Personally, I have found HT/blink stalker a more effective counter. With so many stalkers, it's harder for the Terran to focus yamato's before you can feedback. And while you are "only" doing max 200 damage for a feedback, even doing half that is a 100 damage dealer instantly. If you catch a BC with full energy, it will take only 3 micro'd volleys from a 10 stalker army to kill that BC (20 dmg to armored units, I'm not going into upgrades because its 1am)- which isn't unheard of having if you're already late enough for BC's.

Now, while some people have mentioned that there will be "other units" - that's not the intention of this post. The question was can void rays still counter battle cruisers post 1.1.2- I do not think they can, and the numbers seem to show that they can't, but I believe that feedback/blink stalkers can be an effective counter

RoMarX

Argentina189 Posts

November 19 2010 06:14 GMT

#102

On October 16 2010 03:37 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:

Show nested quote +

The correct counter against BCs in PvT is proper play. There's no way a T should be able to get more than one or two BCs unless Toss lets them uberturtle and doesn't punish them for investing heavily in air. In that case toss can easily pump enough stalkers off 3 bases worth of gateways to deal with BCs should they become a problem, esp. if HT are around. I can't imagine any realistic scenario pre- or post-patch between skilled players where terran goes BC and protoss thinks -- dang I've gotta get VRs right now!

I only see this being an issue in 2v2s or lower level play where players let one another mass up off of two bases (in either case a VR nerf is probably a good thing).

this 100%. To make a decent amount of BCers the T needs to turtle VERY HARD on 2 bases, and if the P is half decent he can just take map control and when the T can leave his base the P will be in 4 base vs 2 base and he ll win with anything, so the cost-effective thing doesnt matter at all, just make units that can hit air.
When is cross position in maps like Meta or LT maybe the T can take a lot of bases and put 5-6 starports without suffering too much, but still i dont think BCs would be the better choice.
so IMO this thread doesnt have any sense, BCs sucks in real games, mb it can be a good all in to make a fast battle cruiser and bring a lot of scvs vs protoss, but with the last patch that reduced their damage its weaker...

cannavaro

Italy86 Posts

November 19 2010 06:28 GMT

#103

If a bc starts channeling it's yamato, let's say with full 200 energy, will he lose the cost before or after the yamato actually fires? If it's after it fires, will feedback completely cancel out the yamato?

CruisEric

35 Posts

November 19 2010 06:43 GMT

#104

can you dodge yamato cannon with blink? i know it's not likely because you can't tell which stalkers are being targeted, and you won't have the precision to select a single stalker in a group of say, 10 and then blink it in time, but from what I've seen in Warcraft 3, Blinking allows you to dodge many spells that have to travel to hit you, and even some normal attacks, sort of like Brood War dropship + tank micro against dragoons. I believe Cloaking and Burrowing also allow you to dodge some missile attacks / spells.

On November 19 2010 15:28 cannavaro wrote:
If a bc starts channeling it's yamato, let's say with full 200 energy, will he lose the cost before or after the yamato actually fires? If it's after it fires, will feedback completely cancel out the yamato?

I believe casting Feedback during channeling will cancel the Yamato completely before it can fire.

Scila

Canada1849 Posts

November 19 2010 06:48 GMT

#105

Why this matters I do not know. Battlecruisers are godawful in their current state, they get countered by half the units in the game, and can be kited/chased down due to their horrible movement speed.

FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

November 19 2010 07:05 GMT

#106

Well normally i wouldn't go for bcs in a pvt, because of hts, not because of feedback because of storms xD. Anyway if i would go for em, i would have some siege tanks below them and ghosts a little bit behind against blink stalkers. Sounds like alot of gas ^^. So i guess alot of marines would also stick arround ^^. If the terran plays well you won't get any feedbacks on the bcs and he won't be stopped by voidrays, if he playes bad you will get some feedbacks down and storm down the marines while your voidrays destroy the bcs.
If its bcs only i would use blink stalkers and have a sentry with em, since if the terran doesn't snipe the sentrys it will hurt his damage output.

Atm i use battlecruiser in really late game zvt or tvt. when it goes for 200 supply battles in tvt, if you have the air dominance with 3/3 there is nothing you can do against battlecruisers except of mass turrets. (well tanks outrun battlecruiser, so you still need some kind of fast ground forces) But once everything is mined out you can take your buildings with you xD and use mules for repair xD (yeah had some long tvts).
In zvt, if you manage to go for vikings and air upgrades without loosing to mutas early on. The battlecruiser is really evil against mutas while the vikings can protect them against corrupters. A few ravens would make any bigger fights look pretty evil. And hydras ... well try hydras against landed vikings xD.
Still battlecruiser being the slowest unit ingame (carriers are faster xD), needing alot of support , you can simply outrun them. (and the zerg will simply outmacro you if you try to go for bcs fast)

Just played toss before the patch so i can't say much about those, otherwise i used them in pvp, since everyone went for colossi, its an easy win, since when he moves out you kill his production and return home before his armys arrives. (you have to precharge your voidrays before battle, otherwise they will never charge up ^^). Used them against zerg as well if my phoenix did survive and he trys to prevent the harassment by going for spore crawlers. Both things shouldn't work that well since of the speed upgrade nerf.
Though i found out even before the patch that immortals just do better, then voidrays and phoenix are more then enough for harass.

PS: yamato is like death coil, it follows you anywhere xD. saw a mothership recall once and the yamato flew right to the other side of the map. (cast was done though after the warp finished completly i think.) But i would say blink doesn't help there.

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

November 19 2010 07:09 GMT

#107

Yes feedback will cause the yammato cannon to not actually fire. VRs + HT to feedback are the best/most economical counter to BCs. Of course depending on how the match unfolds when you spot BCs in a real game situation that might not exactly be a feasible option.

Grond

599 Posts

November 19 2010 07:18 GMT

#108

Feedback is not very good against BC's for several reasons. First even though it outranges Yamato he will have units in front of the BC's to snipe your 80 health HT. Second by the time you get in range if your HT's are still alive he will probably have already fired the Yamatos. Third even if you do get a feedback off its not going to put a very big dent in a BC's health, the prevention of the Yamato is actually a bigger benefit than the damage done.

Dfgj

Singapore5922 Posts

November 19 2010 07:23 GMT

#109

VRs with ht/stalker is the best counter. You want ground units anyways (since you no doubt have any number of gates), so stalkers are a must. HTs are needed to stop Yamatos from clearing out your voids, dealing burst damage, and clearing away any SCVs the Terran is bringing. VRs do damage.

The risk of T having ground units isn't that high because he won't be able to invest in that many, and probably isn't making medivacs - so storm blows through what he has and sets you up to engage the BCs.

There are plenty of Ts who fall back on this after a 2port banshee build, and turtle hardcore on 2/3 bases to get it. It is annoying.

Xapti

Canada2473 Posts

November 19 2010 09:51 GMT

#110

I hope this hasn't been mention a lot already, but carriers have longer range and faster movement than BCs, enabling them to kill BCs very efficiently assuming there is no support.

Against Mutas, VRs still pretty much suck:
- 1 VR kills 2 Mutas but is on low health.

What the hell, really? that's pretty damn good isn't it? VRs cost less gas and less supply than 2 mutas. Sure Phoenix are cheaper and can kill 2 mutas (only 2v1, not 2:1 ratio), but they can't really attack ground and they are good only vs unarmored.

Thrombozyt

Germany1269 Posts

November 19 2010 10:22 GMT

#111

On October 16 2010 00:12 Zihn wrote:
The end all be all answer to all toss air vs BC is Yamamoto cannon, it totaly flips all cost questions greatly into the BC's favor with the exception of the phoenix.. but that thing might as well be throwing peanuts at the BC with it's mighty 2x2 dmg

what toss needs is for blizz to release the Scout for multiplayer as it would be that instant "high" dmg anti armoured flyer that toss needs to change PvP away from colossi power strugle along with providing an actual counter to viking, BC and coruptors

my 2 cents anyhow

Bring in the Scout and remove the VR? Yay! I'm on board with that. BCs aren't exactly viable anyhow in TvP and it removes the dreaded high AtG DPS of the VR.

qxc

United States550 Posts

November 19 2010 10:40 GMT

#112

The tests need to include a VR pre-charged case. Good protosses will avoid engaging except with void rays that are already charged if they can help it.

Also a comparison of +1 armor vs. +1 weapons on bc vs. carrier would be insightful as well as talking about how well carriers can kite bcs (if at all... I don't recall)