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Infusing Cash into Starcraft 2 - Page 8

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hmunkey
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom1973 Posts
December 14 2010 15:06 GMT
#141
On December 14 2010 14:24 avidday04 wrote:
One more thought to all the people saying that newbs wont ever enter these tournaments because they know they have a zero chance of winning, that's flatly not true at all. A lot of what makes tournaments appealing is the fun of it! I'll use my own poker example for this one:

At the place I used to work at my manager decided to start having poker nights at his house with $20 buy in. There were usually 4-6 tables with 6 people each. Some of these people were avid poker players and I almost never played poker at all. In fact it was my first time learning Texas hold 'em to be honest. Even though I knew my chances of even getting to the last table were slim I still went several times because of the fun of it!

That is completely untrue. In Poker, luck plays a massive role -- sometimes entire games can be decided on a few lucky hands and completely bypass skill. That's why it's considered gambling -- anyone can potentially win on 2-3 huge hands and be insignificant all game beyond that.

In SC, you have match after match where luck players a much more trivial role. Sure, you can get a lucky flank or cheese and keep in unscouted, but good luck doing that against 4-5 separate players in BO3s to get to the top, especially considering some of those players will always be pros.

Basically, your logic is completely flawed.
WindOw
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Sweden407 Posts
December 14 2010 15:10 GMT
#142
On December 14 2010 14:12 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
Imagine, for a moment, that you are a young, aspiring poker player. You've played several home games and find yourself consistently beating your friends. Feeling on top of the world, you decide to venture into the world of online poker. Not wanting to get in too deep, too fast, you start with small $5 sit-n-gos on Pokerstars or Fulltilt.

STOP!

In the world of poker, a good player here might begin to gradually earn money and build bankroll. They may never sit across Phil Ivey, or out-read Negreanu, or put a play on Dwan, but this person could legitimately earn a small amount of cash over time by playing poker, even if he is never good enough to move up to high stakes games.

However, if the world of poker were anything like the world of Starcraft 2, this good player would never win a single tournament in his entire life. Why? All of the $5 and $10 sit and go tournies would be won by the world's best poker players. The average (or even well-above-average) poker player would likely never cash in any tournament because all of the world champions of poker would be dominating the lower stakes.

This happens every single week with the Starcraft 2 tournaments. The amount of skill chasing such few dollars is absolutely ridiculous. I've taken a small sample from just 4 small-cash tournaments that happen on a regular basis around here:

Undeniable Tournament
+ Show Spoiler +
1 - Murder - $50
2 - Murder - $75
3 - Fenix - $100
4 - Fenix - $75
5 - Select - $75
6 - dignitasSjow - $75
7 - Taurent - $100
8 - Fenix - $100
7 - dignitasSjow - $100
8 - ROOTDrewbie - $100
9 - dignitasSjow - $100
10 - ROOTDrewbie - $100
11 - kawaiirice - $100
12 - dignitasSjow - $100

Wolf Cup
+ Show Spoiler +
2 - MorroW - $50
3 - KawaiiRice - $50
4 - HuK - $50
5 - KawaiiRice - $50
6 - MorroW - $50
7 - Fenix - $50
8 - MorroW - $50
9 - MorroW - $50
10 - Fenix - $100
11 - Zelniq - $200
12 - TTOne - $50
13 - Fenix - $50
14 - Levin - $50

Craft Cup
+ Show Spoiler +
1 - mouzStrelok - $50
2 - mouzStrelok - $50
3 - aTnSocke - $50
4 - NightEnD - $50
5 - NightEnD - $50
6 - SjoW - $100
7 - merz - $50
8 - aTnSocke - $120
9 - SjoW - $150
10 - SjoW - $150
11 - SjoW - $100
12 - tarson - $100
13 - Naugrim - $100
14 - sLDeathAngel - $150

Go4Sc2
+ Show Spoiler +
1- Cloud - 200 EUR
2- Tarson - 200 EUR
3 - SjoW - 200 EUR
4 - Naama - 200 EUR
5 - Brat_OK - 200 EUR
6 - GoOdy - 200 EUR
7 - SjoW - 200 EUR
9 - MaNa - 200 EUR
10 - MaNa - 200 EUR
11 - Tarson - 200 EUR
12 - Socke - 200 EUR


These tournaments are all being won by some of the best players in the world. When I talk about "the best", I'm not talking about top-tier people like Idra, Ret, or Jinro, I'm talking about anyone who would make the top 200 (or even 300 or 400) list of any region. Compared to the number of people who play Starcraft 2 (3 million copies sold in the first month), these people represent a very small percentage (<0.05%) of the overall Starcraft 2 community.

This brings me to the "meat" of my problem with the current Starcraft 2 tournament scene....there's too much talent chasing too few dollars. There's just no money in it.

Now, I understand that there are plenty of people out there who say that the game should be played simply for the love of the game and that there's no reason that money should be a part of it, but if it could be, why not? When so many people are clamoring for Starcraft 2 to be taken seriously as an "E-Sport", and with so many eyes on the game (between Teamliquid web hits, stream viewers, professional match series observers, etc...etc...), why couldn't there be more money involved?

I think the single most detrimental problem afflicting the Starcraft 2 tournament scene is that there's simply no money going into it. The best players in the world are winning $50 tournaments. Much the same as my earlier example, it would be like a decent poker player enrolling in small-stakes online tournaments, simply to discover that the best poker players in the world are constantly sweeping every single event.

I believe the solution to this problem would be weekly buy-in tournaments. The Starcraft 2 community needs to stop relying on companies like Razer or individuals to donate money to prize pools in order for there to be any decent money for a prize pool. There would be a tremendous infusion of excitement and possibility for all Diamond players if small buy-in tournaments were to be popularized.

Imagine a 64 player, $10 buy-in tournament. With only 64 players involved, you have over $600 in the prize pool. You could go 400/200 for 1st/2nd, or even pay out some decent sized prizes to the top 4. With just 64 players (at $10 a player) you have a tournament with a larger prize pool than 99% of the tournaments currently posted on TL.

Poll: Would you pay $10 USD to play in a Starcraft 2 Tournament?

Yes (819)
 
68%

No (382)
 
32%

1201 total votes

Your vote: Would you pay $10 USD to play in a Starcraft 2 Tournament?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No



If you include a rake in the tournament, all of a sudden there are millions of possibilities. Imagine that it's set-up similarly to poker rake, where the tournament hosts would keep a small percentage of the buy-in. $10 tournaments would be $9 into the prize pool and $1 into the rake. There are an almost limitless amount of possibilities that could spawn from that rake, including, but not limited to:

- People paying casters to cast their tournaments
- Websites being supported by more than constantly plugging products or begging for donations
- Teamliquid taking a small percentage of tourney rakes that they advertise, giving them money to pay coders/webdesigners
- More incentives for sponsors or advertisers to get involved
- People being more interested in taking lessons from top-tier gamers

I understand there are some boundaries to initially setting this up. Paying $10 for tournies where you have almost no chance of winning is discouraging. But if these tournies continue for a while, ideally the best players would be playing in better tournaments. It's the same way with poker today. Negranu and Ivey and Hellmuth don't play in small stakes because it's a waste of time for them. They'd much rather play in the larger stake games. If there were a lot of money in Starcraft 2 games from people paying to enter tournaments, the $5 and $10 tournaments would receive no interest from top players. They would be playing in the $25, $50 and $75 tournaments.

I know there are a lot of potential hurdles to this (local gambling laws, Blizzard's tournament registration policies, how money would be transferred), but I would really like to see the communities response to this idea. I know, from personal experience, that there ARE people out there willing to put SOME money into this game. I've seen it in the form of donations and I've seen it in people paying for lessons. As always, keep trolling/flaming to a minimum, constructive thoughts only, blah blah blah, love you.

~Destiny

EDIT: Popular responses...

Show nested quote +
The best players are playing in small prize tournaments all the time, as is the point of the whole thread. If a player is ranked 100 in the top 200 and there's a 32 man or 64 man tournament with a $25 or $50 buy in, do you think that player is going to play in a 5 or 10 dollar tourney with a higher chance of winning or pay a lot more with a lot worse odds?
I know this is going to come up a lot, so let me explain how free market principles dictate who plays in which tournaments.

If there were three different tournies at the same time every Friday, one at $5, one at $25, and one at $100, you would only be able to play in each one. At first glance, you might think, "Wow, Idra or Huk are just going to register and roll one of the smaller tournies, this sucks!" But think about it from Idra or Huk's perspective. How would you feel if you were one of the top gamers in the world and you saw that you were taking $200 prizes easily in smaller tournaments only to find that 2000 rated Diamond players were winning $4000 for 1st place finishes in larger ones? I think this would only need to happen ONCE before pro gamers quickly moved to the higher buy-in tournaments.

It would be foolish for top tier players to waste their talents in lower buy-in tournaments if other players of much lesser skill began to win large sums of money in the higher tournaments.

Show nested quote +
Blizzard won't allow it legal gambling herpes blah blah blah
I understand there may be legal boundaries to this, but I'm not interested in those right now. I'm just interested in gauging the community interest/response. If tens of thousands of people are in favor of an idea, they will find a way to make it happen. And if there's an opportunity for blizzard to generate more interested for a game, and some income from it, too, such as taking a small percentage of the rake of all the tournaments, I couldn't see them saying no. But that's an entirely different discussion altogether.


I know what you're saying, but still... Most of those tours are weekly, and if you add upp alll those tours every week with the money they bring its actually quite a lot.
AKA WindOw[InCa] (BW) | TheMisT (SC2) | NaNiwa FC founder
DreamSailor
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada433 Posts
December 14 2010 15:13 GMT
#143
On December 14 2010 23:53 strongandbig wrote:
Just finished reading through the thread. A few thoughts:

TLDR Version:
- buy in tournaments for SC don't violate general gambling laws - in USA at least.
- exclude pros on teams from most smaller buy-in tournaments so different ppl win.
- use APM comparison to old ladder games or tournament-specific placement games as easy smurf detection.

------------
Full version:


1. At least in America, I think the "it's gambling that's illegal" argument is wrong. The law distinguishes between "games of chance" and "games of skill," and paying an entry fee (or equivalently, betting on yourself) is legal for "games of skill." There was a famous court case about whether betting in poker is legal or not; the pro-poker side presented a bunch of statistical evidence that the more experienced or "better" player (evaluated in some objective way) would beat the "worse" player consistently over the long term, and the court found that poker is a game of skill, so betting on it doesn't violate general gambling laws. Starcraft is a game of skill much more clearly than poker. (Some states have specific laws against betting on poker or against online poker, but AFAIK none do against starcraft.)

2. One way to make tournaments more viable for mid to high diamond players is to exclude salaried pros on teams from most of the lower-money buy-in tournaments. These guys have reputations and jobs on the line, so they have an incentive not to smurf. As for lower tiers, you could have tournament "placement matches" instead of just using BNet tiers to determine what section of the tournament someone gets placed into. (Higher tiers could get a higher percentage of the prize pool so ppl won't throw placement matches.). Then you can compare someone's APM in their placement and tournament games with SC2Gears as a simple form of smurf detection. Or you could ask them to submit a replay of an old ladder game in their BNet league and compare APM to that.

3. From actually reading the whole thread, it's painful how many times the same things get repeated. If anyone else says "oh no blizz TOS" or "oh no but top players will win everything" without adding anything new I will sigh and cast longing glances over to the mods.



There is still a huge discrepancy in mid to high diamond. Excluding salaried pros would just encourage people to not bother with teams if they are going to consistently win these more numerous, lower pool tournaments (Especially if they are online, it makes travel fare zero) (EG: If there are ~200 100 dollar tournaments a year, and you win half of them, thats 10,000 dollars but if you go compete in the GSL, you have the potential for 86,000, but could also not get anything if you fail to get to the semi-finals). It is also unreasonable to think that most tournaments wouldn't be streamed or have VODS made available, and people -want- to see their favorite players play, and win. By having named players, it helps to make the sponsors/hosts some cash from advertising and the like, which would, in the future make more tournaments available.

Using "APM" is honestly, a laughable method of diving players into groups. It is so easy to conceal your power level by playing slower when you know your opponents aren't at the same level as you.

LAN tournaments are good, but not everyone will be able to make it to one. Travelling costs could be a breaker for some players. Team sponsorship helps to alleviate some of this, but again, its still costs.

Pro players, despite being the best of the best, lose (Some seemingly only when it really matters). Huge tournaments are a good thing for businesses and sponsors, but honestly, not great for the players involved (Unless you are winning of course). From my understanding, Pro's actually don't get a huge amount of money for themselves. So betting ~100 of your own dollars where you could lose right away may not sit well.

I'd do it, but I'm not playing the game as my potential career path. I'm doing it for fun, and the possibility of winning and the experience would be worth the 100 for me, no different than going to the Casino with 100 and expecting to lose it for a night of fun.
Where ever you go, there you are.
Proto_Protoss
Profile Joined September 2010
United States495 Posts
December 14 2010 15:16 GMT
#144
I would be willing to pay 5$ call me cheap but if i wanted to go to a tournament and get my ass kicked i may as well just donate money to tournament.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up everytime we do." - Confucius
z00t
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia976 Posts
December 14 2010 15:27 GMT
#145
While it's true that StarCraft 2's tournament scene and infusion of money isn't quite comparable with something as established as poker, I'm still smarting from how dismally Rise of Legend's tourney scene failed to take off, so I feel pretty grateful that SC2 at least has a tourney scene, even if it is a bit dominated by these few top-tier individuals.

I think that in theory, your idea could work, Destiny, but I don't think that there are enough people interested to make it happen...at least not in the immediate future. I myself admittedly fall into the category of not being willing to pay $10 to participate in such a tourney . I'm better than average (low Diamond), but of course, that means my skill isn't high enough to seriously compete in even a relatively small-stakes tournament, such as the ones you're proposing =/.
Deckkie
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands1595 Posts
December 14 2010 15:32 GMT
#146
I like the idea. But I wouldnt say three tournaments in the weekend. You should just pay like 10 bucks and then u can enter different tournaments. so if I want I could enter 10, 1 dollar tournaments. And if there is lets say a 64 person tournament is should just be open till there are 64 people and start imediatly. (just like poker). Also there should be one on one for money!!

I would difinatly play
Always look on the bright side of life
palexhur
Profile Joined May 2010
Colombia730 Posts
December 14 2010 15:47 GMT
#147
Just charge for the stream and get some sponsors like in GSL, it is the best way to do it. In your system, at the beggining will be a lot of players, but after those players get kicked in the ass every tourney (after playing only one or two games, which could mean only 10 minutes easily), they are going to be discouraged and it will decline fast. Attract sponsors from the community with things like if you donate some amount you can play two games vs the winner or something like that, another thing is that usually in this kind of games people play for fun and if you can do it for free even in tournaments, what is the incentive for paying when you know that you are not going to win?.
BGrael
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany229 Posts
December 14 2010 15:51 GMT
#148
If you would hand out the money relatively early, I think mediocre players would participate. Let's say you enter a tournament, and after the first round you win 1/2 of you buy in. If you win the second round, you get 1/1 of you buy in back, etc. This would allow huge prize sums for the tournament winner, while giving an incentive for players to participate, because they only have to win a few rounds to get some or all of their money back with a shot at winning a lot more. Of course the tournament would need to be big, like more than 500 people, so that a mediocre player has a shot at winning even one round.
k20
Profile Joined September 2010
United States342 Posts
December 14 2010 15:53 GMT
#149
I dont really understand the thread. If I were as good as those dudes I'd sign up for all these tournaments. It's free money and everyone loves money
Najda
Profile Joined June 2010
United States3765 Posts
December 14 2010 16:00 GMT
#150
I think these buy-in tournaments would be much more appealing if something like the top 8 payed out, so you have a much larger chance of atleast not losing money. For example first would be like $300 then 2nd $150 3rd and 4th $50 5th-8th $10 or something along those lines. The idea would be if you place top 8 then you aren't losing money, and I think people would be a lot more comfortable with those odds.
DNA61289
Profile Joined August 2010
United States665 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 16:42:15
December 14 2010 16:14 GMT
#151
I dont really understand the thread. If I were as good as those dudes I'd sign up for all these tournaments. It's free money and everyone loves money

K20 he's saying that the pros wouldn't play the smaller prize pool tournies because if they did then players from lower levels would win the bigger ones. So, it would be a complete waste of time for them.

Overall, I love the idea. This can go so far, but can only be hampered by the community. If people are serious about making money off SC then this should work. I don't understand the argument that you can't compare SC and poker because poker has a "luck" factor in it. It's called calculated risk, and it happens in SC as well. When someone goes all in or does a cheese build you are taking a gamble.

I would pay 10$ to get into a buy-in, and anyone who can afford to or has half a brain should as well.

Edit: Also, on more thing I would like to point out is that the people who invest the most into the game will more then likely get something out of it. Also, this will also increase the demand for couching, since people will want to get better and have a increase chance of winning. So a low to mid diamond player or even a plat player pays 20$ for couching and then 10$ the entry fee and then wins say 200 or 300 dollars that is a significant return on your investment. So, to win a possible 25$ dollar buy in he pays another 40$ for couching. So, this will stimulate the amount of money that is going into SC. So, the pro player, while making money off tournies can also make some on the side as a couch.

So it comes down to the will to invest time and money into the game. If, some is serious about getting good and wants to make some money then they will undoubtedly see a return.
But yeah being a Korean gamer is very imba. If you're a non-korean gamer you have to balance your game playing with earning money and your real life. If you're Korean you just sit around playing games all day eating 2 cent ramyun and becoming gosu.
Keitzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2509 Posts
December 14 2010 16:15 GMT
#152
id rather these people not be allowed... because cmon, when ANYONE can join... not one person below top 200 is going to win. NO ONE!
I'm like badass squared | KeitZer.489
Special Endrey
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1929 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 16:22:00
December 14 2010 16:21 GMT
#153
I believe the solution to this problem would be weekly buy-in tournaments.



why need a solution when there is no problem - i think its fine as it is right now :|
This signature is ruining eSports - -Twitter: @SpecialEndrey
CatsPajamas
Profile Joined October 2010
United States337 Posts
December 14 2010 16:27 GMT
#154
I think that, given the right circumstances with driven people behind it, an idea like this would take off. Destiny, I sent you a PM, as a lot of points aren't relevant to the thread. However, I do believe that this can not just succeed, but thrive.
http://twitter.com/kevinknocke
Xeris
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Iran17695 Posts
December 14 2010 16:31 GMT
#155
Your numbers for those tournament winners are wrong.
twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~
Neeka
Profile Joined October 2010
United States49 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 17:04:57
December 14 2010 16:35 GMT
#156
I haven't read all the posts, but I don't see the gambling issue presented here.

I'll use professional golf as an example. Below the top tier tournaments, there is a mini-tour called the Hooters Tour. These are the guys that don't have status on the major tours and are trying to make a name for themselves.

On the Hooters tour, the entry fee for EACH tournament is between $900 to $1500. That doesn't include living costs for the week either. All together it comes out to around $2,000 to play in a week long tournament.

Usually the first place prize is $30,000 - $40,000 depending on the pool. A typical tournament field has about 150 golfers. The tournament is 4 days and there is a "cut" after 2 days to reduce the field to around 70 golfers. If you make the cut, you get paid. Usually, to make a profit on the week you need to come in the top 20 or so.

Is this gambling?

If paying $10 for a starcraft tournament is gambling, how come playing golf on the Hooters tour is not?

"To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems." -Homer Simpson
DreamSailor
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada433 Posts
December 14 2010 16:36 GMT
#157
On December 15 2010 01:14 DNA61289 wrote:
Show nested quote +
I dont really understand the thread. If I were as good as those dudes I'd sign up for all these tournaments. It's free money and everyone loves money

. I don't understand the argument that you can't compare SC and poker because poker has a "luck" factor in it. It's called calculated risk, and it happens in SC as well. When someone goes all in or does a cheese build you are taking a gamble.


The "luck" in Poker is that you have zero control in the hand you get.

If you are dealt 2 7's and your opponent is dealt 2 queens and then the shown cards have a queen and a seven as the only significant cards. You will lose, 100% of the time.

You can beat any strategy in Starcraft2 by catching it early and responding accordingly. Proxy gates or Canon rushes can be beaten with good control, the same cannot be said about Poker.
Where ever you go, there you are.
Keitzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2509 Posts
December 14 2010 16:44 GMT
#158
On December 15 2010 01:36 DreamSailor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2010 01:14 DNA61289 wrote:
I dont really understand the thread. If I were as good as those dudes I'd sign up for all these tournaments. It's free money and everyone loves money

. I don't understand the argument that you can't compare SC and poker because poker has a "luck" factor in it. It's called calculated risk, and it happens in SC as well. When someone goes all in or does a cheese build you are taking a gamble.


The "luck" in Poker is that you have zero control in the hand you get.

If you are dealt 2 7's and your opponent is dealt 2 queens and then the shown cards have a queen and a seven as the only significant cards. You will lose, 100% of the time.

You can beat any strategy in Starcraft2 by catching it early and responding accordingly. Proxy gates or Canon rushes can be beaten with good control, the same cannot be said about Poker.



but poker doesn't end with 1 deal.
I'm like badass squared | KeitZer.489
ChewbroCColi
Profile Joined July 2009
Denmark108 Posts
December 14 2010 16:48 GMT
#159
I completly agree with OP and I remember someone else posting about this during the beta (I think it was Morrow but I'm not too sure).

The thrill of having money on the line makes for much more exciting competition both for the spectator and the player.

I played poker some time ago but only very low stakes and the excitement of just winning a very little amount of dollars kept it interesting for me. ^^

I hope this post gets the attention it deserves and that we can move Starcraft towards becoming an even better E-Sport.
Neeka
Profile Joined October 2010
United States49 Posts
December 14 2010 16:51 GMT
#160
We just need a movie like "Rounders" or "Hackers" to come out for Starcraft. Remember when "Hackers" came out so people could think hacking was some rebel-cool thing with hot chicks and arcade games?

"To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems." -Homer Simpson
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