you challenge decisions that people make based off of assumptions and what is true in most "normal" scenarios. It's good to think out why these assumptions are often true and when they can sometimes be false. If you're armed with that knowledge, you can react according to the situation.
Liquid Tyler just had an excellent point of when you shouldn't expand. A possible scenario (at least for zerg) for not making continuous drones is if you expanded early but are being rushed. Larvae are precious, if you pump out enough lings to defend, your drone cutting will still result you in being up an expansion. Once the rush has been blocked, drone up and you'll find yourself magically ahead.
At least in ZvZ, creep spread is not necessarily always good. If you're army is super mobile (lings+mutas) and your opponent is going roach hydra, maybe creep spread will help him more than you.
Other stuff has been covered by other people. I think the main thing to take away is to always question why you do the things you do.
I have another that day9 kind of explored: zergs should always make queens ASAP.
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On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- For having a healthy economy you should allways produce workers
Cutting worker production means you aren't trying to expand/macro anymore.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Zealots are good vs Zerglings
They are.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Maps with short rush distances are bad for Zergs
They are if you 15 hatch.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Large Maps are good for Zergs
They are if you 15 hatch.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Protoss have the strongest lategame army
If protoss can expand and tech freely the whole game.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Bunkers are for free
Moving bunkers is free.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Island expansions are easy to defend
True, against T or P.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- For fighting off cloack banshees or DTs you need detection
The number of effects that can stop cloaked units that aren't detection are minimal and generally a waste of said effect (like blowing a bunch of storms to kill dts or something).
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Zerg units are less costeffective
Offset by the ease of which zerg can gain map control and expand.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Mutalisks counter Zealots
True. Is the protoss tech option capable of holding off mutas?
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Cheese ends games fast
Normally.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Creep spreading is allways good
Yes, except maybe in ZvZ.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- High Templar are support units
HTs are garbage alone. Warp-ins with kaydarin only work when the other person is oblivious to it.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Defending is allways easyer than attacking
Defending normally allows both easier reinforcing and easier positioning.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Expanding lets you keep an advantage
If your expansion is easily defended and your army value advantage is significantly higher then just 400/300 minerals.
On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- All-ins are easy to pull off
Most set BO all-ins don't require any effort from a macro perspective because you never have to think to make workers/supply/expansions. Most all-ins are just big micro-focused timing attacks without any follow through.
How many of these assumptions were you actually calling into question? Almost all of these are true.
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On December 17 2010 23:55 LittleeD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 23:46 Fa1nT wrote:
[...]
- For fighting off cloak banshees or DTs you need detection
----- Fact...
[...] Ghosts work as well. EMP And I believe Fungal Growth hits invisable targets as well?
emp and fungal reveal (so they count as detection?), also exploding banelings and target firing splash can be good
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 18 2010 03:28 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- For having a healthy economy you should allways produce workers
Cutting worker production means you aren't trying to expand/macro anymore. They are. Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Maps with short rush distances are bad for Zergs
They are if you 15 hatch. They are if you 15 hatch. Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Protoss have the strongest lategame army
If protoss can expand and tech freely the whole game. Moving bunkers is free. Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Island expansions are easy to defend
True, against T or P. Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- For fighting off cloack banshees or DTs you need detection
The number of effects that can stop cloaked units that aren't detection are minimal and generally a waste of said effect (like blowing a bunch of storms to kill dts or something). Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Zerg units are less costeffective
Offset by the ease of which zerg can gain map control and expand. True. Is the protoss tech option capable of holding off mutas? Normally. Yes, except maybe in ZvZ. HTs are garbage alone. Warp-ins with kaydarin only work when the other person is oblivious to it. Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Defending is allways easyer than attacking
Defending normally allows both easier reinforcing and easier positioning. Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 23:19 clickrush wrote:
- Expanding lets you keep an advantage
If your expansion is easily defended and your army value advantage is significantly higher then just 400/300 minerals. Most set BO all-ins don't require any effort from a macro perspective because you never have to think to make workers/supply/expansions. Most all-ins are just big micro-focused timing attacks without any follow through. How many of these assumptions were you actually calling into question? Almost all of these are true.
I think the OP was pointing how each of the things that you pointed out as being true had a conditional. Cheese normally ends games quickly but it you do enough damage but don't outright kill your opponent it is possible to transition into a normal macro game. Spreading creep is good except maybe in ZvZ.Small maps are bad for Zerg if the zerg 15 hatches. Defending normally allows both easier reinforcing and easier positioning.
One of the most recent assumptions that I saw broken in GSL was oGsMc vs TLAF-Liquid'Jinro, I forget which map. Jinro was expanding to his natural and had two bunkers filled with Marines/Marauders infront of it. Artosis said "MC will probably back off right now because Jinro is pretty safe" (paraphrasing), but MC attacked and won the game.
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While watching the Iccup.tv 49 hour event, the Maynard was playing, and had some very interesting strategies.
With all the standard 2rax aggression, zergs are already playing somewhat defensively;
Maynard was able to take down some fairly good players by pulling off a very fast expansion in TvZ and actually creating a planetary fortress at his natural, leading into a very quick third.
"Is an OC always necessary for the natural?" A PF can provide exceptional defense and guarantees that you won't lose that expansion early on, possibly worth the foregone cost of not building an OC, this possibility is usually just disregarded based on the assumption that the OCs benefit is so great that all other alternatives aren't worth it. Maybe it isn't worth it, but it could be worth looking into in more situations.
+ Show Spoiler [Second, possibly more controversial] +The assumption that getting zergling speed ASAP is absolutely necessary in ZvT/ZvZ. in ZvT, at least, if you don't see 2rax pressure, maybe you could skip speed and go for a quicker lair to get really fast lair tech, infestors specifically. The infestors should be out by the time a midgame push comes out, able to cripple medivac-less armies; this could be less possible in ZvZ since baneling/speedling/roach aggression comes very fast. Fast infestors have a lot of potential, even if not just 'rushed' to, since they are one of the most cost efficient units in the game.
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On December 18 2010 04:00 Ichabod wrote:While watching the Iccup.tv 49 hour event, the Maynard was playing, and had some very interesting strategies. With all the standard 2rax aggression, zergs are already playing somewhat defensively; Maynard was able to take down some fairly good players by pulling off a very fast expansion in TvZ and actually creating a planetary fortress at his natural, leading into a very quick third. "Is an OC always necessary for the natural?" A PF can provide exceptional defense and guarantees that you won't lose that expansion early on, possibly worth the foregone cost of not building an OC, this possibility is usually just disregarded based on the assumption that the OCs benefit is so great that all other alternatives aren't worth it. Maybe it isn't worth it, but it could be worth looking into in more situations. + Show Spoiler [Second, possibly more controversial] +The assumption that getting zergling speed ASAP is absolutely necessary in ZvT/ZvZ. in ZvT, at least, if you don't see 2rax pressure, maybe you could skip speed and go for a quicker lair to get really fast lair tech, infestors specifically. The infestors should be out by the time a midgame push comes out, able to cripple medivac-less armies; this could be less possible in ZvZ since baneling/speedling/roach aggression comes very fast. Fast infestors have a lot of potential, even if not just 'rushed' to, since they are one of the most cost efficient units in the game.
This is a great point especially since Zerg units don't cloak and burrowed ones can't attack while cloak. You do sacrifice Muling but as long as you stay even/ahead of the Zerg in expos you should be in good shape and you will have better defense at the natural.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 18 2010 04:05 archangel967 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 04:00 Ichabod wrote:While watching the Iccup.tv 49 hour event, the Maynard was playing, and had some very interesting strategies. With all the standard 2rax aggression, zergs are already playing somewhat defensively; Maynard was able to take down some fairly good players by pulling off a very fast expansion in TvZ and actually creating a planetary fortress at his natural, leading into a very quick third. "Is an OC always necessary for the natural?" A PF can provide exceptional defense and guarantees that you won't lose that expansion early on, possibly worth the foregone cost of not building an OC, this possibility is usually just disregarded based on the assumption that the OCs benefit is so great that all other alternatives aren't worth it. Maybe it isn't worth it, but it could be worth looking into in more situations. + Show Spoiler [Second, possibly more controversial] +The assumption that getting zergling speed ASAP is absolutely necessary in ZvT/ZvZ. in ZvT, at least, if you don't see 2rax pressure, maybe you could skip speed and go for a quicker lair to get really fast lair tech, infestors specifically. The infestors should be out by the time a midgame push comes out, able to cripple medivac-less armies; this could be less possible in ZvZ since baneling/speedling/roach aggression comes very fast. Fast infestors have a lot of potential, even if not just 'rushed' to, since they are one of the most cost efficient units in the game. This is a great point especially since Zerg units don't cloak and burrowed ones can't attack while cloak. You do sacrifice Muling but as long as you stay even/ahead of the Zerg in expos you should be in good shape and you will have better defense at the natural.
Maybe with the lead you get from early expanding you can build a third in-base OC and get a further lead? haha just theory-crafting at this point.
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On December 18 2010 03:12 travis wrote:
scan costs 270 minerals
lolz
And all zerg buildings cost infinite minerals 
On December 18 2010 04:00 Ichabod wrote:While watching the Iccup.tv 49 hour event, the Maynard was playing, and had some very interesting strategies. With all the standard 2rax aggression, zergs are already playing somewhat defensively; Maynard was able to take down some fairly good players by pulling off a very fast expansion in TvZ and actually creating a planetary fortress at his natural, leading into a very quick third. "Is an OC always necessary for the natural?" A PF can provide exceptional defense and guarantees that you won't lose that expansion early on, possibly worth the foregone cost of not building an OC, this possibility is usually just disregarded based on the assumption that the OCs benefit is so great that all other alternatives aren't worth it. Maybe it isn't worth it, but it could be worth looking into in more situations. + Show Spoiler [Second, possibly more controversial] +The assumption that getting zergling speed ASAP is absolutely necessary in ZvT/ZvZ. in ZvT, at least, if you don't see 2rax pressure, maybe you could skip speed and go for a quicker lair to get really fast lair tech, infestors specifically. The infestors should be out by the time a midgame push comes out, able to cripple medivac-less armies; this could be less possible in ZvZ since baneling/speedling/roach aggression comes very fast. Fast infestors have a lot of potential, even if not just 'rushed' to, since they are one of the most cost efficient units in the game.
I think assumptions like these are the ones we should be thinking about.
Does the expansion CC need to be an orbital?
Do you really need zergling speed ASAP?
Does zerg always need to be a base up on t/p?
Does protoss need to go collosus?
Is lair tech needed for anti air?
[Thats all I can think of right now]
There are a lot of ideas that are thrown around as fact but aren't always true, and there are a lot of things we do just because... but do they need to be done? When you actually think about it, it's pretty apparent it isn't needed. Obviously a zerg can use queens/spores for anti air, but usually you see zergs tech to spire/hydra ASAP when it might be possible to play a little greedier and just rely on the queens/spores.
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Here's another one.
"Zerg needs to have two bases to compete with Terran and Protoss."
On December 18 2010 03:56 [ur]Chin wrote:
Cheese normally ends games quickly but it you do enough damage but don't outright kill your opponent it is possible to transition into a normal macro game.
The daily Day9 did on this a couple days ago was pretty cool. I wouldn't exactly call that game a "normal" macro game, but it was close enough.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 18 2010 04:12 Baby_Seal wrote:Here's another one. "Zerg needs to have two bases to compete with Terran and Protoss." Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 03:56 [ur]Chin wrote:
Cheese normally ends games quickly but it you do enough damage but don't outright kill your opponent it is possible to transition into a normal macro game.
The daily Day9 did on this a couple days ago was pretty cool. I wouldn't exactly call that game a "normal" macro game, but it was close enough.
TLO vs Huk game 2 @ MLG Dallas comes to mind. TLO 6 pools and "transitions" into 3 base vs 2 base win. Fun game to watch.
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- For having a healthy economy you should allways produce workers
- Zealots are good vs Zerglings
- Maps with short rush distances are bad for Zergs
- Large Maps are good for Zergs
- Protoss have the strongest lategame army
- Bunkers are for free
- Island expansions are easy to defend
- For fighting off cloack banshees or DTs you need detection
- Zerg units are less costeffective
- Mutalisks counter Zealots
- Cheese ends games fast
- Creep spreading is allways good
- High Templar are support units
- Defending is allways easyer than attacking
- Expanding lets you keep an advantage
- All-ins are easy to pull off
I guess you can call these assumptions, but this isn't what I have in mind when I trust an "assumption". Instead, I "assume" these:
- If you plan on playing a late-game macro game, you should always produce workers
- Zealots are good vs Zerglings, if the Zerglings can not get a full surround.
- Maps with short rush distances are bad for Zergs in a standard game.
- Large Maps are good for Zergs in a standard game.
- Protoss have the strongest lategame army [I don't believe this is true.]
- Moving bunkers is for free
- Island expansions are easier to defend against a heavy ground based army.
- For fighting off cloak banshees or DTs with minimal losses and to prevent future harass, you need detection
- Zerg units are less costeffective [I don't believe this is true]
- Mutalisks counter Zealots
- Cheese ends often games fast
- Creep spreading is always good
- High Templar are support units
- Defending is allways easyer than attacking [I don't belive this is true]
- Expanding lets you keep an advantage
- All-ins are easy to pull off [I don't belive this is true]
I consider these to be facts.
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On December 18 2010 06:29 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +
- For having a healthy economy you should allways produce workers
- Zealots are good vs Zerglings
- Maps with short rush distances are bad for Zergs
- Large Maps are good for Zergs
- Protoss have the strongest lategame army
- Bunkers are for free
- Island expansions are easy to defend
- For fighting off cloack banshees or DTs you need detection
- Zerg units are less costeffective
- Mutalisks counter Zealots
- Cheese ends games fast
- Creep spreading is allways good
- High Templar are support units
- Defending is allways easyer than attacking
- Expanding lets you keep an advantage
- All-ins are easy to pull off
I guess you can call these assumptions, but this isn't what I have in mind when I trust an "assumption". Instead, I "assume" these: - If you plan on playing a late-game macro game, you should always produce workers - Zealots are good vs Zerglings, if the Zerglings can not get a full surround. - Maps with short rush distances are bad for Zergs in a standard game. - Large Maps are good for Zergs in a standard game. - Protoss have the strongest lategame army [I don't believe this is true.]- Moving bunkers is for free - Island expansions are eas ier to defend against a heavy ground based army.- For fighting off cloak banshees or DTs with minimal losses and to prevent future harass, you need detection - Zerg units are less costeffective [I don't believe this is true]- Mutalisks counter Zealots - Cheese ends often games fast - Creep spreading is always good - High Templar are support units - Defending is allways easyer than attacking [I don't belive this is true]- Expanding lets you keep an advantage - All-ins are easy to pull off [I don't belive this is true]I consider these to be facts.
Now you're adding context to each of the statements which actually gives us something specific to talk about!!!
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On December 18 2010 04:28 [ur]Chin wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 18 2010 04:12 Baby_Seal wrote:Here's another one. "Zerg needs to have two bases to compete with Terran and Protoss." Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 03:56 [ur]Chin wrote:
Cheese normally ends games quickly but it you do enough damage but don't outright kill your opponent it is possible to transition into a normal macro game.
The daily Day9 did on this a couple days ago was pretty cool. I wouldn't exactly call that game a "normal" macro game, but it was close enough. TLO vs Huk game 2 @ MLG Dallas comes to mind. TLO 6 pools and "transitions" into 3 base vs 2 base win. Fun game to watch.
I really like this example because it seems to contradict to some generally made assumptions. I think TLO is a player who experiments alot. Often he will get (mostly) useless information from this (like: when you neural parasite a zerg egg then it dies) but sometimes he comes up with new tactics or strategies and everyone likes him for that.
What I also think is that one can beat others by using the fact that he makes assumptions. I dont know how to call it. Mindgames? Metagaming?
I also think that a ton of subtle concepts that I/you/we use are not true 100% of the time. A small change in a buildorder that first doesnt seem optimal but has ingenuity in it is maybe a consequence of not assuming something.
In the other hand I stand by the fact that we need to make a lot of assumptions because they make us more solid players and casters so we can learn one thing at a time.
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On December 18 2010 06:34 archangel967 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 06:29 KevinIX wrote:
- For having a healthy economy you should allways produce workers
- Zealots are good vs Zerglings
- Maps with short rush distances are bad for Zergs
- Large Maps are good for Zergs
- Protoss have the strongest lategame army
- Bunkers are for free
- Island expansions are easy to defend
- For fighting off cloack banshees or DTs you need detection
- Zerg units are less costeffective
- Mutalisks counter Zealots
- Cheese ends games fast
- Creep spreading is allways good
- High Templar are support units
- Defending is allways easyer than attacking
- Expanding lets you keep an advantage
- All-ins are easy to pull off
I guess you can call these assumptions, but this isn't what I have in mind when I trust an "assumption". Instead, I "assume" these: - If you plan on playing a late-game macro game, you should always produce workers - Zealots are good vs Zerglings, if the Zerglings can not get a full surround. - Maps with short rush distances are bad for Zergs in a standard game. - Large Maps are good for Zergs in a standard game. - Protoss have the strongest lategame army [I don't believe this is true.]- Moving bunkers is for free - Island expansions are eas ier to defend against a heavy ground based army.- For fighting off cloak banshees or DTs with minimal losses and to prevent future harass, you need detection - Zerg units are less costeffective [I don't believe this is true]- Mutalisks counter Zealots - Cheese ends often games fast - Creep spreading is always good - High Templar are support units - Defending is allways easyer than attacking [I don't belive this is true]- Expanding lets you keep an advantage - All-ins are easy to pull off [I don't belive this is true]I consider these to be facts. Now you're adding context to each of the statements which actually gives us something specific to talk about!!!
Yeah, I think that the whole point of the OP is that all of the 'assumptions' we make really rely on context. If your opponent has a lot of zerglings, zealots are a good unit to have to beat them. But if he has ONLY zerglings, then he's probably getting mutas soon and zealots will soon be less useful.
Here's one: if you see a colossus (tvp) you need to get vikings before you can deal with them. If the protoss is going 1-base colossus, though, its better to simple pump out a decent number of marauders and just roll the toss, especially if he then tries to expand. He simply won't have enough units to defend.
One that really bothers me is the whole "hellions RAPE zerglings/zealots/insert light units here". Yeah they do huge damage, especially with blue flame, but they only shoot about once every other month. Speedlings are the best way to catch and surround hellions - and when they are surrounded, they're only shooting one ling at a time, and they're almost certainly going to die even against an equivalent value of slings to hellions.
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I like the post a few pages back where someone stated that A-to-G units do not always counter pure ground units. Technically, one void ray can kill 10 immortals (for example). However, 10 immortals can kill a Protoss Base pretty damn fast. In that case, I'd rather have zealots, if solely for the fact that the immortals would be shooting them for long enough for warping cooldown to finish. Likewise, if I had only zealots and the opponent hits my mineral line with mutas, base racing with my zealots may allow them to counter the mutalisks by forcing them home to kill them.
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EPT
