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On October 17 2011 10:07 Klogon wrote:
The fairest system is not always the best system.
The fairest system to determine MLG's champion would be to have a gigantic round robin of the 32 best players. The player with the most games won is crowned the champion. I think many of us will agree that that is not the ideal system.
This would be bad because there would be tons of meaningless games. MLG may be anticlimactic at the end, but at least every game is important
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honestly the finals were anti-climatic because of the extended series rule
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On October 17 2011 10:10 phiinix wrote:
I think it's absolutely fair, and I find it hard to see other wise. Whether or not it is a good rule to have is another story.
If idra 2-0ed boxer in pool play and then boxer 2-1ed idra in the championship bracket (which is the way the wins tallied if i remember correctly) then without the rule boxer would move on. It is unclear who the better player is then, and would be unfair to advance a player without consideration of their other games. The extended series allows for the better play to come out on top, it not like it's easier to win in pool play than it is in the championship bracket.
Boxer might have went 3-4 against Idra overall, but Boxer also 2-1'd Stephano and Sase while Idra didn't. How can anyone argue objectively that Idra winning one extra game is worth more than Boxer taking out two other players and therefore makes him the better player of the two in this tournament? You can't: therefore the most fair method would of been making them start from a clean state.
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MLG finals is so lackluster. EVERY SINGLE MLG winner was the winners bracket champion because they have such a huge advantage. The games are so short and boring. That's like a regular season record champ in MLB winning the WS automatically. Double elimination tournaments should not have an extended series. Make the person from the winners bracket be up 1 game. He already doesn't have to play as much game by not falling to the losers bracket.
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On October 17 2011 10:16 Hypertension wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 10:07 Klogon wrote:
The fairest system is not always the best system.
The fairest system to determine MLG's champion would be to have a gigantic round robin of the 32 best players. The player with the most games won is crowned the champion. I think many of us will agree that that is not the ideal system. This would be bad because there would be tons of meaningless games. MLG may be anticlimactic at the end, but at least every game is important
That's a silly statement.
In pool play having a higher seeding is huge. The first day of the tourney has more meaning than the last, because winning after going 2-3 in groups is pretty much impossible as it is.
There needs to be hype around the last day, and that's how you achieve it. Wins mean a lot more in pool play compared to something like IPL, I don't think we require anymore benefits.
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Canada5565 Posts
It doesn't make any sense and no one likes it. It's been this way forever.
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On October 17 2011 10:17 blamekilly wrote:
MLG finals is so lackluster. EVERY SINGLE MLG winner was the winners bracket champion because they have such a huge advantage. The games are so short and boring. That's like a regular season record champ in MLB winning the WS automatically. Double elimination tournaments should not have an extended series. Make the person from the winners bracket be up 1 game. He already doesn't have to play as much game by not falling to the losers bracket.
But regular season baseball is boring. Pool play in MLG is awesome, mostly because each win in pool play gives an insane advantage later on.
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On October 17 2011 10:12 Hypertension wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 10:04 MrDudeMan wrote:On October 17 2011 09:59 La1 wrote:
people that dont get it are dumb, its a fair rule
if you have 7 maps to play and say in round 1 you play some guy and you both play each other on 2 of those maps and you win 2-0
then you meet him in the final which is a bo7 you have already played 2 of the 7 maps
so you start 2-0 up with 5 maps to play..
not dumb at all to me..
I guess you could justify it as "fair" depending on your standards, but it is a harsh rule. You are already punished for losing to the player earlier, there isn't a need for a further punishment. I think what MLG should do is change the championship bracket into a single elimination bracket. Then just split it up so the top 4 seeds are automatically awarded at least 8th place. Take out the extended series rule, and make the semi finals bo5 and the grand finals bo7. . It is harsh. I think the main advantage of the extended series is that it makes earlier games much more meaningful. You just don't get a series where one player has little to no incentive to win. But by making earlier games more meaningful the end of the tournament is less meaningful and already decided to a small extent. This gives the chance for some insane comebacks later on, but in the majority of the time the final round is easily predictable. A single elimination tournament is more random than double elimination but the finals are less predictable and therefore more exciting. Overall I like the fact that we had so many great games early in the tournament, where in other group formats players might have been tempted to hide their strategies for later on. I am willing to accept that this is the minority opinion, but I don't see why it is the "wrong" opinion.
But there is already great incentives to win even without the extended series advantage. Like someone pointed out two pages back, Huk only won one more bo3 than MC during pool play, but yet, because of that one extra win, Huk only had to beat two opponents to reach the Grand Finals while MC had to beat SIX. I don't know about you, but having to play four less opponent is quite an incentive to me. If you still think they needed more advantage, then by all means your opinion is not wrong, just wanted people to be clear of the facts at least before forming their opinions.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
I think that it could be used in the open brackets maybe
but it shouldn't be used because of pool games, because pool games goal is to seed the players, so why give a double disadvantage?
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You know, this discussion has been brought up almost every single MLG with the majority of people agreeing that it sucks. From what I can tell, MLG still has not addressed the issue or make any official comments about it.
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On October 17 2011 10:24 pPingu wrote:
I think that it could be used in the open brackets maybe
but it shouldn't be used because of pool games, because pool games goal is to seed the players, so why give a double disadvantage?
This so many times over! The "Championship" bracket is the tournament.
It's like qualifying on Formula One that happens the day before. And then during the race when your grid position is 5th and his is 2nd, and then you get some handicap when you try and pass him during the race because he was better than you before.
It just does not compute. I really want to know what MLG has to say on it.
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On October 17 2011 10:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 10:24 pPingu wrote:
I think that it could be used in the open brackets maybe
but it shouldn't be used because of pool games, because pool games goal is to seed the players, so why give a double disadvantage? This so many times over! The "Championship" bracket is the tournament. It's like qualifying on Formula One that happens the day before. And then during the race when your grid position is 5th and his is 2nd, and then you get some handicap when you try and pass him during the race because he was better than you before. It just does not compute. I really want to know what MLG has to say on it.
Again, no one watches the Formula One qualifiers because they don't matter and are therefore boring. The huge advantage you get for winning just one more Bo3 in pool play makes each pool play match actually worth watching.
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On October 17 2011 10:31 Hypertension wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 10:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On October 17 2011 10:24 pPingu wrote:
I think that it could be used in the open brackets maybe
but it shouldn't be used because of pool games, because pool games goal is to seed the players, so why give a double disadvantage? This so many times over! The "Championship" bracket is the tournament. It's like qualifying on Formula One that happens the day before. And then during the race when your grid position is 5th and his is 2nd, and then you get some handicap when you try and pass him during the race because he was better than you before. It just does not compute. I really want to know what MLG has to say on it. Again, no one watches the Formula One qualifiers because they don't matter and are therefore boring. The huge advantage you get for winning just one more Bo3 in pool play makes each pool play match actually worth watching.
yup just like the finals is actually worth watching. give me a break.
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On October 17 2011 10:31 Hypertension wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 10:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On October 17 2011 10:24 pPingu wrote:
I think that it could be used in the open brackets maybe
but it shouldn't be used because of pool games, because pool games goal is to seed the players, so why give a double disadvantage? This so many times over! The "Championship" bracket is the tournament. It's like qualifying on Formula One that happens the day before. And then during the race when your grid position is 5th and his is 2nd, and then you get some handicap when you try and pass him during the race because he was better than you before. It just does not compute. I really want to know what MLG has to say on it. Again, no one watches the Formula One qualifiers because they don't matter and are therefore boring. The huge advantage you get for winning just one more Bo3 in pool play makes each pool play match actually worth watching.
...which in turn makes follow-up quarter/semi/final games potentially not worth watching (or playing -_-).
What's more important, having pool play games that matter, or having finals that matter?
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On October 17 2011 10:31 Hypertension wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 10:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On October 17 2011 10:24 pPingu wrote:
I think that it could be used in the open brackets maybe
but it shouldn't be used because of pool games, because pool games goal is to seed the players, so why give a double disadvantage? This so many times over! The "Championship" bracket is the tournament. It's like qualifying on Formula One that happens the day before. And then during the race when your grid position is 5th and his is 2nd, and then you get some handicap when you try and pass him during the race because he was better than you before. It just does not compute. I really want to know what MLG has to say on it. Again, no one watches the Formula One qualifiers because they don't matter and are therefore boring. The huge advantage you get for winning just one more Bo3 in pool play makes each pool play match actually worth watching.
But whether it is interesting or not is irrelevant, as that depends on each individual. What is in question is whether if it is fair or not. And making it more interesting because more is at stake doesn't mean it is more fair.
What if the extended series makes you instantly win again when you meet the second time? OR how bout if they meet again, the loser must afk for 10 seconds at the start for each game that he lost? By your argument, this would make it even more at stake, therefore would justify the rule as it would make it more interesting right?
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On October 17 2011 10:19 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 10:16 Hypertension wrote:On October 17 2011 10:07 Klogon wrote:
The fairest system is not always the best system.
The fairest system to determine MLG's champion would be to have a gigantic round robin of the 32 best players. The player with the most games won is crowned the champion. I think many of us will agree that that is not the ideal system. This would be bad because there would be tons of meaningless games. MLG may be anticlimactic at the end, but at least every game is important That's a silly statement. In pool play having a higher seeding is huge. The first day of the tourney has more meaning than the last, because winning after going 2-3 in groups is pretty much impossible as it is. There needs to be hype around the last day, and that's how you achieve it. Wins mean a lot more in pool play compared to something like IPL, I don't think we require anymore benefits.
It's a silly statement in that there wouldn't be "tons" of meaningless games, but there certainly would be some. At Raleigh 2011, Coca was 4-0 when he took on Trimaster who was 1-3. The second highest ranked in the pool was Naniwa at 3-2. Without the extended series rule, that game would have been completely meaningless for Coca. Coca being such an awesome player, likely would have still tried, but how much motivation do you have when the game means nothing to you? This potentially gives Trimaster an unfair advantage as he could get a free pass. However when there is a potential of having to play someone again, it makes every match count for something. This is only one of a few instances when this has happened, but it's important to point out that it has happened.
However I agree that it does make the final match rather boring. I would say tournament final should be bo7 always, extended series in all other matchups.
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MLG is inherantly unfair regardless of the use of extended series, in my opinion. After pool play, what I think is fair (or at least better) is to prepare a bracket where the #1 ranked guy plays the #8 guy, and so on. That seems a fair reward for playing well in pool play or "preliminary" play (like how is sports [ex: NCAA BBall] the regular season is often just a seeding mechanism for the postseason). Instead what you have is a tournament where the highest seeds (like Huk) didn't lift a finger while about 50 (!!!) other games were played behind him just to reach his level of the bracket.
MLG's setup in general is what gives me a headache... The extended series is just a piece of the big messy picture.
Though MLG makes for better theatre than the NASL.
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On October 17 2011 10:35 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 10:31 Hypertension wrote:On October 17 2011 10:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On October 17 2011 10:24 pPingu wrote:
I think that it could be used in the open brackets maybe
but it shouldn't be used because of pool games, because pool games goal is to seed the players, so why give a double disadvantage? This so many times over! The "Championship" bracket is the tournament. It's like qualifying on Formula One that happens the day before. And then during the race when your grid position is 5th and his is 2nd, and then you get some handicap when you try and pass him during the race because he was better than you before. It just does not compute. I really want to know what MLG has to say on it. Again, no one watches the Formula One qualifiers because they don't matter and are therefore boring. The huge advantage you get for winning just one more Bo3 in pool play makes each pool play match actually worth watching. But whether it is interesting or not is irrelevant, as that depends on each individual. What is in question is whether if it is fair or not. And making it more interesting because more is at stake doesn't mean it is more fair. What if the extended series makes you instantly win again when you meet the second time? OR how bout if they meet again, the loser must afk for 10 seconds at the start for each game that he lost? By your argument, this would make it even more at stake, therefore would justify the rule as it would make it more interesting right?
That's basically how single elimination works, which most people would argue is more exciting than double elimination.
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i dont get why people hate it, I feel they the winner should get an advanted, they beat them earlier so it shouldnt be straight up
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Canada11607 Posts
On October 17 2011 10:31 Hypertension wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 10:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On October 17 2011 10:24 pPingu wrote:
I think that it could be used in the open brackets maybe
but it shouldn't be used because of pool games, because pool games goal is to seed the players, so why give a double disadvantage? This so many times over! The "Championship" bracket is the tournament. It's like qualifying on Formula One that happens the day before. And then during the race when your grid position is 5th and his is 2nd, and then you get some handicap when you try and pass him during the race because he was better than you before. It just does not compute. I really want to know what MLG has to say on it. Again, no one watches the Formula One qualifiers because they don't matter and are therefore boring. The huge advantage you get for winning just one more Bo3 in pool play makes each pool play match actually worth watching.
Or how about they're worth watching because your favourite player/ team/ race is playing?
Honestly, the possibility that some of these games might make a difference in extended play is way too abstract to increase the mental/emotional weight the viewer will put on the game. And that's because, the games are only important to the finals in retrospect. What is important for mental/emotional weight is what is happening in the moment. The original best of 3 placement for the championship brackets. (Based on how much further it puts them ahead, it is a very big deal. It's already a giant advantage being further up the championship as you're fresh and not been grinding out games, plus no matter how you do, you're guaranteed a high spot. Winners already have an advantage.) And at the end all that matters is an epic best of 7 competition.
Those past games don't come into a viewers experience except as a bit of history at the beginning. The actual finals tension comes from that particular set of matches. Hype is a very temporary/ in the moment sort of thing.
Edit
Also, as others have said, it is such a bad idea to sacrifice the gravity of the finals in the interests of making earlier games mean more. The entire point of the finals is to have this great climax. It's how any book or movie or any sports tournament is designed to operate. It's about storyline. The earlier games mean less, but you build and build until you get to the finals. It's supposed to be big.
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