EPTI didn´t often get problems with early marines. (i´m a zerg player). Even scout, an be happy.
The Problem with Marines - Page 22
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_Aurus_
Germany6 Posts
I didn´t often get problems with early marines. (i´m a zerg player). Even scout, an be happy. | ||
AlphaIIOmega
Canada29 Posts
But he's also correct about late game. Thors and vikings are inadequate AA. Viking loses to both void ray AND phoenix in combat situations. And you can't just say "micro your vikings", because when your army is being attacked head on by zealot/sentry supported by phoenix/void ray.... you can't just run your vikings away. If you do, your army gets owned and it's GG. Thus you must stay and fight, and your vikings just get raped. Marines fill too many crucial terran roles, especially in anti-air. The fact that they are just demolished after mid game makes terran late game weak. | ||
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Panoptic
United Kingdom515 Posts
Terran has no real alternatives. | ||
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donkkk
44 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On December 11 2010 19:06 Panoptic wrote: This thread could just as easily be titled "The Problem with Thors". The marine is a versatile unit. What other unit has the same versatility? None. In BW it was perhaps the goliath, but alas, the thor is quite unlike the goliath. If the thor were more like the goliath then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Terran has no real alternatives. The alternative could be to use more specialized units... like the other races do  If every unit was good against every unit in every situation, it would be a little boring. Having to scout, and then make more specialized units based on what you see is part of what makes the game interesting. | ||
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Wochtulka
Czech Republic66 Posts
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CryMeAReaper
Denmark1135 Posts
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TrzystaDrzew
Poland72 Posts
On December 11 2010 21:04 CryMeAReaper wrote: It's like saying that lings are too core for zerg -_- You are rather troll or moron. I do not know. | ||
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Scoop
Finland482 Posts
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casshern
United States29 Posts
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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TrzystaDrzew
Poland72 Posts
[B]On December 11 2010 21:34 casshern wrote:[Q/B] what is this? what rank are all of you? marines are marines, they're not overpowered early game and they're not weak late game. a unit is only as strong as the player who controls it, marines included. Quality of TL posters really makes me sad. I strongly recommend you reading main post as it seems you did not. What is more I will give you short version of it if you got problems with reading more than 50 words. "Marine is strong early game and easy to counter late game. Despite you agree with that or not due to marine universality there is no good army composition for Terran without marines." | ||
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Minsc.and.Boo
Israel2 Posts
On December 11 2010 21:34 casshern wrote: what is this? what rank are all of you? marines are marines, they're not overpowered early game and they're not weak late game. a unit is only as strong as the player who controls it, marines included. Seriously... "A unit is only as strong as the player who controls it".. where have you been lately? With this quote, u are saying that all units are.. what? i dont get it. you sound like a lame movie kung fu instructor... | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
In BW marines were not that great because psi storm and lurker/swarm countered them even harder than anything counters marines now, but by the same token terran could replace a marine hoard with vulture/goliath/tank and get better bang for his buck. What can a terran replace his marine hoard with now? Thor/tank/banshee is not nearly as strong and well rounded as vulture/goliath/tank was. Thor/tank/banshee/viking/raven might be but that's a LOT of different buildings you're starting to need just to replace 1 unit from the most basic building. Moreover, blizzard probably doesn't want us to replace marines and might even consider it a design flaw of BW that bio is never used in tvt or tvp and has even been replaced by mech on many maps in tvz. They probably WANT the marine to remain the core of the terran army. Hence the op's second suggestion, which is making some way to protect marines from the aoe units that rape them. Vikings to counter colossus and ghosts to counter hts and brilliant micro to counter banelings sounds nice in theory, but in practice we have seen so far that most of the time terrans are not able to stop zergs and tosses from raping their marine ball once they have a decent number of marine-ball-countering units out, and then terran gets owned in late game (after dominating early game). I do think it might be fixable by adjusting the marine's upgrades a little bit though. Perhaps making marine shields a late-game upgrade that's stronger would help. Perhaps a late game upgrade to the medivac allowing them to heal faster or something would help. One thing I've never understood is why medivacs don't heal units they pick up. Bio units in a medivac should be automatically healed over time imo. But that's another story. Anyways, good op and a good summary of what's wrong with tvx matchups right now. | ||
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Scoop
Finland482 Posts
On December 11 2010 22:33 Hautamaki wrote: Very good op, definitely finding myself agreeing with all this. Despite people bringing up zerglings, zealots, or whatever, there is no other unit for either other race that is the equivalent of the marine. Zerglings and zealots not being able to attack air being the most obvious reason. In BW marines were not that great because psi storm and lurker/swarm countered them even harder than anything counters marines now, but by the same token terran could replace a marine hoard with vulture/goliath/tank and get better bang for his buck. What can a terran replace his marine hoard with now? Thor/tank/banshee is not nearly as strong and well rounded as vulture/goliath/tank was. Thor/tank/banshee/viking/raven might be but that's a LOT of different buildings you're starting to need just to replace 1 unit from the most basic building. Moreover, blizzard probably doesn't want us to replace marines and might even consider it a design flaw of BW that bio is never used in tvt or tvp and has even been replaced by mech on many maps in tvz. They probably WANT the marine to remain the core of the terran army. Hence the op's second suggestion, which is making some way to protect marines from the aoe units that rape them. Vikings to counter colossus and ghosts to counter hts and brilliant micro to counter banelings sounds nice in theory, but in practice we have seen so far that most of the time terrans are not able to stop zergs and tosses from raping their marine ball once they have a decent number of marine-ball-countering units out, and then terran gets owned in late game (after dominating early game). I do think it might be fixable by adjusting the marine's upgrades a little bit though. Perhaps making marine shields a late-game upgrade that's stronger would help. Perhaps a late game upgrade to the medivac allowing them to heal faster or something would help. One thing I've never understood is why medivacs don't heal units they pick up. Bio units in a medivac should be automatically healed over time imo. But that's another story. Anyways, good op and a good summary of what's wrong with tvx matchups right now. My heart just jumped when I read that. Medivacs need a buff are you kidding me? They should be nerfed if something. Drop ability should be an upgrade from fusion core. | ||
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HiHiByeBye
Canada365 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:19 LoLAdriankat wrote: I was on a losing streak the other day, so I went rage Terran and massed marines out of 3 orbitals and 10 raxes. Honestly, you don't have to be Foxer to snipe banelings. Stim and a-move dance off creep... I raged too and went zerg and 2 base baneling bust every game vs terran. easy 10-0 | ||
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
there are just so many nerds here that have nothing else to do than complain about the game when they find something they don't like newflash this game is not made to suit you or anyone in that matter, create a poll and see how many people have "a problem with marines" this type of discussion is wasting everybodys time | ||
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mati
Argentina114 Posts
Very interesting thoughts (only read the first topic with all the quotes and responses, to lazy to ready tons of crappy non-sense arguments :p) I always found weird that the only Air unit terran got that can shoot air AND ground, is slow as hell, and with a very small range so can be so easily kited... When you analyze terran units, most of them seem "specialized" on one kind of job wich they do very well (sometimes to good, but thats not the point of this topic), but with serious lack of versatily except for the marine... For example; banshees, they are REALLY REALLY good, the problem like you stated, is that you cannot focus on a banshee army, with out adding some cool AA, and then you army start to grow to mixed and complicated... And so most terran end up depending on marines... Zerg and protoss got lot of 3 unit (and even just 2) type mix that can work out great on many situations (even with out speedling or sentrys), while terran can only do this when one of thouse 3 units are marines... For real, for any readers... Try to make a mental excersice to desing a army build with out marines... You will need like 5-6 units types... Wich isnt a bad thing (sometimes protoss and zerg does so), but shouldnt be a must! I think this seem to be a game-core problem for terran, than just a balance/desing... And also i think that we wont get any kind of real fix until the expansion with new units come along. But for the time being, maybe making Thor more usefull with more expensive upgrades, to prevent early game thor rush be OP, while making them more viable for late game... And for real get something done about the BattleCruiser ASAP... Has anyone ever make one on GSL? Also i would like to see Reapers to be usefull again... i didnt like the previous ultra early agresion version, but now they seem pointless (except for some scouts) | ||
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NightHawk929
79 Posts
Toss and zerg don't have this problem, since stalkers aren't nearly as vulnerable as mariners, and zerg can mass almost any one of their units and get away with it. I actually read a thread on another forum saying that bringing goliaths back would be a good solution to this problem, since they would provide a late game alternative to massing marines. | ||
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:15 Zerokaiser wrote: I nicer approach would be to make maps where Zerg can get a spine crawler up before a 2rax all-in. I think the map pool is more at fault than the marine. It's a fantastic unit, but let's get some bigger maps before we start fucking with the foundation of the terran arsenal. If other's can hold it off with out a spine crawler, why can't you? | ||
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