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On October 19 2010 00:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 00:16 Kiante wrote:On October 18 2010 23:48 Phrencys wrote:
GJ posting replays, and quickly at that.
MLG > GSL for that single reason in my mind. Thank you for caring about the audience. you realise that every single GSL game gets casted while only about 1/10th of the games at MLG get casted, hence why replays are released. dont get bitter at gsl, they provide vods for all their games and stuff He probably just prefers replays. Or at least really likes having replays to look at even after watching the stream. Most people really like getting the replays
I actually appreciate both VoDs and replays. Replays are pretty good when you want to take a game apart on your own to check timings and whatnot. It's also a good way to reveal pros build orders other than adding them to your friend list and stalking them (which you can only do when tournaments are on your gateway anyway). 
VoDs are obviously more entertaining, but when I want to watch a game with the goal to learn and improve, I prefer replays.
I just don't understand why GSL refuse to hand them, but I'm getting off-topic.
Anyway, keep rocking, MLG!
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this is in the korean culture to not give replay
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8751 Posts
On October 19 2010 00:37 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 00:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On October 19 2010 00:16 Kiante wrote:On October 18 2010 23:48 Phrencys wrote:
GJ posting replays, and quickly at that.
MLG > GSL for that single reason in my mind. Thank you for caring about the audience. you realise that every single GSL game gets casted while only about 1/10th of the games at MLG get casted, hence why replays are released. dont get bitter at gsl, they provide vods for all their games and stuff He probably just prefers replays. Or at least really likes having replays to look at even after watching the stream. Most people really like getting the replays I can give him replays if he wants, i prefer to watch the real pros play in GSL any day over MLG.
Then give replays of GSL :o
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I'll be short and simple.
I believe that anyone who has ever had some professional experience with advertising will agree that these massively long breaks actually cheapen the value of your adds. Not because we all hate them so much but because all of us quickly learned that we have more than enough time to go cook something or even play some quick 2v2/3v3/4v4 games. Of course, it's probably an impossible task to convince your sponsors that they have to pay you the same money for showing the add just once instead of five times but I truly believe that it will be for their benefit as well.
Please, try to put an estimate time off air on screen. A bit more consistency would be nice... Like "After ro16 we'll have a 15 minute break. After ro8 - a 20 minute break." Even if you don't follow the plan strictly, it would be much better than letting us guess what to do.
I realise that it is extremely hard to run a massive event like this and that some of these things might sound impossible but you asked for feedback.
Also - the final should be your massive main amazing event. Give the winner of the losers' bracket some time to rest and hype it up. And, for Aiur's sake, don't make it a fucking best of three! The player from losers' bracket is likely to be so tired that the one from winners' bracket has an advantage anyway. And, even if he/she doesn't... who cares? Seriously, this was the biggest flaw of the whole tournament - two quick games and goodnight, guys, thanks for watching.
Finally... Octoshape is obviously a good deal for tournament organisers. That's fine. But seriously, is it completely impossible to include an alternative? I was restreaming the whole event to a friend of mine using Skype's video feature because he, like so many others, has problems with Octoshape. In his case the issue was that his modem was resetting his connection every two minutes while watching the stream, so it was two minutes MLG, one minute waiting for the connection to reappear.
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A few things:
1. If you're looking for new/different casters, Think of Diggity! He's an experienced, knowledgeable caster who could work with anybody and is overall a complete class act.
2. I really honestly believe that the extended series is terrible even in non-rts games, it's really incorrect. I think it's okay to do it for the finals only, but it shouldn't matter what the other player started with, it should just be a Bo7 with the winner from the winner's bracket starting 2-0 (rather than doing 2 Bo3). It just nobody cares about head to head records and I think it creates ridiculously perverse incentives. A 2-0 for a Bo3 shouldn't be treated any differently than a 2-1, players are playing to win the series, not to win the game.
3. The coverage was great, it would be ideal if you could provide updates during the cast if you're running behind and plan on adjusting the schedule.
4. The press situation was bad, you even made an effort saying you wanted more coverage and then didn't make sure it would work.
5. I think you could do the jumping into another game by just having idle observers ready to bring up on screen. Just add a few extra computer to the rig, the same streamers would be able to cut over.
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On October 19 2010 01:32 djWHEAT wrote:
Also I'm not representing MLG here, but having done a cast with them and seeing their setup (something I'm always interested in)... it's alot harder than many of you might think to just add a 2nd setup that mirrors the one they have just to cast some additional games. It took tons of equipment and another 4-5 guys running it just to get a single stream, you'd basically be doubling that just to try to pump out more games. From a spectator perspective of course even I wanna be greedy and say, "WE WANT MORE MATCHES", but putting on my "OK LET'S BE REALISTIC" hat, I could see where that would be alot of time and money invested. I can't speak for anybody else, but this isn't what I meant to be saying. I meant, rather, that it would be cool if something like this happened: "OK! Ret advances over Machine in a quick 2-0 series, so now we're going to wait until a new game starts in one of the other 31 matches, and then we'll jump in and broadcast that."
This might still take more people, because it would require that the broadcasters be fed information about games that have ended so that they can pick one of the just-starting games to watch. But I don't think they need to get a second full broadcast setup running. It would be enough to have the broadcasters jump into the middle of an ongoing match once a new game has started in that match. (It would also require some quick decision-making from the broadcasters about which match to jump to, but I think it's not unreasonable to ask that of them.)
On October 19 2010 01:15 Special Endrey wrote:
hearing a crowd cheer after 1 min , could indicate a double proxy - but doesn't have to - and tbh if a players throws his game away because he gets distracted by that - l2p This is just stupid. It doesn't have to mean a proxy, no, but it does mean that something unusual is happening, and at 1min into the game, if you aren't doing anything fancy, you now know that you need to be scouting more.
It's even worse if you can hear the commentators, of course. Then you can hear them talking about hidden expansions, tech paths, tech switches, army movements, army composition, etc. And if the commentators are loud enough for the crowd to hear, and you can hear the crowd, then you run a good chance of being able to hear the commentators.
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Stream on the first night was garbage. It was down for a long time and then when it came up it had contrast issues. It looked A LOT better on day 2 and i thought it was good quality for free.
I liked the coverage overall. I dont think you should charge 10 dollars when you barely show any of the games. A lot of games were not shown at all when there was a lot of in between time of nothing. you could even have the casters go back though some replays and cast the replay while you wait for the next match. Of course you would have to cut down on the spoilers then. Im not saying show the entire series but at least maybe a game 2 or game 3 here and there. Something besides just chatter.
Also, the stream crashed day 2 during the idra /qxc match so even day 2 was not perfect. What happened to the 3rd day. There was 3 days listed at first but then you cut a day off. Keep the 3rd day so you can cast more games. Plus it will give the gamers some downtime between games.
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It's even worse if you can hear the commentators, of course. Then you can hear them talking about hidden expansions, tech paths, tech switches, army movements, army composition, etc. And if the commentators are loud enough for the crowd to hear, and you can hear the crowd, then you run a good chance of being able to hear the commentators.
If you listen to the State of the Game from 10/16 you'll hear the players say they could not hear the commentators. Idra said he heard one word, here or there, but nothing unerstandable. Tyler (or maybe HuK?) said he heard cheers, but always thought they came from Halo. I'm not talking about the Mothership rush either.
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I made it out to the event on Saturday afternoon. I had never been to something like this and it was really a lot of fun. I want to re-iterate everything people have said regarding seating and not being able to hear the commentators unless you were right under the speakers
Some other suggestions:
1) I was there for seven hours and never once saw the brackets displayed on the main monitor, or even just taped to a post somewhere. There was a lot of downtime between matches in which the monitor just showed the MLG logo. Perhaps you could have had some kind of slideshow display that went through various brackets, summaries of the performance/status of popular players, etc. I recognize this would take time/energy, but it really would have added to the spectator experience.
For example, you could show a slide like:
Name:
ID:
[Headshot of Player]
Team:
Race:
Last Match: (Bracket / Opponent / Result)
Next Match: (Time / Bracket / Opponent)
Or something like that. You could cycle through these for everyone when the commercials weren't running or games weren't being covered. This would catch people up who were just sitting down / tuning in.
2) Have monitors showing additional games. You don't have to have commentators on these, or even stream them if it's too logistically difficult. But it seems like it would be easy enough to setup one additional spectator machine and just show it on a big monitor. You could have 2-3 of these with a few benches at each, and then have the big main event monitor with the commentators / stream, etc.
Overall, I had fun! Come back to DC!!!
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On October 19 2010 02:17 Cleomenes wrote:Show nested quote +It's even worse if you can hear the commentators, of course. Then you can hear them talking about hidden expansions, tech paths, tech switches, army movements, army composition, etc. And if the commentators are loud enough for the crowd to hear, and you can hear the crowd, then you run a good chance of being able to hear the commentators. If you listen to the State of the Game from 10/16 you'll hear the players say they could not hear the commentators. Idra said he heard one word, here or there, but nothing unerstandable. Tyler (or maybe HuK?) said he heard cheers, but always thought they came from Halo. I'm not talking about the Mothership rush either. Yeah, I'm not saying they could, or that MLG needs booths. I'm just saying that the reasoning in the post I was replying to was bad. He was saying, "It doesn't matter what they can hear!" and I thought that was pretty obviously wrong.
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To the guys going on about SeleCT being fatigued and that being why he lost:
If you listened to SotG 15b (I think it was in 15b?) all the guys in the podcast were in agreement that if SeleCT wants to win tournaments he has to become more versatile... Doing the same exact build every game, only winning because you are "faster" is not going to win a GSL.
IdrA knew exactly what SeleCT was going to do because he showed him his build order and did the exact same thing again the second game... I think it was Nony who said, "what's his build order? did he build a reaper? double hellion next, k..." or something to that effect.
Edit for feedback on MLG DC:
I watched the Octoshape stream from home. Yes, the delay at the beginning was annoying, but I found something to do with myself- so it was no great tragedy for me. I'm color deficient red (partially colorblind) so the contrast looked a bit lower than what I'm used to playing with- again, no great tragedy.
I thought it was hysterical when they panned to the audience and that chick had the sign saying, 'apologize for playing that race!' Lotta IdrA fans there. =0) I think the casters did a wonderful job on the games, whether it was Day9/wheat or Day9/JP, it was always pretty solid.
The only criticism I have is that the bracket was really slowly updated. The twitter or LiveFeed or whatever it was was miles ahead of the bracket. =0X
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Just a repeat of the same criticism of the first event (although in general this event was much better):
1. Stop picking pro vs. noob games to cast in the RO64, follow the favorites!!
2. The paid stream should not have advertisements. Period.
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Would like VODs of the matches with the original commentary, even if I have to pay for em.
Do these exist? If not, they should. Tell MLG. :D
BTW, awesome commentary on all the games. JP + Day[9] is my favorite casting duo! xD
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On October 19 2010 03:22 SteeJanS wrote:
Just a repeat of the same criticism of the first event (although in general this event was much better):
1. Stop picking pro vs. noob games to cast in the RO64, follow the favorites!!
2. The paid stream should not have advertisements. Period.
First game was ret vs machine, (that was casted). Then maybe one game after that wasn't high profile. They can't just jump in and cast, they have to be ready a head of time to cast a game and then join the game before it starts. So, they just joined what games they could.
Second, better to have advertisements than to have a dead stream. Sponsors are needed to make this bigger, get used to adds. We need them sadly.
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On October 19 2010 03:22 SteeJanS wrote:
2. The paid stream should not have advertisements. Period. Why on earth not?
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It was a blast being there, but the stream sucked. It froze constantly.
I disliked a few things: The admins kicked us off during the warmup games for a good ten minutes to tell us the rules. I assume it was technical difficulties that took so long, which should have been figured out before kicking us off. Also, the guy who told us the rules did so without a mic, so nobody could hear a word he said.
There weren't enough computers for everyone to play warmups at once(four of the computers didn't have SC2 installed). I was walking around for a long time, searching for one to use, then gave up and watched other events(Super Smash Brothers Brawl was absolutely stunning, yet it had no coverage).
The casting of the matches on the projector screen for the spectators was very quiet. People could barely hear anything. However, after the first day, the issue seemed to be solved.
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All in all, great event - $10 well spent despite the issues on day 1 because of the noticeable improvement in quality day 2. Hard to think of a better entertainment received vs dollars spent ratio (especially since I wasn't just watching SC2). Looking forward to going to Dallas to spectate.
Comments/suggestions:
- I've watched every MLG broadcast (for Halo) since mid/late '07, so it was actually quite surprising to see it start *hours* late (instead of the usual 5-15 minutes). There should have been an explanation, and it almost certainly turned off many of the HD subscribers, especially those who are just forming (or re-forming) their opinion of MLG based on how they handle SC2. Lee, there's no need to sugarcoat what's going on if the stream goes to hell -- I'd rather just be aware of what's actually happening instead of 'slight technical issue' live blog posts. And I know you guys are going through a huge tech transition right now, so it's not exactly a huge surprise that something came up that couldn't have been anticipated - it's just that I wanted to know what technical issue could have held up the entire event for 2 hours, especially when I'm paying $10 for the pleasure of watching it live.
- Closer to real-time bracket updates. This has been an issue for *years*, and although it's getting better, it's not clear why it hasn't been resolved much sooner. When the results are collected after each game, unless I'm missing something, part of the collection process should be to upload that result straight into whatever bracket application you guys have built so it's reflected online at the conclusion of the game/series. And if it's not easy enough to do that update post-game in the current framework, it sounds like that process needs to be optimized further (possibly by creating an iPhone/Android front-end for MLG refs, perhaps).
- Seemed like there would have been enough 'downtime' between series (even after accounting for commercial breaks) to accommodate additional interviews with players/etc.
- Lag. Though not really in your control, the lag is so damn annoying. I mean really, you guys talk to Blizzard - what in the hell is their justification for not even accommodating large-scale tournaments so they can ensure a lag-free competition? What good are they hoping to achieve by not making even reasonable exceptions? In fact, I don't even care what the answer is - it just needs to be *fixed*. As far as I'm concerned, it's a bug. Even if y'all have a fancy setup where virtually all the traffic is local, that SC2 client seems to be 'phoning home' throughout every match (not just when the players login), and so while Blizzard is reassured that the pro players haven't lifted an SC2 client midgame by having it constantly check in with its remote authentication servers, we get the pleasure of stop and go movement in game. *sigh* I know you guys are all about LAN though, so I imagine you're reinforcing that message when you talk to Blizzard, but this thread seemed like a convenient enough opportunity for me to vent about it.
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I attended the event live on both Friday and Saturday from 1630 Friday to 2330 and then 1130 Saturday until 1930.
First thing I noticed on Friday was that there was very little information at the event itself on the Starcraft schedule or where the station was. We swept through the room twice and could not find the Starcraft Area (because there was nothing on the screen at the time and no signage to indicate that's what would be played there later) and then asked one of the people at the registration desk where the Starcraft area was and even they didn't know. The only schedules we could find were for the main stage and other activities, for a schedule of Starcraft matches we had to rely on what we brought with us or our phones. Once the cast started it was really easy to find the right area.
The cast started late, I'm sure that's come up a few times, but more importantly the people at the event had no idea why it was delayed or even that it was delayed at all. Some announcements were made by Day 9, possibly others, but they were not made to the entire crowd and they were not done over any kind of speakers so coverage was very spotty and a lot of people, including myself, were confused as to what was going on.
The sound mixing was spotty. Sometimes everything would be easy to hear and then the source would switch to something else and it would be way to quiet. The level of noise in the all also varied throughout the day but the volume of the cast did not. Noise inflation can be an issue in convention halls but it would be nice if we could always hear the casters. The speaker coverage was pretty tiny as well. Many spectators had to sit or stand around the bleacher area and after a very short distance it become impossible to hear anything at all.
Bleachers are uncomfortable. Blah blah blah, whine whine whine.
The tournament format itself could use work I think. I love double elimination, I like that rematches are a best of 7 resuming the previous result of the last best of 3. I don't like that the finals were decided in only 2 matches, that's just too short. Winners finals, Losers finals, and the grand finals should all be best of 5 at a minimum extending to best of 9 for rematches in the grand finals I think.
Soundproof rooms are unnecessary and a little showy. Without a pair for every match it would be a little unfair for some players to enjoy them at not others given that spectators can yell stuff out no matter what game is being played on the big screen based on what they can see from the sidelines of the play stations. Circumaural headphones that are fully sealed should be issued by the event and mandatory for each game. With that provision spectators could watch from behind the players like they can for the halo stations which would be nice in the early stages when the game on the main screen isn't what someone necessarily wants to see.
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Cast more matches. I know it can't be GSL where every match is casted (weekend vs a month) but try to schedule more. Maybe you can start earlier in the day friday and not have as many concurrent matches?
Repeating the same ads over and over in large blocks is not effective advertising. No ad should be seen more than once in a block and preferably no more than once every two to three blocks.
In the non-match time when the commentators are speaking, use ambient footage more sparingly. The area is interesting, and its neat to see the crowds and their signs, but I'd rather spend more of my time looking at the commentators.
More player interviews.
Don't let the HD get off on the wrong foot like DC again. You need someone at the event who can check the stream and make the adjustments needed and is dedicated to that task. He should also have HD support forums access. Also, please aim to have the HD stream running at 720P. With a 2.2mbit bitrate, there was no reason you couldn't. It's somewhat misleading to charge for an HD cast that isn't at least 720P.
As far as the events themselves go, if you want to sell more passes to play, find cheaper hotels. I don't have a problem with covering the pass costs, but for example, $179 a night hotel does not make taking the trip to dallas a welcome figure in my budget.
Also I have noticed some requesting additional casters. Do not bring back HD and Husky. If you can get GunRun there, that's a good choice. As far as any other names go, please be very picky and no matter who you have, please keep Day[9] on the cast as much as he is willing and/or is practical. He is unparalleled in his casting performance and I can't imagine another caster out there who should be taking time from him.
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I was very pleased with the quality on Saturday, though the initial delay was rather frustrating, along with the weird contrast issues following it. I have purchased an HD pass both weekends and overall have been very satisfied. One thing I think that could be improved, would be to provide a Flash based, non Octoshape option for HD subscribers. Octoshape seems to be very unstable, and actually causes my router to crash every few hours (it tries to make too many simultaneous connections, and there is no way to disable it)
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EPT
