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On January 06 2011 08:53 Wilkiag wrote:
sry again but im trying to use the way-points to get out a stalkers two zealots and a sentry by a certain time then so on till the end where i have in the army i want with the upgrades but it is not giving anything past the first way-point......i guess i am really screwing this up. do u have to click on the upgrades u want in every way point or does it remember also do u need to add the units up? if i want 7 zealots by way point 3 and 1 on way-point 1 do i need to put 6 in way-point 3 and then 7 in target or what? thanks again for the help and the work u put into this.
I'm rather confused by what you want. You don't need to select what you want for every waypoint - put it in an early waypoint and it will basically be automatically included in the later waypoints.
I suspect the problems you're having are probably due to having a too restrictive time limit on an early waypoint so it fails to achieve that and basically stops processing the other waypoints.
Can you give the details of what you're requesting for each waypoint and what the output is that you're getting?
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ok i think i get it now. thanks for the help
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I would like to see an option to prohibit the programm from using "call down extra supplies". 
It will take longer to get where you want then of course, but I need MULES every single time I can get them.
Moreover, to make it more easy to execute the build:
An option: "Always have 3 workers in gas."
Another thing I think would be good:
You give the programm a beginning of a build order and it has to finish it up to the target the fastest way. I tried that with waypoints but it didn't work how i wanted to.
I hope you understand me properly; English is not my motherlanguage.
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Hi and thanks for the great work.
I saw that so many people are interested in YABOT output format but it's true that there's not a lot of information on it.
So I decided to try to understand how it worked to help you to implement it. Unfortunatly I only worked on Protoss race for the moment. I'll try to decode zerg and terran later. What I have done is certainly not perfect but I think it can be a good start for you.
As the explanation is quite long and there are some conflict with BB codes, I uploaded a text file on megaupload : [url blocked]
Sorry for my english, if you don't understand some parts of my file don't hesitate to let me know 
Thanks again for the great work
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On January 06 2011 18:11 graNite wrote:I would like to see an option to prohibit the programm from using "call down extra supplies". It will take longer to get where you want then of course, but I need MULES every single time I can get them. Moreover, to make it more easy to execute the build: An option: "Always have 3 workers in gas." Another thing I think would be good: You give the programm a beginning of a build order and it has to finish it up to the target the fastest way. I tried that with waypoints but it didn't work how i wanted to. I hope you understand me properly; English is not my motherlanguage.
Yeah being able to select "always have 3 on gas" would be nice. On the other hand, I think the greatness of this program comes in that it shows you things you wouldn't have otherwise known. For example, this program says to call down supplies quite often when I would have thought you should never do it. When you think about it, you save 100 minerals for building the depot, plus all the mining time the SCV has to spend walking over there and building it, plus its easier to call down supplies than to spend the apm click an scv, building a depot somewhere, and shift clicking him back (not that that's hard or anything). If you start getting too picky and telling it that you only want mules, you're really going to miss out on some things that might actually be better than what you're telling it to do. Sure, the mules would be better in the long run SOMETIMES, but maybe not always.
Better example: if you do this for Zerg and set waypoint 1 to a 14 pool, you're automatically excluding any builds where you get a pool earlier. Let's say that the best build is actually a 9 pool with a really early queen (I'm not saying this is the best... just that it COULD be), you would never know.
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On January 06 2011 22:22 Turtle36 wrote:Hi and thanks for the great work. I saw that so many people are interested in YABOT output format but it's true that there's not a lot of information on it. So I decided to try to understand how it worked to help you to implement it. Unfortunatly I only worked on Protoss race for the moment. I'll try to decode zerg and terran later. What I have done is certainly not perfect but I think it can be a good start for you. As the explanation is quite long and there are some conflict with BB codes, I uploaded a text file on megaupload : [url blocked] Sorry for my english, if you don't understand some parts of my file don't hesitate to let me know Thanks again for the great work
Wow, that is fantastic. This is exactly what I need. I'll start working on the YABOT format very soon.
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I love how people are using this to find better faster ways to get out builds, then as soon as the program tells them to do something they wouldn't normally try they instantly go NOOO that CAN'T be good, it isn't standard!.
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I didn't say it isn't good; I just want to make it easier for me to perform the build.
The program is right when it tells me to call extra supplies for a faster execution, but I want to call down MULEs because the game won't end when the build order is done. The program can't consider that and I want to.
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Ok, I've added in YABOT output for Protoss, however I'm at work atm and so I don't have a connection for Starcraft 2 on my laptop, so I can't actually test any of the output with YABOT. I'm hoping somebody will be able to test it out for me
You can access the v9.0 alpha version from the downloads page: http://code.google.com/p/scbuildorder/downloads/list
Note that the YABOT format option will be available for all races, but the output won't work for Zerg & Terran.
Here's an example of the output for a 5 stalker with warpgate build:
<Key name="SCBuildOrderResult">
<Value string="100 [i] scbuildorderresult | 7 | CarbonTwelve | Build order developed by SCBuildOrder [/i] [s]8 100 0 34 1 0 27 0 | 8 150 0 63 1 0 24 0 | 10 75 0 94 1 0 19 0 | 11 179 3 128 1 0 20 0 | 12 150 61 158 1 0 24 0 | 12 115 98 178 1 3 26 0 | 12 125 66 187 1 1 24 0 | 14 230 84 223 1 1 24 0 | 16 155 50 231 1 1 24 0 | 18 107 22 243 1 0 27 0 | 18 197 82 274 1 2 2 0 | 18 197 82 274 1 2 2 0 | 18 261 101 284 1 1 24 0 | 20 136 51 284 1 1 24 0 | [/s]"/>
</Key>
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On January 07 2011 05:42 dmillz wrote:
I love how people are using this to find better faster ways to get out builds, then as soon as the program tells them to do something they wouldn't normally try they instantly go NOOO that CAN'T be good, it isn't standard!.
yes, but the difference between extra supplies and mules is that mules give more money, but over a long timespan, while extra supplies safe 100 minerals immediately. therefore, extra supplies sometimes are better at maximizing the speed of a bo towards a certain goal, but in the long run they will almost always be inferior to mules...
what is much more important imho is the ability to specify the need to scan. atm, the bo builder assumes that orbital energy is always available for mules or supply, but in reality almost any build involves scanning the opponent within the first three available orbital actions.
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On January 07 2011 07:37 CarbonTwelve wrote:Ok, I've added in YABOT output for Protoss, however I'm at work atm and so I don't have a connection for Starcraft 2 on my laptop, so I can't actually test any of the output with YABOT. I'm hoping somebody will be able to test it out for me You can access the v9.0 alpha version from the downloads page: http://code.google.com/p/scbuildorder/downloads/listNote that the YABOT format option will be available for all races, but the output won't work for Zerg & Terran. Here's an example of the output for a 5 stalker with warpgate build: <Key name="SCBuildOrderResult">
<Value string="100 [i] scbuildorderresult | 7 | CarbonTwelve | Build order developed by SCBuildOrder [/i] [s]8 100 0 34 1 0 27 0 | 8 150 0 63 1 0 24 0 | 10 75 0 94 1 0 19 0 | 11 179 3 128 1 0 20 0 | 12 150 61 158 1 0 24 0 | 12 115 98 178 1 3 26 0 | 12 125 66 187 1 1 24 0 | 14 230 84 223 1 1 24 0 | 16 155 50 231 1 1 24 0 | 18 107 22 243 1 0 27 0 | 18 197 82 274 1 2 2 0 | 18 197 82 274 1 2 2 0 | 18 261 101 284 1 1 24 0 | 20 136 51 284 1 1 24 0 | [/s]"/>
</Key>
That's almost perfect. I just tested it and there are three mistakes. First it seems important to have a space between [s] and 8 . If not the pylon instruction is not recognised.
Second at the end of the code before [/s] you should remove the pipe
Finally it seems impossible to change the Key name. I thought it was possible... So you have to keep the instruction used in YABOT file like
<Key name="BuildOrder25">
here it is the result of your build order in yabot :
+ Show Spoiler +
Thank you again
EDIT :
I just realised that you didn't write any informations (in comments for instance) about chronoboosting units or probes or warpagate research. Maybe you can add something like
12 115 98 178 1 3 26 0 Chrono_twice
By the way, the last number isn't for comments. Actually I don't for what purpose it is. If you want to add comments you should write it after the last number (like in my example)
+ Show Spoiler +
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Is there any kind of similar build order optimizer for Brood War?
Thanks.
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On January 07 2011 17:15 Turtle36 wrote:That's almost perfect. I just tested it and there are three mistakes. First it seems important to have a space between [s] and 8 .
Just started testing with YABOT and I've noticed this one also, thanks.
Second at the end of the code before [/s] you should remove the pipe
I don't think this one actually matters. It makes the coding a fair bit easier to leave it in, so I think I might just leave it.
Finally it seems impossible to change the Key name.
Yep, also fixed this, and it makes sense - YABOT has to look up the values by their key name, so can't really change it and expect YABOT to find it.
I just realised that you didn't write any informations (in comments for instance) about chronoboosting units or probes or warpagate research. Maybe you can add something like 12 115 98 178 1 3 26 0 Chrono_twice By the way, the last number isn't for comments. Actually I don't for what purpose it is. If you want to add comments you should write it after the last number (like in my example) + Show Spoiler +
This sort of thing is a little tricky with the way the output code works atm. For now I have to line up each command so all of them are printed basically the same, and printed straight after the last one - can't really do that with info about chrono boosts. I want to redo the output system anyway (probably with the new GUI) so I might reinvestigate then.
Incidentally, I've noticed that the demo mode in YABOT only seems to work for Terran - is that just me? Bit of a shame if it is as one of the things I thought would be fantastic for this is developing build orders with my app and then seeing the AI perform them to (somewhat) confirm the timings.
I just tried a Terran build order I developed though (waypoint 1 set at 1 marine by 3mins, then target set for orbital command, 3 depots (so it doesn't use calldown supply), constant scvs and 6 marines 2 marauders), and here are the results:
Detailed format:
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 11S - Build SCV
0:19.00: 73M 0G 0E 7/ 11S - Build SCV
0:36.00: 106M 0G 0E 8/ 11S - Build SCV
0:53.00: 150M 0G 0E 9/ 11S - Build SCV
0:53.03: 100M 0G 0E 10/ 11S - Build Supply Depot
1:10.00: 91M 0G 0E 10/ 11S - Build SCV
1:27.00: 147M 0G 0E 11/ 19S - Build SCV
1:34.04: 150M 0G 0E 12/ 19S - Build Barracks (Naked)
1:44.00: 67M 0G 0E 12/ 19S - Build SCV
2:01.00: 149M 0G 0E 13/ 19S - Build SCV
2:01.00: 99M 0G 0E 14/ 19S - Build Refinery
2:18.00: 154M 0G 0E 14/ 19S - Build SCV
2:35.00: 250M 0G 0E 15/ 19S - Build SCV
2:35.00: 200M 0G 0E 16/ 19S - Build Barracks (Naked)
2:35.00: 50M 0G 0E 16/ 19S - Build Marine
2:35.00: 0M 0G 0E 17/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas
2:35.00: 0M 0G 0E 17/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas
2:52.00: 138M 19G 0E 17/ 19S - Build SCV
2:52.00: 88M 19G 0E 18/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
3:00.00: 156M 33G 0E 18/ 19S
Income: 516M 114G
Buildings: 1 Command Center 1 Refinery 1 Barracks
Units: 16 SCV 1 Marine
Research:
3:09.00: 233M 50G 0E 18/ 19S - Build Orbital Command
3:09.00: 83M 50G 0E 18/ 19S - Build Barracks Reactor
3:16.39: 100M 14G 0E 18/ 19S - Build Supply Depot
3:16.39: 0M 14G 0E 18/ 19S - Move SCV To Minerals
3:16.39: 0M 14G 0E 18/ 19S - Move SCV To Minerals
3:35.00: 178M 26G 0E 18/ 19S - Build Barracks Tech Lab
3:37.20: 150M 2G 0E 18/ 19S - Build Barracks (Naked)
3:44.00: 62M 7G 50E 18/ 19S - Build SCV
3:44.00: 12M 7G 50E 19/ 19S - Calldown MULE
3:44.00: 12M 7G 0E 19/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas
4:00.00: 205M 26G 9E 19/ 27S - Build Marauder
4:01.00: 118M 2G 10E 21/ 27S - Build SCV
4:03.48: 100M 5G 11E 22/ 27S - Build Supply Depot
4:07.56: 50M 10G 13E 22/ 27S - Build Marine
4:11.48: 50M 15G 15E 23/ 27S - Build Marine
4:18.00: 84M 23G 19E 24/ 27S - Build SCV
4:18.00: 34M 23G 19E 25/ 27S - Move SCV To Minerals
4:30.00: 202M 31G 26E 25/ 27S - Build Marauder
4:33.48: 151M 8G 28E 27/ 35S - Build Marine
4:33.48: 101M 8G 28E 28/ 35S - Move SCV To Gas
4:35.00: 122M 9G 29E 28/ 35S - Build SCV
4:35.00: 72M 9G 29E 29/ 35S - Move SCV To Gas
4:36.48: 91M 11G 30E 29/ 35S - Build Marine
4:37.20: 50M 12G 30E 30/ 35S - Build Marine
4:52.00: 215M 40G 38E 31/ 35S - Build SCV
Waypoint 2 satisfied:
5:02.20: 321M 59G 44E 32/ 35S
Income: 920M 114G
Buildings: 1 Refinery 3 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Reactor 1 Tech Lab
Units: 21 SCV 6 Marine 2 Marauder
Research:
YABOT format:
+ Show Spoiler +
<Key name="BuildOrder2">
<Value string="100 [i] scbuidlorderresult | 3 | CarbonTwelve | Build order developed by SCBuildOrder [/i] [s] 10 100 0 53 1 0 15 0 |
12 150 0 94 1 0 1 0 | 14 98 0 121 1 0 12 0 | 16 200 0 155 1 0 1 0 | 16 50 0 155 1 1 5 0 | 18 232 50 189 1 2 0 0 | 18 82 50 189 1 0 9 0 | 18 100 14 196 1 0 15
0 | 18 178 25 215 1 0 16 0 | 18 150 2 217 1 0 1 0 | 19 204 25 240 1 1 4 0 | 22 100 4 243 1 0 15 0 | 22 50 10 247 1 1 5 0 | 23 50 15 251 1 1 5 0 | 25 201 30
270 1 1 4 0 | 27 151 8 273 1 1 5 0 | 29 91 10 276 1 1 5 0 | 30 50 11 277 1 1 5 0 | [/s]"/>
</Key>
YABOT demo mode result screenshot:
+ Show Spoiler +
It's awesome to see the YABOT results line up pretty closely with the timings from my app, especially given the AI doesn't send the worker out early to build immediately when you have the required minerals. Also note that YABOT decided to get things in a slightly different order than my app said to (eg, the 2nd marine is built before the first marauder) which also obviously affects timings.
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This sort of thing is a little tricky with the way the output code works atm. For now I have to line up each command so all of them are printed basically the same, and printed straight after the last one - can't really do that with info about chrono boosts. I want to redo the output system anyway (probably with the new GUI) so I might reinvestigate then.
Maybe YABOT will include later a chronoboost action so you won't need to redo your output system. It will be something like (3 will be chronoboost code)
12 115 98 178 1 3 26 0 ==> research warpgate
12 115 98 178 1 2 3 0 chrono_warp ==> chronoboost warpgate research
14 115 98 178 1 2 3 0 chrono_warp
and so on...
Incidentally, I've noticed that the demo mode in YABOT only seems to work for Terran - is that just me? Bit of a shame if it is as one of the things I thought would be fantastic for this is developing build orders with my app and then seeing the AI perform them to (somewhat) confirm the timings.
I just tested with the protoss build order of 5 stalkers and warpgates and it works. But the A.I did something weird at the end of the B.O. (build a zealot instead of stalkers then build an assimilator on the expand with no nexus on it xD)
It should also be noticed that the AI didn't use well chronoboost which has delayed the warpgate transformation.
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On January 07 2011 20:47 Turtle36 wrote:
I just tested with the protoss build order of 5 stalkers and warpgates and it works. But the A.I did something weird at the end of the B.O. (build a zealot instead of stalkers then build an assimilator on the expand with no nexus on it xD)
It should also be noticed that the AI didn't use well chronoboost which has delayed the warpgate transformation.
Hmm, whenever I try it with another race the AI just does nothing. Maybe there's something wrong with the 1.3.1 maps on the NA server (they don't even have 1.3.1 on the SEA server).
I also noticed that issue where it seems to deviate from the build order at the last step. Not sure if playing with the 'end build' options would change anything...
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The build order for an engineering bay rush falsely requires you to build a barracks.
Please fix this so that I can see the fastest possible way to get a planetary fortress.
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On January 07 2011 20:53 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Hmm, whenever I try it with another race the AI just does nothing. Maybe there's something wrong with the 1.3.1 maps on the NA server (they don't even have 1.3.1 on the SEA server).
I also noticed that issue where it seems to deviate from the build order at the last step. Not sure if playing with the 'end build' options would change anything...
I made a couple of tests this weekend with the YABOT demonstration mode with differents set-up (AI level, 'end build option', etc...). I noticed that the AI always deviate at the last step of the build order...
Moreover if you set the AI level as insane, it will deviate from the start. Actually the best result has been reached with very easy AI.
Another important thing to notice with YABOT AI is that it will always give priority to the creation of units.
For instance with a 5 stalkers 4 warpgates BO, your build is at 19 food :
19 Warpgate research @3:27
21 Gate @4:01
21 Stalker @4:01
The result in YABOT :
Warpgate research @3:43
Stalker @3:44
Gate @4:31
But the most important thing is that AI (whatever the level) doesn't spend chronoboost well.
Chrono is spend sometimes on units production like zealot or stalker but never on probes production. It makes me think that the demonstration mode cannot be used for protoss at the moment.
Another problem is that only 15 rows can be used for BO and this is rather limited. For instance the 5 stalkers 4 warpgates BO is about 20 rows...
Hopefully a new YABOT version will be out soon and I know that developers wanted to change the number of rows for build orders and expand it to 20 or 25 so it will not be a problem later.
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On January 10 2011 17:32 Turtle36 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 20:53 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Hmm, whenever I try it with another race the AI just does nothing. Maybe there's something wrong with the 1.3.1 maps on the NA server (they don't even have 1.3.1 on the SEA server).
I also noticed that issue where it seems to deviate from the build order at the last step. Not sure if playing with the 'end build' options would change anything... I made a couple of tests this weekend with the YABOT demonstration mode with differents set-up (AI level, 'end build option', etc...). I noticed that the AI always deviate at the last step of the build order... Moreover if you set the AI level as insane, it will deviate from the start. Actually the best result has been reached with very easy AI. Another important thing to notice with YABOT AI is that it will always give priority to the creation of units. For instance with a 5 stalkers 4 warpgates BO, your build is at 19 food : 19 Warpgate research @3:27 21 Gate @4:01 21 Stalker @4:01 The result in YABOT :Warpgate research @3:43 Stalker @3:44 Gate @4:31
Yep, I found exactly the same sorts of issues with using Terran. Always deviates at the last step, and will often build units before buildings, despite the order.
But the most important thing is that AI (whatever the level) doesn't spend chronoboost well.
Chrono is spend sometimes on units production like zealot or stalker but never on probes production. It makes me think that the demonstration mode cannot be used for protoss at the moment.
Hmm, yeah, that's a significant issue, and made even worse by not being able to actually specify the chrono boosts in the build order. Ultimately I think the format that YABOT uses is somewhat flawwed and just not capable of being specific enough. I'm not sure if this is something they're likely to change as you'd need to completely redesign the format it uses. Unfortunately I really don't have the time to try and design my own map to execute build orders, and there's a lot of functionality that I would just never replicate, so it's not something I'd like to do anyway. I think we'll just have to accept that YABOT isn't ever going to be able to demonstrate build orders exactly as my app describes.
Another problem is that only 15 rows can be used for BO and this is rather limited. For instance the 5 stalkers 4 warpgates BO is about 20 rows...
I did read that they plan to use multiple objective lists in order to extend the limit, but still not ideal. Not really their fault though I guess.
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Curious what your mining rates are per unit.
I use this often, but when trying to optimize something like a 5 minute push as zerg, the pool timings it outputs for 10 pool, overpool, 9pool etc don't seem humanly possible.
I understand it should be off by a few seconds, and I do notice you have a 2 second mining time lag at the beginning.
But, for example, when doing 11 pool, the fastest I can get is around 1:45, and your program spits out 1:33. I don't have perfect micro, but I can't imagine I'm really 12 seconds slow less than 2 minutes into the game.
The build orders themselves have been incredibly useful, especially in refining my own ideas. However, I usually have to add 10-15 seconds to each build just because of the unfeasible pool timing.
Thanks for your feedback.
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On January 11 2011 15:37 mlbrandow wrote:
Curious what your mining rates are per unit.
I've followed Piousflea's measurements: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055
For gas income it assumes one geyser is close and one is far away.
But, for example, when doing 11 pool, the fastest I can get is around 1:45, and your program spits out 1:33. I don't have perfect micro, but I can't imagine I'm really 12 seconds slow less than 2 minutes into the game.
The build orders themselves have been incredibly useful, especially in refining my own ideas. However, I usually have to add 10-15 seconds to each build just because of the unfeasible pool timing.
I can imagine the build orders being 2-3s out, but based on personal testing I usually find that it's a lot closer than 10-15s, especially on something like the first building. Try testing on Very Slow so that your skill level doesn't affect the timings as much, and see if you can get it closer to the output's time.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/7572/yabotexamplebycarbontwe.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7572/yabotexamplebycarbontwe.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6779/yabotscreenshot.png)
