SCFusion - WoL, HotS & LotV Build Order Optimizer - Page 37

falcoiii

Canada43 Posts

January 12 2011 04:43 GMT

#721

Awesome tool, just found it!

For T, is there any way for the program to do a tech-lab switch?

For example, putting in 1 banshee does a refinery - barracks - factory - starport - tech lab - banshee build at 5:38 Building a tech lab at the factory and doing a tech lab switch should be faster.

Also, my system is getting a game rate of 28,000 overall, is this very slow?

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

January 12 2011 05:28 GMT

#722

On January 12 2011 13:43 falcoiii wrote:
Awesome tool, just found it!

For T, is there any way for the program to do a tech-lab switch?

For example, putting in 1 banshee does a refinery - barracks - factory - starport - tech lab - banshee build at 5:38 Building a tech lab at the factory and doing a tech lab switch should be faster.

Not at the moment. It will be available in the next version though. Incidentally it only saves about 10s for the banshee build:

8 Refinery
8 Supply Depot
8 Barracks (Naked)
8 Move SCV To Gas
8 Move SCV To Gas
9 Move SCV To Gas
9 Factory (Naked)
10 Starport (Naked)
12 Barracks Tech Lab
13 Lift Starport (Naked)
13 Lift Barracks (Tech Lab)
13 Land Starport (Tech Lab)
13 Banshee
16 Orbital Command
16 Calldown MULE

Waypoint 1 satisfied:
 5:28.63:  287M  127G   3E  16/ 19S
Income:    606M  114G
Buildings:  1 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory 1 Starport 1 Tech Lab
Units:      13 SCV 1 Banshee
Research:

Edit: Hmm, I wonder if it's not considering building the tech lab earlier, lifting off, then building the starport at the tech lab. Will need to look into that...

Edit 2: Yep, it wasn't considering building on an available tech lab. New build order for fast banshee:

8 Refinery
8 Supply Depot
8 Barracks (Naked)
8 Move SCV To Gas
8 Move SCV To Gas
8 Move SCV To Gas
9 Factory (Naked)
9 Barracks Tech Lab
9 Lift Barracks (Tech Lab)
9 Starport (on Tech Lab)
10 Banshee
13 Move SCV To Minerals
13 Move SCV To Minerals
13 Orbital Command
13 Move SCV To Gas
13 Move SCV To Gas

Waypoint 1 satisfied:
 5:16.69:  177M   81G  50E  13/ 19S
Income:    297M  114G
Buildings:  1 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory 1 Starport 1 Tech Lab
Units:      10 SCV 1 Banshee
Research:

Also, my system is getting a game rate of 28,000 overall, is this very slow?

28,000 overall is indeed very slow. What's your CPU? Are you running anything else while running the app (eg Stacraft 2)?

falcoiii

Canada43 Posts

January 12 2011 13:30 GMT

#723

Thanks for the info - scary to know that banshees can be flying at 5:16 - at least it would only be on 19 supply.

I look forward to the update.

My computer has Intel Core 2 Duo CPU T9550 @ 2.66 GHz. It has been running CPU intensive apps very slowly since the holidays, I think something is up with the OS.

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

January 12 2011 21:40 GMT

#724

On January 12 2011 22:30 falcoiii wrote:
My computer has Intel Core 2 Duo CPU T9550 @ 2.66 GHz. It has been running CPU intensive apps very slowly since the holidays, I think something is up with the OS.

Yeah, definitely sounds like something is up. My laptop has a T9400 and gets ~200,000 games per second for most build orders.

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

January 12 2011 23:48 GMT

#725

On January 12 2011 12:31 CarbonTwelve wrote:

Show nested quote +

I've followed Piousflea's measurements: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055

For gas income it assumes one geyser is close and one is far away.

Show nested quote +

I can imagine the build orders being 2-3s out, but based on personal testing I usually find that it's a lot closer than 10-15s, especially on something like the first building. Try testing on Very Slow so that your skill level doesn't affect the timings as much, and see if you can get it closer to the output's time.

http://jump.fm/CUORF

+ Show Spoiler +

0:02.00: 50M 0G 3L 0L 0L 0E 6/ 10S - Build Drone
0:13.63: 50M 0G 2L 0L 0L 0E 7/ 10S - Build Drone
0:24.83: 50M 0G 2L 0L 0L 0E 8/ 10S - Build Drone
0:34.78: 50M 0G 2L 0L 0L 0E 9/ 10S - Build Drone
0:47.78: 75M 0G 2L 0L 0L 0E 10/ 10S - Extractor Trick Drone
1:13.89: 200M 0G 2L 0L 0L 0E 11/ 10S - Build Spawning Pool
1:24.98: 75M 0G 3L 0L 0L 0E 10/ 10S - Extractor Trick Drone
1:36.81: 100M 0G 2L 0L 0L 0E 11/ 10S - Build Overlord
1:40.33: 25M 0G 2L 0L 0L 0E 11/ 10S - Build Extractor
2:01.81: 147M 0G 3L 0L 0L 0E 10/ 18S - Build Drone
2:01.81: 97M 0G 2L 0L 0L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Drone
2:10.33: 107M 0G 1L 0L 0L 0E 12/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas
2:10.33: 107M 0G 1L 0L 0L 0E 12/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas
2:10.33: 107M 0G 1L 0L 0L 0E 12/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas
2:18.97: 150M 13G 2L 0L 0L 0E 12/ 18S - Build Queen
2:27.47: 50M 29G 2L 0L 0L 0E 14/ 18S - Build Drone
2:35.34: 50M 44G 2L 0L 0L 0E 15/ 18S - Build Zergling
2:43.22: 50M 59G 1L 0L 0L 0E 16/ 18S - Build Zergling
2:50.71: 50M 73G 1L 0L 0L 0E 17/ 18S - Build Zergling
3:04.97: 101M 100G 1L 0L 0L 0E 18/ 18S - Research Metabolic Boost
3:08.97: 30M 8G 1L 0L 0L 25E 18/ 18S - Queen Spawn Larva
3:08.97: 30M 8G 1L 0L 0L 0E 18/ 18S - Move Drone To Minerals
3:08.97: 30M 8G 1L 0L 0L 0E 18/ 18S - Move Drone To Minerals
3:17.50: 100M 13G 2L 0L 0L 5E 18/ 18S - Build Overlord
3:17.50: 0M 13G 1L 0L 0L 5E 18/ 18S - Move Drone To Minerals
3:42.50: 230M 13G 2L 0L 0L 19E 18/ 26S - Build Zergling
3:42.50: 180M 13G 1L 0L 0L 19E 19/ 26S - Build Zergling
3:46.81: 170M 13G 1L 0L 0L 21E 20/ 26S - Build Zergling
3:48.97: 140M 13G 4L 0L 0L 23E 21/ 26S - Build Zergling
3:48.97: 90M 13G 3L 0L 0L 23E 22/ 26S - Build Zergling
3:50.07: 50M 13G 2L 0L 0L 23E 23/ 26S - Build Zergling
3:53.41: 31M 13G 1L 0L 0L 25E 24/ 26S - Queen Spawn Larva
3:55.48: 50M 13G 1L 0L 0L 1E 24/ 26S - Build Zergling
4:06.29: 100M 13G 1L 0L 0L 7E 25/ 26S - Build Overlord
4:18.97: 117M 13G 1L 0L 0L 14E 25/ 26S - Build Zergling
4:33.41: 201M 13G 4L 0L 0L 23E 26/ 34S - Build Zergling
4:33.41: 151M 13G 3L 0L 0L 23E 27/ 34S - Build Zergling
4:33.41: 101M 13G 2L 0L 0L 23E 28/ 34S - Build Zergling
4:33.41: 51M 13G 1L 0L 0L 23E 29/ 34S - Build Zergling
4:33.41: 1M 13G 0L 0L 0L 23E 30/ 34S - Move Drone To Gas
4:33.41: 1M 13G 0L 0L 0L 23E 30/ 34S - Move Drone To Gas
4:33.41: 1M 13G 0L 0L 0L 23E 30/ 34S - Move Drone To Gas
4:37.86: 32M 18G 0L 0L 0L 25E 30/ 34S - Queen Spawn Larva

Waypoint 1 satisfied:
4:57.41: 171M 55G 1L 0L 0L 11E 30/ 34S
Income: 426M 114G
Buildings: 1 Hatchery 1 Extractor 1 Spawning Pool
Units: 13 Drone 4 Overlord 1 Queen 30 Zergling
Upgrades: Metabolic Boost

I'm not sure what it is, but I can't even get within 6 seconds with absolutely perfect micro on very slow.

The pool timing is always between 1:20-1:25, 1:20 being the fastest I can manage.

In that build:
Drone: 17
Drone: 28
Drone: 39
Drone: 54
Pool: 1:20

Compare with:
0:13.63: Build Drone +3.5 seconds
0:24.83: Build Drone +3.5 seconds
0:34.78: Build Drone +4 seconds
0:47.78: Extractor Trick Drone +6 seconds
1:13.89: Build Spawning Pool +6 seconds

Here are the replays, because maybe I'm just bad.

http://jump.fm/CUORF
http://jump.fm/GIODO
http://jump.fm/WLJIS

There are two caps here that warrant a look:

The first is that even from the 2nd drone, there is a ~3 second lag time. I think if you factor reaction time and click accuracy time + divide the remainder among 3 drones on the far patches (travel distance) that roughly accounts for this time.

The second though is that it seems like your ETD doesn't stop mining, or travel time isn't factored, or something. It takes about a second for a cancel to give you drone control back, plus travel time both ways. (I notice in the build it waits for 75minerals to execute "ETD". In practice you'll send a drone about 65 minerals so as the extractor starts, you get 50 minerals to make drone instantly.)

The first error is probably just the standard CPU>Human lag, but the second seems like it should be amendable. Anything overpool timing past 1:20 I accept as being faster play human error on my part.

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

January 13 2011 00:37 GMT

#726

On January 13 2011 08:48 mlbrandow wrote:

Show nested quote +

http://jump.fm/CUORF

+ Show Spoiler +

I'll test it out at lunch. Won't be able to watch these replays though as I don't have the new version on my laptop yet :/

The first is that even from the 2nd drone, there is a ~3 second lag time. I think if you factor reaction time and click accuracy time + divide the remainder among 3 drones on the far patches (travel distance) that roughly accounts for this time.

The code does account for near/far patches in resource income rates.

The second though is that it seems like your ETD doesn't stop mining, or travel time isn't factored, or something. It takes about a second for a cancel to give you drone control back, plus travel time both ways. (I notice in the build it waits for 75minerals to execute "ETD". In practice you'll send a drone about 65 minerals so as the extractor starts, you get 50 minerals to make drone instantly.)

The code also does simulate the travel time, wait time while building the drone, and time travelling back to mining.

Qibla

Australia343 Posts

January 13 2011 01:08 GMT

#727

I'm trying to install this, but I'm getting an error mfc100u.dll is missing, though when I look in my registry it is right there. Anyone else get this?

Sek-Kuar

Czech Republic593 Posts

January 13 2011 02:00 GMT

#728

I cant get this thing working, I had to download 2 DLL but I still have problems with second one, error message says (its right after I try to run app I downloaded):

The entrance point of procedure wmemcpy_s could not be found in associated MSVCR100.dll

(its my translation as I have located czech version of WinXP)

Anyone had this problem and know how to solve it?

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

January 13 2011 02:27 GMT

#729

Guys, you need to read the OP.

On November 12 2010 09:54 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Note, it requires VC++ 2010 Redistributables x86 from Microsoft to run: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?familyid=A7B7A05E-6DE6-4D3A-A423-37BF0912DB84&displaylang=en

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

January 13 2011 03:06 GMT

#730

mlbrandow: here's a replay of a test I just did (again, apologies that it's on the older patch version): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127175-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:buildorder

* Drone 00:00:01
* Drone 00:00:15
* Drone 00:00:27
* Drone 00:00:36
* Extractor 00:00:46
* Drone 00:00:48
* Spawning Pool 00:01:16

You can see from the build order there that the pool was done at 1:16, only 2s behind what the app suggests, and in fact I had the minerals to build it a second earlier, just misplaced my drone a little.

Compared to the app's timings, the first drone was 1s early, second drone 1.5s late, third drone 2s late, 4th drone 1s late, 5th drone same time, pool 2s late. I think the timings for that are close enough to be reasonably used.

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

January 13 2011 05:58 GMT

#731

On January 13 2011 12:06 CarbonTwelve wrote:
mlbrandow: here's a replay of a test I just did (again, apologies that it's on the older patch version): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/127175-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:buildorder

* Drone 00:00:01
* Drone 00:00:15
* Drone 00:00:27
* Drone 00:00:36
* Extractor 00:00:46
* Drone 00:00:48
* Spawning Pool 00:01:16

You can see from the build order there that the pool was done at 1:16, only 2s behind what the app suggests, and in fact I had the minerals to build it a second earlier, just misplaced my drone a little.

Compared to the app's timings, the first drone was 1s early, second drone 1.5s late, third drone 2s late, 4th drone 1s late, 5th drone same time, pool 2s late. I think the timings for that are close enough to be reasonably used.

K i'll watch this. Must be something egregious I'm doing wrong.

edit: wow, this is pretty enlightening. Can't believe how non-drone micro really can set you back so early. thanks for the reply, and glad to know it's me, not your program

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

January 13 2011 06:18 GMT

#732

On January 13 2011 14:58 mlbrandow wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's still only 4-5s, which really isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but certainly it's worth microing your drones if you can. Also note that I probably saved a second or two at the start because I could react faster to the game starting. I'm thinking about increasing the initial delay because I noticed a while ago that even in the GSL it still takes most pros ~4s to get the initial mining & worker build started.

Qibla

Australia343 Posts

January 13 2011 11:06 GMT

#733

On January 13 2011 11:27 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Guys, you need to read the OP.

Show nested quote +

Herd Derp, Installed the 64 bit version instead. Stoopid. Working fine now, Great work mang :D

Qibla

Australia343 Posts

January 13 2011 11:30 GMT

#734

Is there anyway you can build in a "macro style" optimizer, at least for terran and protoss, where it's default that you will always be continuously building workers from all cc's/nexi till you hit saturation for 'n' bases, and the left over resources is what is used to calculate any other production?

It could just be a box that you check so that you can still use it for a fast as "all in" BO or macro style BO.

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

January 13 2011 11:45 GMT

#735

On January 13 2011 20:30 Qibla wrote:
Is there anyway you can build in a "macro style" optimizer, at least for terran and protoss, where it's default that you will always be continuously building workers from all cc's/nexi till you hit saturation for 'n' bases, and the left over resources is what is used to calculate any other production?

It could just be a box that you check so that you can still use it for a fast as "all in" BO or macro style BO.

You can already check the 'constant probe/scvs' checkbox and it will make sure that it avoids nexus/command center idle time. There's a constant drone checkbox as well, but that doesn't do anything atm (still haven't decided how I want to implement that).

Qibla

Australia343 Posts

January 13 2011 11:53 GMT

#736

Ah sweet, yeah drones will be tough. DoubleGreatWork!!

XllX

Germany23 Posts

January 13 2011 13:14 GMT

#737

Thanks for making this software. Already served me well in optimizing an early push opening build.

It would be nice to have the Nydus Worm as a building option next to the Nydus Network.
Would help in knowing how to fastest enter the enemy base by underground with a certain unit composition.

MarshalClaw

United States27 Posts

January 14 2011 22:37 GMT

#738

Carbon... thanks so much for your work on this! I can't wait for the next update to take into account the latest patch!

CarbonTwelve

Australia525 Posts

January 16 2011 22:04 GMT

#739

I have just uploaded v9.0 alpha 2 which supports YABOT format for all races as well as utilising addon swapping for Terran (as well as a couple of other minor changes). If anyone wants to test it out and let me know of any issues that'd be appreciated. I'll probably release 9.0 final tonight.

Klaxon

Canada34 Posts

January 16 2011 22:14 GMT

#740

Hi Carbon thanks for making this cool program it's pretty interesting to see what builds the algorithm can find. I'm trying to do a evolving AI for BW so I know it's pretty difficult to do this sort of stuff.

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