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I think the OP fails to recognize that bc armies generall have a marauder or marine accompenment, with the purpose of putting a sizable dent in the stalker army, while deterring blinks under the bcs. Think 5 battle cruisers with 15 marauaders, or 30 marines, and things start to get ugly
Of course the Protoss army should be going HT which counters all 3 of these units to a large degree and nullifies yamato which is the big issue with Protoss vs BC.
On the other hand the Terran can build ghosts to make the HT+VR a ton weaker.
Kind of hard to just describe the matchup with numbers..
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carrier are slightly slower then bcs, but bcs need to stop to attack, so you could outrun bcs and only get a few hits, though 2 yamatos = 1 carrier less. plus the bc could only focus on the interceptors, that as mentioned before do not much damage against bcs. With their high damage against air battlecruiser take air superiority pretty easy, their only enemy is the viking, since yamato can't kill enough of them. But with the lowered ground attack, ground units can take them out pretty easily. But last time i checked they could take out the immortals fast, so the thors/tanks have no problems against the stalkers xD.
I liked voidrays pretty much before patch, played them often in all matchups, with speed upgrade they were almost as fast as the phenix, so if you saw the enemy coming charge up on a warp gate and you won, with out many losses, since almost nothing can outrun speedrays. In attack you could use an ungarded enemy nexus to charge up. Also mothership is buildable, and you can warp your voidrays charged up whereever you wanted, or use the trap ability of the mothership, and wait with your charged voidrays till the enemy popped out again.
Though it is fun to watch them at the beginning, i lost some games because there could have been a hidden stargate *paranoid mode*. I think they are more balanced to use now, with the speed nerf, but i think the damage is a bit to less.
Oh ps: don't forget the corrupters ability for more damage, against voidrays. The ability is pretty evil and a must use if you fight with corrupters against bcs.
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carrier are slightly slower then bcs
Carriers are faster than BCs.
Carrier speed - 1.875
BC speed - 1.4062
Not trying to be a douche, just keeping the information accurate.
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Consider the following- to research Yamato cannon adds an additional cost to the Terran.
Also, feedback deals 200 damage to a full energy BC, I'd like to see what happens when you take that into account. I'd imagine with that 200 health decrease the void ray would prove very effective; need to test.
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You can EMP your own Battlecruisers and then Feedback is useless.
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On October 17 2010 20:36 Dionyseus wrote:
In the stalker vs BC scenarios, did you make full use of the yamato cannons?
No, didn't use them at all. I'll clarify that in the OP.
On October 17 2010 22:49 devolore wrote:
Out of curiousity, how do Carriers or even Phoenixes fare against BC's?
See OP. I tested 8 phoenixes vs 3 BC, which is about equal resource value. After the phoenixes were dead, one of the BCs reported a slight itch. Don't try this at home.
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On October 21 2010 04:23 YourMom wrote:
You can EMP your own Battlecruisers and then Feedback is useless.
Then you've effectively feedbacked yourself. O.o. I thought the point of Feedback was to prevent Yamato. If you're not going to Yamato anyway, then Protoss is happy. The Feedback damage is not that great.
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I heard that after this at patch a banshee does more damage than a fully charged void ray, is that true? If it is, lolz.
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On October 21 2010 04:43 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2010 04:23 YourMom wrote:
You can EMP your own Battlecruisers and then Feedback is useless. Then you've effectively feedbacked yourself. O.o. I thought the point of Feedback was to prevent Yamato. If you're not going to Yamato anyway, then Protoss is happy. The Feedback damage is not that great.
Actually, due to the fact that almost no terran uses yamato the second they see a protoss unit, feedback was mainly used to damage the battlecruiser.
Emp doesnt do damage and takes away all energy, feedback does damage and takes away all energy. There is a large difference.
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Another figure to note for zerg is that now
3 queens > 2 void rays
1 queen survives. This assumes no micro and no transfusion and that both void rays start the fight fully charged.
I do not believe that was the case before
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I don't get the reasoning that a Protoss unit mix beats BC. Why don't the BC get a mix as well? Ghost + BC is damn strong. 2 EMP + 1 Yamato insta kills a Carrier and 1 EMP + Yamato insta kills Colossi as well as substantially weakening anything around it. Ghost also counter the Templar and Sentry which are prime counters to the BC. EMP also severely weakens Stalkers so that BC easily clean them up when reduced to half hp. These units compliment each other beautifully. Early game SCV repair makes BC highly effective when rushed.
Also I have tested it before but BC will always beat Carriers if the BC has Yamato to use. The BC will kill the Interceptors faster than the Carrier can replace them so even if they stay back out of range they will soon lose their means of attack. It is the Ghost that especially rapes Carrier fleets horribly when combined with BC. As then it just requires 1 Yamato per Carrier to wipe out their whole fleet. 1 Ghost can fire several EMP to hit multiple Carriers even if they are kinda spread out.
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What about Corruptors?
- 1 VR kills one Corruptor and takes only shield damage
- 1 VR gets killed by 2 Corruptors, with one of the Corruptors surviving on low health.
- 6 VRs (1500/900) vs 10 Corruptors (1500/1000) is about an equal match; either 1 VR or 1 Corr. might survive.
Did u factor in corruption with that test? because the 20% dmg boosts helps quite a bit and its a free skill.
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dude you discount micro.
Microed carriers will rape BCS.
Stalkers with blink will rape BCS.
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On November 19 2010 13:14 RiceMuncher wrote:
dude you discount micro.
Microed carriers will rape BCS.
Stalkers with blink will rape BCS.
Yeah cuz the guy is gonna get ONLY BC's no mauraders or marines.
well microed carriers do well though.
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You need like..really well upgraded stalkers+blink+storm+feedback to beat BCs...
If you are skipping Templar and getting Void Rays/Stalkers only, expect to be destroyed by MMM. You need storm to deal with the infantry, help with the BCS (more than most people think), and feedback to prevent Yamoto and do damage.
Of course you have tons of Stalkers with upgrades to meat shield/add damage, and prevent escape with Blink.
If you don't think you need High Templar, just wait until you meet someone who knows how to use PDD with Battlecruisers. Ugh.
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On November 19 2010 13:25 VenerableSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:14 RiceMuncher wrote:
dude you discount micro.
Microed carriers will rape BCS.
Stalkers with blink will rape BCS. Yeah cuz the guy is gonna get ONLY BC's no mauraders or marines. well microed carriers do well though.
yamato cannon > carriers no prob. You would need way more carriers than BCs for it to be semi effective.
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I don't know if this has been pointed out in the last 5 pages since I can't be bothered to go through them, but BCs will never be on their own. They will always have a bunch of SCVs repairing them. High health, high armor, and repairing makes BCs very hard to destroy, and that's what gives them their power.
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Everytime someone brings in FEEDBACK!!!1, You do realize the terran can also bring in EMP, which not only counters your Feedback by outranging it, it also happens to wipe out all the shields and make terran own more? There's a reason why it is kept to a 1v1 unit composition.
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So, basically what i got out of this is that void rays have turned into the scout: a pretty useless unit that will never be used. I also think that since carriers are never used, unless its another cheese, this limits the protoss to a ground army. This limitation may be what is holding back protosses as far as variability is concerned,
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I did some further testing with the Void Ray, and more specifically, in the realm of Protoss vs. Zerg. I was doing some in depth thinking about the Void Ray as a unit. I thought about its inherent capabilities and properties. Then I used the Unit Tester to see the Void Ray's performance. I did my best to focus fire and kite, even turning game speed to slowest so I could maximize my micro ability. I thought you guys might be interested with my findings.
Void Rays vs. Brood Lords
1 Void Ray (cost: 250/150) vs. 1 Brood Lord (cost: 300/250):
-> VR wins with 100 shields and 150 health.
2 Void Rays (cost: 500/300) vs. 1 Brood Lord (cost: 300/250):
-> BLs dead, 2 VRs left, with a combined 200 shields and 300 health.
6 Void Rays (cost:1500/900) vs. 3 Brood Lords (cost: 900/750):
-> Very close match, but the Void Rays eke out on top with 600 shields and 900 health.
11 Void Rays (cost: 2750/1650) vs. 7 Brood Lords (cost: 2100/1750):
-> 11 VRs left, combined 1100 shields and 1650 health.
I realize the unit tester is highly artificial, but I'm fairly sure that Void Rays could be a useful unit to use against only Brood Lords. Obviously further testing is going to be required until we can make such a powerful claim, but I hope this has shown people how to really think about how units function in this world, and more importantly, about how this clearly shows how op terran is.
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EPT
