EPTCan you confirm whether probes and drones mine at identical speeds as scvs?
About my post above, that is .970011533 minerals per real second, not per game second. I'd like to see how accurate I was after doing a much bigger test.
SCFusion - WoL, HotS & LotV Build Order Optimizer - Page 18
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calculator
36 Posts
Can you confirm whether probes and drones mine at identical speeds as scvs? About my post above, that is .970011533 minerals per real second, not per game second. I'd like to see how accurate I was after doing a much bigger test. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:15 calculator wrote: Maybe I'll get that knocked out, if I can figure how to edit an official map that would help greatly. I'm pretty sure you can open any official map and save it as a custom one. I just want to disable AI from getting in the way Don't even need to disable AI - set up the players as human players and use triggers to send the commands. increase the amount in each mineral field, and like you said delete some mineral fields. Then I can run like a 5 hour test, on each individual patch and simultaneously on other bases with 16 and 24 scvs. I think all the starting mineral patterns for every map have the same amount of fields at the same distances, for example 2 close, 2 medium, 2 far, 2 furthest, so that should eliminate the necessity to do every field for every spawn individually. I'm not actually sure if that's always the case, hence why I was thinking of testing each base individually and using an average of all the results. Can you confirm whether probes and drones mine at identical speeds as scvs? I'm 99% certain that's the case. Haven't actually tested it, but if it was found to be different there'd be a fair bit of outcry I'd say. About my post above, that is .970011533 minerals per real second, not per game second. I'd like to see how accurate I was after doing a much bigger test. Ah, yeah, I'd need it in game seconds for the results  Could just work out the ratio of game seconds to real seconds I guess though, although in theory lag could cause that ratio to be incorrect, so measuring by game seconds would be best. Maybe just save the replay afterwards?Would be greatly appreciated if you could do this - even submit the map when done and I can play with it / run simulations as well. | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On November 19 2010 15:26 CarbonTwelve wrote: Don't even need to disable AI - set up the players as human players and use triggers to send the commands. If you're gonna do that you might aswell just remove the AI initilazation trigger. It's not hard to "remove AI". | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On November 19 2010 15:33 HellRoxYa wrote: If you're gonna do that you might aswell just remove the AI initilazation trigger. It's not hard to "remove AI". Yeah, ok, my point was just don't use the AI, rather than trying to prevent the AI from doing things you don't want. | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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gotlucky
United States60 Posts
On November 19 2010 16:14 Inori wrote: First of all, big thanks for this great app! I can't seem to find it where do I turn this on? Or does the app automatically scout every game? You can find it under the settings tab. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 3L 0E 6/ 10S - Build Drone 0:13.63: 50M 0G 2L 0E 7/ 10S - Build Drone 0:24.70: 50M 0G 2L 0E 8/ 10S - Build Drone 0:34.55: 50M 0G 2L 0E 9/ 10S - Build Drone 0:47.44: 75M 0G 2L 0E 10/ 10S - Extractor Trick Drone 0:59.84: 100M 0G 1L 0E 11/ 10S - Build Overlord 1:24.84: 191M 0G 3L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Drone 1:32.32: 200M 0G 2L 0E 12/ 18S - Build Spawning Pool 1:36.26: 25M 0G 2L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Extractor 1:44.41: 50M 0G 3L 0E 10/ 18S - Build Drone 1:51.45: 50M 0G 2L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Drone 1:58.49: 50M 0G 1L 0E 12/ 18S - Build Drone 2:05.33: 50M 0G 1L 0E 13/ 18S - Build Drone 2:06.26: 7M 0G 0L 0E 14/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas 2:06.26: 7M 0G 0L 0E 14/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas 2:14.41: 62M 11G 1L 0E 14/ 18S - Build Drone 2:37.32: 202M 43G 1L 0E 15/ 18S - Build Queen 2:42.53: 100M 51G 1L 0E 17/ 18S - Build Overlord 2:53.34: 100M 66G 2L 0E 17/ 18S - Build Overlord 3:09.56: 150M 89G 3L 0E 17/ 26S - Build Roach Warren 3:27.32: 149M 113G 3L 25E 16/ 34S - Queen Spawn Larva 4:04.56: 469M 166G 3L 21E 16/ 34S - Build Roach 4:04.56: 394M 141G 2L 21E 18/ 34S - Build Roach 4:04.56: 319M 116G 1L 21E 20/ 34S - Build Roach 4:07.32: 268M 94G 4L 23E 22/ 34S - Build Roach 4:07.32: 193M 69G 3L 23E 24/ 34S - Build Roach 4:07.32: 118M 44G 2L 23E 26/ 34S - Build Roach 4:11.26: 77M 25G 1L 25E 28/ 34S - Build Roach 4:11.26: 2M 0G 0L 25E 30/ 34S - Move Drone To Gas Waypoint 1 satisfied: 4:38.26: 214M 51G 1L 40E 30/ 34S Income: 471M 114G Buildings: You can see it comes up with the same technique as EC comes up with, ie the extractor trick to get a faster pool and the double overlord to avoid getting larva capped. Still a lot to be done though, hopefully will have a release ready by the end of the weekend. | ||
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tehV
28 Posts
Currently I'm using a fake 'scouting probe' to delay when the first pylon comes out to match whats possible in game. (having it leave at 0 and return at 50sec, gets the pylon to come out at 49.89 which i find much more realistic than the 44 second version) This should get the in-game times more representative. Moreover, I imagine there would be people who want to send multiple scouts on a 4 player map to quickly find their opponent for some sort of early cheese builds, so it could be useful in general as well. Thanks for all the work. | ||
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Weerwolf
75 Posts
I was using the first waypoint only at first. I wanted 15 probes and a zealot. I didn't get the result I wanted, so I tried making 12 probes and a gateway in the first waypoint and 16 probes and a zealot in waypoint number 2. This again didn't give me what I wanted (my own fault) so I removed everything from waypoint 2. Now I tried 16 probes and 1 zealot in waypoint 1 and nothing in waypoint 2. The output however didn't change. Even after 10 minutes it still showed the output from 2 waypoints while I only requested one. + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe 0:19.00: 67M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe 0:36.00: 88M 0G 19E 7/ 10S - Build Probe 0:53.00: 121M 0G 29E 8/ 10S - Build Probe 0:58.37: 100M 0G 32E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon 1:10.00: 59M 0G 38E 9/ 10S - Build Probe 1:32.13: 150M 0G 51E 10/ 18S - Build Gateway 1:40.00: 50M 0G 55E 10/ 18S - Build Probe 1:40.00: 0M 0G 55E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 1:51.33: 79M 0G 37E 11/ 18S - Build Probe 2:04.00: 127M 0G 44E 12/ 18S - Build Probe 2:21.00: 222M 0G 53E 13/ 18S - Build Probe 2:21.00: 172M 0G 53E 14/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 2:32.33: 275M 0G 35E 14/ 18S - Build Probe Waypoint 1 satisfied: 2:37.13: 271M 0G 37E 15/ 18S Income: 594M 0G Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Pylon 1 Gateway Units: 14 Probe Upgrades: 2:37.13: 271M 0G 37E 15/ 18S - Chrono Gateway 2:37.13: 271M 0G 12E 15/ 18S - Build Zealot 2:45.00: 249M 0G 17E 17/ 18S - Build Probe 2:59.78: 354M 0G 25E 18/ 18S - Chrono Gateway Waypoint 2 satisfied: 3:03.34: 391M 0G 2E 18/ 18S Income: 633M 0G Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Pylon 1 Gateway Units: 16 Probe 1 Zealot Upgrades: Also, sometimes contant probe production was checked and sometimes it wasn't. Don't know if thats important but just thought I'd mention it. | ||
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lowlypawn
United States241 Posts
On November 19 2010 18:33 CarbonTwelve wrote: A small update again, Zerg support is underway, and here's an example result for the 7 roach rush (7 roaches 1 queen): + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 3L 0E 6/ 10S - Build Drone 0:13.63: 50M 0G 2L 0E 7/ 10S - Build Drone 0:24.70: 50M 0G 2L 0E 8/ 10S - Build Drone 0:34.55: 50M 0G 2L 0E 9/ 10S - Build Drone 0:47.44: 75M 0G 2L 0E 10/ 10S - Extractor Trick Drone 0:59.84: 100M 0G 1L 0E 11/ 10S - Build Overlord 1:24.84: 191M 0G 3L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Drone 1:32.32: 200M 0G 2L 0E 12/ 18S - Build Spawning Pool 1:36.26: 25M 0G 2L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Extractor 1:44.41: 50M 0G 3L 0E 10/ 18S - Build Drone 1:51.45: 50M 0G 2L 0E 11/ 18S - Build Drone 1:58.49: 50M 0G 1L 0E 12/ 18S - Build Drone 2:05.33: 50M 0G 1L 0E 13/ 18S - Build Drone 2:06.26: 7M 0G 0L 0E 14/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas 2:06.26: 7M 0G 0L 0E 14/ 18S - Move Drone To Gas 2:14.41: 62M 11G 1L 0E 14/ 18S - Build Drone 2:37.32: 202M 43G 1L 0E 15/ 18S - Build Queen 2:42.53: 100M 51G 1L 0E 17/ 18S - Build Overlord 2:53.34: 100M 66G 2L 0E 17/ 18S - Build Overlord 3:09.56: 150M 89G 3L 0E 17/ 26S - Build Roach Warren 3:27.32: 149M 113G 3L 25E 16/ 34S - Queen Spawn Larva 4:04.56: 469M 166G 3L 21E 16/ 34S - Build Roach 4:04.56: 394M 141G 2L 21E 18/ 34S - Build Roach 4:04.56: 319M 116G 1L 21E 20/ 34S - Build Roach 4:07.32: 268M 94G 4L 23E 22/ 34S - Build Roach 4:07.32: 193M 69G 3L 23E 24/ 34S - Build Roach 4:07.32: 118M 44G 2L 23E 26/ 34S - Build Roach 4:11.26: 77M 25G 1L 25E 28/ 34S - Build Roach 4:11.26: 2M 0G 0L 25E 30/ 34S - Move Drone To Gas Waypoint 1 satisfied: 4:38.26: 214M 51G 1L 40E 30/ 34S Income: 471M 114G Buildings: You can see it comes up with the same technique as EC comes up with, ie the extractor trick to get a faster pool and the double overlord to avoid getting larva capped. Still a lot to be done though, hopefully will have a release ready by the end of the weekend. ZOMG Zerg soon! Can't wait to try it out I like trying out really complex builds with high food counts (150 to 200) just to try and gain insight into different things like, what's the most efficient way to reach a mixed 200 food army? How fast can I make 150 zerglings with speed? How much of a food buffer dose it leave before making the next overlord ETC. I find it interesting in seeing how many drones and bases ETC the computer decides to make. These kinds of builds kill evolution chamber (even on my 6 core 3.2 gig). Sometimes it will take 3 or 4 minutes before it even reaches the goal and then another 5 to 10 minutes before it's somewhat reasonable. What's interesting on these really complex builds is the strange build orders EC will come up with, like overlord on 7 or spawning pool on 8 ETC. I'm sure if I let EC run for hours and hours it would eventually figure out OL on 9 is better then on 7 ETC. So that's why I'm excited to play around with this version. It should be able to figure out builds in a few minutes that would take EC hours. Also if you need something specific that will help the project let us know. I'm not sure what us non programmers could contribute but maybe if you wanted some artwork or graphics to enhance the UI. Anyway awesome work so far! | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On November 19 2010 19:47 Weerwolf wrote: I think I found a bug.. I was using the first waypoint only at first. I wanted 15 probes and a zealot. I didn't get the result I wanted, so I tried making 12 probes and a gateway in the first waypoint and 16 probes and a zealot in waypoint number 2. This again didn't give me what I wanted (my own fault) so I removed everything from waypoint 2. Now I tried 16 probes and 1 zealot in waypoint 1 and nothing in waypoint 2. The output however didn't change. Even after 10 minutes it still showed the output from 2 waypoints while I only requested one. + Show Spoiler + 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe 0:19.00: 67M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe 0:36.00: 88M 0G 19E 7/ 10S - Build Probe 0:53.00: 121M 0G 29E 8/ 10S - Build Probe 0:58.37: 100M 0G 32E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon 1:10.00: 59M 0G 38E 9/ 10S - Build Probe 1:32.13: 150M 0G 51E 10/ 18S - Build Gateway 1:40.00: 50M 0G 55E 10/ 18S - Build Probe 1:40.00: 0M 0G 55E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 1:51.33: 79M 0G 37E 11/ 18S - Build Probe 2:04.00: 127M 0G 44E 12/ 18S - Build Probe 2:21.00: 222M 0G 53E 13/ 18S - Build Probe 2:21.00: 172M 0G 53E 14/ 18S - Chrono Nexus 2:32.33: 275M 0G 35E 14/ 18S - Build Probe Waypoint 1 satisfied: 2:37.13: 271M 0G 37E 15/ 18S Income: 594M 0G Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Pylon 1 Gateway Units: 14 Probe Upgrades: 2:37.13: 271M 0G 37E 15/ 18S - Chrono Gateway 2:37.13: 271M 0G 12E 15/ 18S - Build Zealot 2:45.00: 249M 0G 17E 17/ 18S - Build Probe 2:59.78: 354M 0G 25E 18/ 18S - Chrono Gateway Waypoint 2 satisfied: 3:03.34: 391M 0G 2E 18/ 18S Income: 633M 0G Buildings: 1 Nexus 1 Pylon 1 Gateway Units: 16 Probe 1 Zealot Upgrades: Also, sometimes contant probe production was checked and sometimes it wasn't. Don't know if thats important but just thought I'd mention it. Thanks for that, I've fixed it up for the next version. The reason it happened is because of the feature of it saving build orders between stopping and starting and that it doesn't update the display unless the build order changes. So what would happen is it got that build order from the first time you ran it, then it would use it for the second time, and because that's still the best build order it would never update the display | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
I asked the program to make one zealot before the 4 minute mark as Waypoint 1, one sentry and one zealot before the 5 minute mark as waypoint 2 and then give me the fastest way to get 6 sentries, 6 zealots and 4 immortals as waypoint 3. The output told me to get 16 expansions and build 150-some probes, is there some way that waypoint 3 is hardcoded to shoot for 200 food, or did I mess something up? It seems to want me to expand when I just use waypoint 2 as well - though only a couple of times... am I the only one having this issue? | ||
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LegacyObserver
United States32 Posts
That or at least allow a setting? I can see benefits to both ways. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On November 19 2010 11:55 CarbonTwelve wrote: If someone can come up with a definition that works better than the one I'm using atm (calculate the number of probes that could be produced at a rate of 11s each and add a 3s penalty for each one you're short), I'd gladly do it (and I'm not trying to be dismissive or anything - I genuinely would like to find an implementation that works better). I think part of the problem is, how would you actually define 'constant probe production'? Does it actually mean that the nexus shouldn't be idle? Does it mean it should just make as many probes as it possibly can (all chrono spent on nexus)? Does it mean you should keep up with Terran's SCV production? Very difficult to say for Protoss and kind of depends on what build you're actually going for. I think there should be multiple options. The current "constant Probes" option is fine but misleading, since it does not, in fact, constantly produce Probes. It constantly produces Probes unless that significantly delays the wanted build (as far as I can see). That's cool, but not what's advertised, so to speak. So I would suggest to add two more options, "Nexus never idle" and "Always chrono boost Nexus", for the more macro oriented builds. The three Probe related options could even be used concurrently to the waypoint system. "I want X Zealots and Stalkers as fast as possible, with 'Nexus never idle' always on and 'Always chrono boost Nexus' on for the first 5 minutes". Of course, I have no idea if that would be easy to program or anything, but methinks it'd be pretty nifty. | ||
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boberto
7 Posts
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calculator
36 Posts
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On November 19 2010 23:52 Treehead wrote: Something weird is happening with mine. I asked the program to make one zealot before the 4 minute mark as Waypoint 1, one sentry and one zealot before the 5 minute mark as waypoint 2 and then give me the fastest way to get 6 sentries, 6 zealots and 4 immortals as waypoint 3. The output told me to get 16 expansions and build 150-some probes, is there some way that waypoint 3 is hardcoded to shoot for 200 food, or did I mess something up? It seems to want me to expand when I just use waypoint 2 as well - though only a couple of times... am I the only one having this issue? Have you got v5.1 or v5.2? I stuffed up the waypoints with v5 and v5.1, but I don't think you should see those results with v5.2. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On November 20 2010 01:39 Conti wrote: I think there should be multiple options. The current "constant Probes" option is fine but misleading, since it does not, in fact, constantly produce Probes. It constantly produces Probes unless that significantly delays the wanted build (as far as I can see). That's cool, but not what's advertised, so to speak. So I would suggest to add two more options, "Nexus never idle" and "Always chrono boost Nexus", for the more macro oriented builds. The three Probe related options could even be used concurrently to the waypoint system. "I want X Zealots and Stalkers as fast as possible, with 'Nexus never idle' always on and 'Always chrono boost Nexus' on for the first 5 minutes". Of course, I have no idea if that would be easy to program or anything, but methinks it'd be pretty nifty. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea, and not too complicated for the code. I'll see if I can get that done for the next version. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On November 20 2010 05:34 calculator wrote: I used the editor a lot in SC, but with this I can't figure out how to edit an official map. I even downloaded one and I still can't edit it. I'll start some mineral tests if you can give me quick instructions on how to find/open the official maps. I'll just use probes since this is the protoss version. I haven't ever tried it myself, but having seen so many custom maps that modify the official ones I assumed it was pretty easy to do. Anyway, I did a Google search and found a link to this on SC2Mapster: http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/official-melee-maps/ It's a little old, but it's got Lost Temple there and should suffice for our needs. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On November 20 2010 06:19 CarbonTwelve wrote: Have you got v5.1 or v5.2? I stuffed up the waypoints with v5 and v5.1, but I don't think you should see those results with v5.2. My exe file says "5.2" - maybe it's not though for some reason? Edit: I'll try downloading it again when I get home since no one else seems having that issue. | ||
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