One of the more controversial changes of patch 1.1.2 is the Void Ray nerf. Many people in the patch notes thread say that the VR was originally meant to counter Battlecruisers, which it supposedly won't be able to do any longer because of the drastically decreased bonus damage especially to armored. So I loaded up the Unit Tester and tried to find out what the VR might be good for now and what Protosses can do against BCs. Here are some of the results. All tests were done without any upgrades. Both opposing groups of units were target fired to kill enemy units as efficiently as possible, i.e. one after the other.
(Disclaimer: Yes, I know, the unit tester creates a highly artificial situation and the results have to be taken with a big grain of salt because in a real game lots of other factors come into play; factors which are also the reason why some say there are no "hard counters" at all. Still, the unit tester and also the concept of hard counters can give you a general idea of a unit's damage output and performance against another unit.)
Battlecruiser versus Void Ray
1 Battlecruiser vs. 1 Void Ray: -> BC wins with ~380 health left
3 BCs (cost: 1200/900) vs. 3 VR (cost: 750/450) -> VRs dead, 2 BCs on pretty much full health left
5 BCs (2000/1500) vs. 10 VRs (2500/1500): -> BCs dead, 5 VRs left
10 BCs (4000/3000) vs 10 VRs (2500/1500): -> 6 BCs left
So, I would conclude that while VRs are no eat-em-alive hard counter to BCs, they do fairly well against a BC fleet of equal cost. Also, they still outrun BCs even without the speed upgrade.
Edit: Crosswind and NukeTheBunnys point out that the comparison needs to take the Yamato Cannon into account. Thats's true. Since Void Rays have 150 life and 100 shields and Yamato does 300 damage, BCs can 1-shot VRs without taking any serious damage at all. So in the above scenario of 10 VRs vs 5 BCs, the Terran player could quickly kill 5 VRs with Yamato. Then it would be 5 to 5, which the BCs win with their normal weapons easily (4 BCs remaining).
This gives quite an edge to BCs. One more reason to use consider using Stalkers instead.
Another Edit: Why didn't I mention Feedback? Simply because it's arguably not effective enough to be considered a counter. One Feedback can deal 200 damage max, when the BC's energy is maxed. In most cases it will be much less, and even in this best case the BC has 350 health left and Protoss still has to worry about how to kill it.
Maybe Feedback shouldn't be considered a damage dealer so much as a counter to (read: prevention of) Yamato. Either way, in countering BCs, HTs are support units, comparable maybe to Sentries with some well-placed guardian shields to make Stalkers even more effective.
Stalkers vs. Battlecruisers
Some people suggest Stalkers as P counters agains BCs. So let's see.
5 Stalkers (625/250) vs. 1 BC (400/300): -> 3 Stalkers survive, one of them damaged
10 Stalkers (1250/500) vs. 1 BC: -> 9 Stalkers survive
20 Stalkers (2500/1000) vs. 6 BCs (2400/1800): -> assuming that the terrain allows for the whole Stalker group to fire, I have about 6 Stalkers left when the BCs are dead. When you just a-move and there are obstacles, Stalkers easily get stuck behind each other, allowing BCs to win the battle.
I found that 10 Stalkers (1250/500) are about equal in strength to 3 BCs (1200/900). Depending on the accuracy of my micro and target firing, I sometimes had one severely damaged BC left and sometimes one Stalker.
Again, considering the cost, Stalkers do quite well, and I'd say Blink Stalkers is the way to go vs. BCs.
Clarification edit: I did not use Yamato in the BC/Stalker tests (or anywhere else for that matter). So I guess you could discount one Stalker for each BC, assuming all BCs would one-shot one of them before the actual battle - although in real game situations the BCs will not always have enough energy. If they do, Stalkers still give you a better deal than Void Rays against Yamato because they're cheaper and faster to produce. Vs. Stalkers a BC commander would also have to consider that the Yamato stops the BC from firing for a moment, making it more vulnerable to blinking Stalkers.
Archons: Power overwhelming?
If Protoss went HT, he can use Archons against BCs as well:
1 BC kills 2 Archons, but has only about 70 HP left. 3 Archons kill 1 BC with 2 Archons surviving, making the deal cost efficient. But obviously due to their little range and relative immobility (they're much faster than BCs, but a good Terran will use cliffs to his advantage), Archons can only be of limited use against BCs.
Phoenix into the ashes
As expected, Phoenixes can't do much for poor P. Just for fun, I put 8 Phoenixes, which cost 1200/800, against 3 BCs (1200/900). The Phoenixes do not manage to take a BC down before they're all gone.
Carriers vs. Battlecruisers
Some people are predicting Carriers to become more important, and my testing showed that they might also be useful against BCs in some situations. Some data:
- 1 Battlecruiser vs. 1 Carrier: BC wins and has 200 HP left. - 3 BCs vs. 3 Carriers: 2 BCs survive, one of them down to ~340 HP. - 8 BCs (cost: 3200/2400) vs. 9 Carriers (3150/2250): About 2 BCs survive. Toss can turn this around with a +1 air weapon upgrade: 5 Carriers survive! So, if you can sneak an upgrade advantage, your Carriers can deal with the BCs nicely.
But it remains quite a gamble. Terran might switch to Vikings. There's also Yamato, although Yamato isn't as bad as it is with Void Rays because it doesn't one-shot Carriers (it depletes all their shields and leaves them with 150 HP). Another downside is the hidden cost of Carriers, the 4 interceptors you have to build for 100 minerals, making Carriers cost more minerals than BCs (so the 9 Carriers of the above comparison would actually be 4050/2250).
So you can use them, but use them wisely.
Does the Void Ray uncharged buff help vs. Marines?
Since the Void Ray's uncharged beam got a buff, one could assume that early game rushes agains T became more viable because T is likely to have marines and the VR will kill them quicker when it arrives uncharged (and to pre-charge it and keep it charged is not easy when you have other units to micro at the same time). However, I found that one VR still dies to 4 marines in a head-on battle. It can take on 3, having its shields depleted and taking some damage.
Void Ray vs. Zerg
What about Corruptors?
- 1 VR kills one Corruptor and takes only shield damage - 1 VR gets killed by 2 Corruptors, with one of the Corruptors surviving on low health. - 6 VRs (1500/900) vs 10 Corruptors (1500/1000) is about an equal match; either 1 VR or 1 Corr. might survive.
Against Mutas, VRs still pretty much suck: - 3 Mutas kill a VR with 2 Mutas surviving - 1 VR kills 2 Mutas but is on low health.
Vs. Zerg base defenses:
- 1 VR dies to 1 Spore Crawler which has 110 HP left - 2 VRs kill 1 Spore Crawler, one of them will be on low health if not microed - 1 VR still kills 1 Queen but takes considerable damage.
I didn't test VRs against Hydras because they were always weak against them exept when charged, speed-upgraded and in large numbers.
Thanks for reading, hope you find it useful.
On October 21 2010 05:35 TanukTanukTuk wrote: Another figure to note for zerg is that now
3 queens > 2 void rays
1 queen survives. This assumes no micro and no transfusion and that both void rays start the fight fully charged.
I do not believe that was the case before
Thanks! I tested it and it didn't matter if the VRs were charged or not.
And there are always 20 scvs repairing bcs. Late game bcs are beatable but when people rush bc with ground army, you got only vr counter but right now it is nonexistant
interesting. seem like Toss don't have a true "hard counter" to BCs, but they def. have some cost effective options, and Void Rays are still among them
You forgot about one thing when comparing the BC to VR, Yamato cannon. It lets the BC instantly take out as many void rays as there are BC, which was always the case, which is why I have always thought expensive things are a bad counter to BC and that its much better to use a bunch of blink stalkers because taking out 6 of 20 stalkers is a lot less damaging then taking out 6/10 void rays
I think since WG is so versatile it shouldn't be ignored how powerful 1 sentry with GS can be against BCs(even while it will be shot down fast, it will have negated tons of dmg).
That being said, while VR is AtA and AtG, it limits the AtA capability of toss a lot, which is imo the main problem.
Can't Carriers kite BCs pretty much indefinitely? They're faster, and as someone on this forum showed, their effective attacking "range" when Interceptors are out is ludicrous, the longest attack range in the game outside of HSM. Especially with Graviton Catapult, I'd think Carriers could take down BCs. Or does Yamato Cannon tip things far enough in the BCs favor to give them the win in a matchup of Capital ships?
Carriers take 1 damage from BC's when they have guardian shield up.
Since bc's move so slow you can probably just micro the carrier + sentries in a way that BC's can only hit you for 1's, or if he moves you can just move back and he still takes damage from interceptors.
You took a look at voidray vs other anti air- I think the whole point of the patch was to make them viable elsewhere!!
PvP has always been a giant colo monster mash- EVERY single game was 2 gate robo, then doing fun stuff there. Phoenix's weren't that effective vs protoss as they are against zerg
but now, VR's will actually do really well against robo tech- namely the colossus. Maybe not as powerful as vikings or corrupters vs colos- but just the level 1 damage alone of VR means they can harm the colo if it doesn't have stalker support. (and with your main army engaging as well the stalkers won't be protecting the colo 100% of the time) could you perhaps do the match calculations of VR vs some non AA units?- I think that will prove that VR's can now get implemented into your main army comp, instead of being some sort of gimmicky harassing unit.
Specifically, I want to see how well the VR does against an immortal-always a big pain in PvP. If you examine it closely- you'll see that the VR does 10 damage vs armored units in level 1-this is JUST under the threshold of immorts hardened shield. The thing I want to know is that will the VR level 1 attack drain the shields of an immort fast enough that when the level 2 attack hits, will there still be hardened shields to prevent the excess damage? This would also allow the VR to charge up on the immort, and once that is dead it now has the still powerful level 2 attack to be used against any stalkers/zealots
2 gate robo vs fast stargate is the MU to look for.
Edit: Oh and maybe if protoss players opt for early VR's that itself lends to an easier transition into carriers. I think we might finally see some dynamic mirror matches where VR carrier fleets will take on stalker colos!!
I think the OP fails to recognize that bc armies generall have a marauder or marine accompenment, with the purpose of putting a sizable dent in the stalker army, while deterring blinks under the bcs. Think 5 battle cruisers with 15 marauaders, or 30 marines, and things start to get ugly. It's like banshee marine, while the stalkers may be cost effecient against banshees, and AoE options are avaiblible for marines, when combined they mow over stalkers and are a bit more durable against storm.
EDIT: People say carriers will get popular, i think this is true only in pvp, where the main air to air counter has been nerfed. I think the pvp match up will have a lot of fient fast gas 4 gates into carriers, while the other player must call this bluff, and mass expo gateway units. Carrier Gateway against Gateway seems pretty cool to me. I want to see the opponent abuse the lack of mobility.
In PvT, you don't really go for carriers, just cause if you do, you invested a major amount of money away from something that can kill bc's (In an even game, the threat of a transition is always out there in the lategame). Vikings battlecruiser loses the corrupter effect (that is, you make too many a-a units and get rolled by the 20 warpgate ground army), and the BC's are pretty good at tanking and taking out interceptors.
PvZ, corrupters are just too fast, I doubt there is a carrier transition that does not leave a moderate sized hole for the zerg to drone up. Carrier templar stalker is probably the way to go, storming hydras and corrupters.
I will say, one thing I do really like about the Void nerf is that it might mean we see more Carrier play. Carriers have been a favorite of mine in BW, and I've long thought they're underestimated in SC2--a few Carriers with attack upgrades can chew through an entire army in seconds.
I think people were referring to actual armies where the Terran had added BC's. I expect Protoss will struggle pretty badly there due to Vikings, Marines and Medivacs. If you can find a combo that works well I'd certainly like to know what it is.
The end all be all answer to all toss air vs BC is Yamamoto cannon, it totaly flips all cost questions greatly into the BC's favor with the exception of the phoenix.. but that thing might as well be throwing peanuts at the BC with it's mighty 2x2 dmg
what toss needs is for blizz to release the Scout for multiplayer as it would be that instant "high" dmg anti armoured flyer that toss needs to change PvP away from colossi power strugle along with providing an actual counter to viking, BC and coruptors
I think people were referring to actual armies where the Terran had added BC's. I expect Protoss will struggle pretty badly there due to Vikings, Marines and Medivacs. If you can find a combo that works well I'd certainly like to know what it is.
I wonder how an upgraded Gateway army + HTs would do. Feedback puts a sizable hole in BCs and either kills Medivacs or renders them useless, Storm devastates mass bio. Guardian shield + Blink Stalkers makes them very cost effective against BCs. Chargelots chew through bioballs pretty well. Forcefield can screw with their positioning and allow Blink Stalkers to get into a good position to attack the BCs.
It seems like upgraded Gateway army + HTs has potentially all the tools one would need to bring down a Battlecruiser + MMM army. The key would be having enough energy in your sentries and HTs, and using your spells really well--one feedback when you should have stormed, or forcefield when you'd have been better off with a guardian shield, could really screw you.
what toss needs is for blizz to release the Scout for multiplayer as it would be that instant "high" dmg anti armoured flyer that toss needs to change PvP away from colossi power strugle along with providing an actual counter to viking, BC and coruptors
Please don't bring back the Scout. Even if it was made viable, it is still a joke of unit. Not cool at all, not interesting at all.
If Voids were given their 7 range back, they could kite BCs, which would mean that as long as you had more Voids then they had uses of Yamato Cannon, Voids would counter them, albeit fairly slowly.
Wouldn't the protoss mix of units be the counter to BC's? I could easily see a protoss army consisting of some number of high templar, sentries, and stalkers (along with other units of course) being really effective against not only the BC's themselves but against the rest of the army tagging along with them. Feedback destroys stuff that likes to pool energy like BC's. At the very least, Yamato would be less of a factor.
I wouldn't mind if pheonix and VR were switched up kinda. Phoenix's able to attack ground and air but VR's only attack air but do like 7-8 (+4-5 vs armored) uncharged and do 10 (+10) charged vs armored.
Maybe even nerf phoenix damage a bit. That way they would be able to still take out light air units (muta mostly, through micro even with damage nerf) still have a place with GB by taking important units (Siege tanks/infestors/etc) out of the fight, or supporting an army with more damage, and VR's would become a true counter to non-light air.
On October 16 2010 00:02 Snowfield wrote: What if every BC has a yamato readY?
But yeah, cool and all, but no one ever sends 1->10 BCs into anything on their own
Yes, this is the limitation of this kind of unit testing I was talking about. But ... why do you guys assume that the Void Rays and Stalkers will be on their own then?
I was mainly concerned with the two issues here:
1. The claim that post-patch VRs are too weak to deal with BCs and 2. The question what Protoss has in its arsenal to counter BCs.
So saying that the BCs will have ground support misses the point, since ground support is a tactical issue that has nothing to do with the patch and Void Ray nerf. I was testing the variables that were changed, ie. damage output of units.
When I say "Stalkers can do XY" I'm obviously not implying that Stalkers will be able to freely wander around the map as they please in all situations.
I think people were referring to actual armies where the Terran had added BC's. I expect Protoss will struggle pretty badly there due to Vikings, Marines and Medivacs. If you can find a combo that works well I'd certainly like to know what it is.
I wonder how an upgraded Gateway army + HTs would do. Feedback puts a sizable hole in BCs and either kills Medivacs or renders them useless, Storm devastates mass bio. Guardian shield + Blink Stalkers makes them very cost effective against BCs. Chargelots chew through bioballs pretty well. Forcefield can screw with their positioning and allow Blink Stalkers to get into a good position to attack the BCs.
It seems like upgraded Gateway army + HTs has potentially all the tools one would need to bring down a Battlecruiser + MMM army. The key would be having enough energy in your sentries and HTs, and using your spells really well--one feedback when you should have stormed, or forcefield when you'd have been better off with a guardian shield, could really screw you.
A pure BC army can easily be countered by going a mix of Sentry, Stalker, HT or in other tearms a mixed army of ground units.
The problem is that if toss goes air both terran and zerg can counter it with either ground or air whatever fits they mood the best, however if zerg og terran goes air your prety mutch forced to counter it with ground with the exception of mutas. And yes you can trade phoenixes with vikings but thats just trading not countering but nonetheless effective to help keep vikings off your colossi
The problem is that if toss goes air both terran and zerg can counter it with either ground or air whatever fits they mood the best, however if zerg og terran goes air your prety mutch forced to counter it with ground with the exception of mutas. And yes you can trade phoenixes with vikings but thats just trading not countering but nonetheless effective to help keep vikings off your colossi
This is true.
However, there is sort of an opposite equivalent, which is the Colossus.
If a Toss player builds Colossi, Terran and Zerg *have* to go air, as once there are more than 5 Colossi with the range upgrade, essentially everything on the ground is instantly melted, especially if the Toss also builds Chargelots to deal with Terran mech.
Terran and Zerg don't have a ground equivalent that forces Toss to go air. Every ground unit in their arsenal can be beaten by the right Toss ground unit.
Simply put, Toss are more dominant on the ground, but lose out by being relatively weak in the air.
Which is kinda funny, because in BW it was the opposite--Toss were the kings of the skies.
unless the Terran SOmehow got like a mass of battlecruisers but you shouldnt of let that happen! not many ppl ever even got to get upgraded voids in the first place.. i saw it maybe 1 out of every 100 TVPs
the nice thing about this is you'll almost certainly have leftover minerals, which you can dump into chargelots, who kick ass against the bio army Terrans use to supplement BCs
I think now, stalkers are really more cost efficient than BCs then are void rays because if you manage to win a battle against 6 BCs with 20 stalkers, then he'll take ages to rebuild his BCs but stalkers don't take as long to be rebuilt.
Thanks for the interesting thread. I would like to note the importance of charging the VRs before going into battle, especially after the latest patch (1.1.2). I imagine the results would be quite different. I assume no charging was done before going into battle in this test.
Thanks for the interesting thread. I would like to note the importance of charging the VRs before going into battle, especially after the latest patch (1.1.2). I imagine the results would be quite different. I assume no charging was done before going into battle in this test.
This is a good point. Even though it was substantially nerfed, precharging still gives a huge boost to VR effectiveness.
On October 16 2010 01:51 Artifice wrote: One carrier can kill infinity battlecruisers without taking any damage. That's a pretty hard counter if you ask me.
uhh...against an ai, but certainly not against a human player
On October 16 2010 01:51 Artifice wrote: One carrier can kill infinity battlecruisers without taking any damage. That's a pretty hard counter if you ask me.
The beam has 10 range+ up to 20 during anim time vs the 8 range to unload interceptors
The testing with the VR's is very off. BC's cost much more then VR's, and more supply. So then why are you testing them 1 to 1? 2:1 is much closer to even, in which case I believe the VR would destroy the BC's.
In real situations there are also a huge number of things to consider. In VR vs BC, for example, is the VR charged or not? unless you are in a defensive position with proper scouting, it's unlikely that the VR will be charged. prepatch, that ensures that the VR's start at a huge disadvantage. However, because the uncharged damage is higher, it can only be an advantage.
Then there is the struggle the terran has in getting BC's out. The BC's have a huge build time, and require starports with tech labs, which most terran don't use frequently. The protoss can easily outproduce VR's, if the toss scouts it appropriately.
I'd like more information about these variables, for example uncharged VR's versus BC's, and how many it takes to bring one down. Also charged VR's, and how many more are needed to match the dps of pre-patch VR's. Also, the addition of Yamato Cannon should also be factored.
The fact that void rays for cost are about equal with battlecruisers is pretty sick considering that VRs are supposed to be the 'counter'
The test here doesn't take into account some very obvious things:
1. In small fleets, there will likely be SCVs repairing the BC(s)
2. If you are trying to mass void rays, theres a good chance your opponent will mix in some vikings
3. Yamato cannon will likely be researched in the case of large battles... this effectively doubles the amount of VRs you need and makes them no longer cost effective.
4. There is no Protoss single unit that is cost-effective against a BC (except for high templar, but you can't kill them with feedback alone). Stalkers and VRs in some situations (optimal terrain, no yamato/scv repair) can break even, but thats as good as it gets ( !!!???). On the other side of the coin, void rays are not cost effective against T1 marines.
5. If a BC fleet is supplemented with some marauders, stalkers become useless.
This all kind of pisses me off as a protoss player. Every single unit in the game has a 'counter' that is pretty cost effective (except perhaps the archon in ZvP, but they aren't massable air units due to their large size, low speed and range).
Currently it seems that if T can get BCs out on even footing with Protoss, the game is over barring some major tactical/micro error by T.
If you are talking BCs you should also be talking carriers. If you are against a BC marauder/bio army you should have at least a couple of carriers to engage that fight. Those carriers will will keep your stalkers alive. If they dont keep the stalkers alive, then the carriers themselves will be killing the bio off. Good protoss air mixes, believe it or not, should beat good terran air mixes, but the carrier is the key.
I honestly think with this new patch protoss players need to really work on getting to carrier tech/collo tech/ or templar tech safely somehow, beginning their approach on two bases and adding a layer of tech with your 3rd, either of the other two branches you didnt go in the first place... I think really what its going to boil down to to become succesful with protoss is realizing every one of your units is important and you cant just throw them away and warp in new ones anymore. You really need to hang on to that early game stuff and micro exceptionally because I dont think its going to cut it anymore to throw all your gas at templar, you'll have to make like only 4 or 5 and micro them well and spread them out etc etc. Then your other gas needs to go into getting enough of the other tech units. This patch is gonna force some changes in protoss
The problem is that if toss goes air both terran and zerg can counter it with either ground or air whatever fits they mood the best, however if zerg og terran goes air your prety mutch forced to counter it with ground with the exception of mutas. And yes you can trade phoenixes with vikings but thats just trading not countering but nonetheless effective to help keep vikings off your colossi
This is true.
However, there is sort of an opposite equivalent, which is the Colossus.
If a Toss player builds Colossi, Terran and Zerg *have* to go air, as once there are more than 5 Colossi with the range upgrade, essentially everything on the ground is instantly melted, especially if the Toss also builds Chargelots to deal with Terran mech.
Terran and Zerg don't have a ground equivalent that forces Toss to go air. Every ground unit in their arsenal can be beaten by the right Toss ground unit.
Simply put, Toss are more dominant on the ground, but lose out by being relatively weak in the air.
Which is kinda funny, because in BW it was the opposite--Toss were the kings of the skies.
This is not true due to the existence of Siege Tanks which hard counter those Colossi and anything they are walking over.
Maybe true for Zerg though. Used to be Ultralisks but those are not quite so good anymore because Archons and Immortals hard counter them.
This is not true due to the existence of Siege Tanks which hard counter those Colossi and anything they are walking over.
Maybe true for Zerg though. Used to be Ultralisks but those are not quite so good anymore because Archons and Immortals hard counter them.
Nobody gets siege tanks vs. Toss though, because Chargelots eat them for breakfast. Nobody is going to have an army of just Colossi with nothing else supporting them, and Chargelots are one of the more common tank units people like to pair with Colossi.
Phoenix can beat BC with micro. Even with their tiny amount of damage, they are so much faster, and have shields, andddd attack while moving. So if I attack some bc's with phoenix, I just have to micro the phoenix that are being attacked away and let their shields recover, that would leave me at an advantage unless he could repair his bc's all the way every time my phoenix left.
On October 16 2010 03:16 Jayrod wrote: If you are talking BCs you should also be talking carriers. If you are against a BC marauder/bio army you should have at least a couple of carriers to engage that fight. Those carriers will will keep your stalkers alive. If they dont keep the stalkers alive, then the carriers themselves will be killing the bio off. Good protoss air mixes, believe it or not, should beat good terran air mixes, but the carrier is the key.
I honestly think with this new patch protoss players need to really work on getting to carrier tech/collo tech/ or templar tech safely somehow, beginning their approach on two bases and adding a layer of tech with your 3rd, either of the other two branches you didnt go in the first place... I think really what its going to boil down to to become succesful with protoss is realizing every one of your units is important and you cant just throw them away and warp in new ones anymore. You really need to hang on to that early game stuff and micro exceptionally because I dont think its going to cut it anymore to throw all your gas at templar, you'll have to make like only 4 or 5 and micro them well and spread them out etc etc. Then your other gas needs to go into getting enough of the other tech units. This patch is gonna force some changes in protoss
Again BC Yamato throws stuff like this completely off. BC always beat Carrier even when microed. If you are also getting Templar then you are getting too many different types of units and will die to purer armies. You would probably be better off with just gateway units and forget about air.
Mainly I think the Reparion strat got a pretty good buff with this patch.
It is hard to keep stuff alive when your enemies can slow you and are faster than you. In particular Zealots which are pretty much made to be throw away units.
On October 16 2010 02:32 Reason.SC2 wrote: The fact that void rays for cost are about equal with battlecruisers is pretty sick considering that VRs are supposed to be the 'counter'
The correct counter against BCs in PvT is proper play. There's no way a T should be able to get more than one or two BCs unless Toss lets them uberturtle and doesn't punish them for investing heavily in air. In that case toss can easily pump enough stalkers off 3 bases worth of gateways to deal with BCs should they become a problem, esp. if HT are around. I can't imagine any realistic scenario pre- or post-patch between skilled players where terran goes BC and protoss thinks -- dang I've gotta get VRs right now!
I only see this being an issue in 2v2s or lower level play where players let one another mass up off of two bases (in either case a VR nerf is probably a good thing).
On October 16 2010 04:40 Kazang wrote: Voidrays are sooo much better against vikings now. The vikings can still kite of course but in a straight fight the vikings die very, very easily now.
The "straight fight" doesn't matter cause the vikings won't actually get hit. That's like saying zealots are the best unit in the game when nothing moves . . .
On October 16 2010 04:40 Kazang wrote: Voidrays are sooo much better against vikings now. The vikings can still kite of course but in a straight fight the vikings die very, very easily now.
The "straight fight" doesn't matter cause the vikings won't actually get hit. That's like saying zealots are the best unit in the game when nothing moves . . .
Voidrays are sooo much better against vikings now. The vikings can still kite of course but in a straight fight the vikings die very, very easily now.
The "straight fight" doesn't matter cause the vikings won't actually get hit.
This isn't true at all though. There can be tremendous value in forcing units to retreat in order to kite, even if you don't kill them directly.
Say, for example, a Terran has a bioball, and the Toss has some Colossi and some Chargelots. To counter the Colossus, the Terran gets Vikings. he advances with them parked over the bioball. Since both Vikings and Colossi with Thermal Lance have range 9, this means that as soon as the Colossus gets in range of the Bioball, the Vikings start hammering it.
Now, say the Toss has a few Voids in the mix. He advances on the Vikings, who start kiting away. The Voids can't hit them, but it does force the Vikings to back up while they attack.
Suddenly, the bioball is left without Viking support. The Colossus is now free to melt them without getting in range of the Vikings.
Obviously, this is simplified for the sake of an example, but the principle is absolutely true that there is value in forcing units to kite, because it can mess with their positioning.
The "straight fight" doesn't matter cause the vikings won't actually get hit.
This isn't true at all though. There can be tremendous value in forcing units to retreat in order to kite, even if you don't kill them directly.
Say, for example, a Terran has a bioball, and the Toss has some Colossi and some Chargelots. To counter the Colossus, the Terran gets Vikings. he advances with them parked over the bioball. Since both Vikings and Colossi with Thermal Lance have range 9, this means that as soon as the Colossus gets in range of the Bioball, the Vikings start hammering it.
Now, say the Toss has a few Voids in the mix. He advances on the Vikings, who start kiting away. The Voids can't hit them, but it does force the Vikings to back up while they attack.
Suddenly, the bioball is left without Viking support. The Colossus is now free to melt them without getting in range of the Vikings.
Obviously, this is simplified for the sake of an example, but the principle is absolutely true that there is value in forcing units to kite, because it can mess with their positioning.
The problem is that the resources for those Voids are coming from somewhere - you are either diminishing your Colossus count or your ground army. If the ground army is cut too much then the bio army can stim and rush them. Or the Terran just starts making more vikings, because they're good against all your stuff. If you cut too many colossus, you might not have enough splash.
All of this only seems meaningful in silver level 4v4s. Nobody in a high level 1v1 is going to allow a T to build more than a couple of BCs, and nobody is going to allow a P to amass a large number of void rays. The bulk the P army needs to be blink stalkers with templar to feedback/storm supporting bio army. A couple void rays are a nice way to augment the damage of an army, they are not an army themselves. You could just as well replace the void ray(s) with carrier(s), then you have an army similar to a T BC-bio mix: a heavy hitting long ranged unit that needs its supporting army just to keep it alive as it wrecks base structures.
On October 15 2010 23:58 Chronopolis wrote: I think the OP fails to recognize that bc armies generall have a marauder or marine accompenment, with the purpose of putting a sizable dent in the stalker army, while deterring blinks under the bcs. Think 5 battle cruisers with 15 marauaders, or 30 marines, and things start to get ugly. It's like banshee marine, while the stalkers may be cost effecient against banshees, and AoE options are avaiblible for marines, when combined they mow over stalkers and are a bit more durable against storm.
EDIT: People say carriers will get popular, i think this is true only in pvp, where the main air to air counter has been nerfed. I think the pvp match up will have a lot of fient fast gas 4 gates into carriers, while the other player must call this bluff, and mass expo gateway units. Carrier Gateway against Gateway seems pretty cool to me. I want to see the opponent abuse the lack of mobility.
In PvT, you don't really go for carriers, just cause if you do, you invested a major amount of money away from something that can kill bc's (In an even game, the threat of a transition is always out there in the lategame). Vikings battlecruiser loses the corrupter effect (that is, you make too many a-a units and get rolled by the 20 warpgate ground army), and the BC's are pretty good at tanking and taking out interceptors.
PvZ, corrupters are just too fast, I doubt there is a carrier transition that does not leave a moderate sized hole for the zerg to drone up. Carrier templar stalker is probably the way to go, storming hydras and corrupters.
I completely agree with what you are saying here and have started working on my early stargate/4gate feint into stargate strats already. I've found that if the opponent doesn't see it coming and if the first push is successful it is completely dominant and can end the game <15mins. If the first push breaks even, you can keep their natural expo blocked off (PvT/P) and lay your own down giving you the opportunity for a macro win. I typically build a small mixed ground force then move out when I have 2 or 3 voids, with my first void being produced around the 6:15min mark and attacking around 7:00min. With air support, you can build a pylon near an edge of their base and warp in units behind their defences, head straight to the mins and GGKTHNXBYE. The early Stargate also transitions well into Pheonix harass (better with the bug fix), Carriers, or Mothership.
The VR stage 1 bonus damage to armour makes them an effective early game counter to Marine Marauder, Roaches and Zealots. Especially effective if the units have no AA capability.
Counters that I find are really effective against my strats are: Zerg: Mass Hydras Terran: Marine Medivac Protoss: Cannon early expand (not tested yet), 4Gate (unless you can sentry the army outside your choke) & Mass Stalker (not tested yet).
My mix of stalkers and voids can easily deal with Corruptors, Mutas and Vikings if you put the pressure on early.
I believe that the strategy only works well on maps with small chokes, like Xel Naga Caverns etc, so that you can block enemy scouts from seeing your early Stargate.
Although VRs have been seriously nerf'd for late game play, I think that they were OP in midgame anyway. It didn't really make any sense to have a midgame unit become the most powerful air unit through the late game. The best part about the entire VR "nerf" is the introduction of more dynamic early game strats from P (now 3 gate robo colossus isn't the only good early tech option). It also forces other races to use unit builds that aren't leading tournaments currently. I mean, when do you see Hydras these days? I think this patch has forced Protoss to become much more resourceful, aggressive and rely less on mid-late game 12 gate macro warp-ins.
We will definitely be seeing more carriers now. CARRIER HAS ARRIVED! Maybe even mothership as well. If you know that your enemy has no early detection because they are busy building units to hold off your push and expand, how exactly would they be able to deal with cloaked VRs, stalkers and Vortex?
I'm actually really excited about this patch will play out, if you can't tell already.
On October 16 2010 06:15 Bear4188 wrote: All of this only seems meaningful in silver level 4v4s. Nobody in a high level 1v1 is going to allow a T to build more than a couple of BCs, and nobody is going to allow a P to amass a large number of void rays.
Watch carefully. A VR example could be found as easily but I won't bother.
You're making it appear as if in 1on1 both players were always in a position to determine what their opponent is "allowed" to do.
It should be mentioned that BCs are incredibly slow. You're looking at the situation wrong if you're just thinking about how units do head to head against BCs. The Void Rays can pre charge then run into battle, then the BCs are dead. If things look bad the VRs can run away, but the BCs can't.
On October 16 2010 07:35 TurtlePerson2 wrote: It should be mentioned that BCs are incredibly slow. You're looking at the situation wrong if you're just thinking about how units do head to head against BCs. The Void Rays can pre charge then run into battle, then the BCs are dead. If things look bad the VRs can run away, but the BCs can't.
Also, Yamato ready BCs are asking for feedback.
In therory it would always be great to have a HT ready when a banshee shows up for they could feedback them but in actual gameplay this is hardly anytime the case except you did manage to scout for it somehow and have the tech and the ht has the energy and ... in most cases the banshee will be microed into your base to have full effect of surprise and you are far from hts ...
please do not argue like everything would be fine and lining up options which are all situational depending on factors and stuff.
the fact stands protoss is actually behind when it comes to the ability of securing airspace against the other races, period. so either toss manged to kill the opponent on the ground in the mid game or chances are the game will end in a loss for the toss the moment the opponent manages to go heavy air.
possible counter measures: Stalker - well there is a supply cap and you need way more ressources than the other guy, so no good idea. don't argue with blink and micro for the terran is also able to micro the BC fire killing your stalkers faster than you might realize.. Phoenix - Nope scratches don't kill. Carrier - hardly, requires micro and micro also is the carriers biggest enemy - stimmed marines... Voidray - is kinda not cost efficient anymore so no "counter", means there are no countering units left. oh sorry sentries anyone ? stalker + sentry right, again micro and the GS is gone and the sentry is not able to blink in with the stalkers... -> not viable because of to many influencing factors!
so we are back to unit x needs some sort of counter and there is no viable unit y left, that is the actual case. voidrays still could do the job in theory but the imbalance is given when one race has "hard counters" and the other has not.
so either make all of SC2 throwing plush giraffes at each other or blizzard should maybe come up with a new air concept for toss one that perhaps is less gimmicky less micro intense for toss already is forced to warpin units away from battles.
my 2 cent ... TY op for the testing results..
edit ----- carriers carriers with an upgrade are an option they are able to outrun the BC's and stilldeal damage to them. but again why does toss always need to get upgrade to get viable units i mean that legspeed thing transfering the victim into the killer of these pesty marauders... why can't toss just have good units like anyone else?
Did some tests myself with Unit Tester and found out that 0-0-0 32Void Rays vs 0-0 20Cruiser is quite balanced and most of the time 4 voidrays survive damaged....
BUT fighting with 1-0-0 Void Rays against 1-0-0 Cruiser, the Cruiser win the battle pretty good, 6 or more survive...
By looking up the damage of the VoidRay Upgrade a 0-0-0 Void Ray does 8/8 and a 1-0-0 Void Ray does 9/9 dmg. Pre Patch 1.1.2 An attack upgrad added 4 dmg for the Void ray, now it's only 2 dmg..
Another interesting thing is when i fought with 0-1-0 Voidrays against 1-0-0 Cruiser only 4 survived, overall armor seemed to be the better option, bad thing is that in endgame toss will also need Shield what looks for me like a problem for the costeffectiveness.
Wouldn't the T player get atleast one raven? drop two drones +scan +Y+mouseclick 6 times on different targets? that'd turn it into 14 vs 6 in 2 seconds
void rays are kind of a dumb, poorly executed unit right now. They are supposed to be good at taking down high HP units, but poor against a large number of low HP units. But with their range and now damage nerfs, they are shitty against even the things they are supposed to be best against--carriers and BCs. Meanwhile, with their ability to pre-charge on a proxy pylon and switch targets instantly at no penalty, they can actually be devastatingly powerful against large numbers of low-hp units provided they reach a critical mass. This is completely counter-intuitive and at cross-purposes with their original intention.
The best idea I've heard so far is buff void rays in every way BUT make them lose charge when switching targets. Hell, you could even have like a 1 second cooldown where they can't do anything after switching targets. Make them cost effective at taking down BCs and carriers and buildings and so on, but with the penalty for switching targets they should be shit against marines and stalkers and hydras and vikings and phoenixes and so on.
On October 16 2010 06:18 Rejuvenation wrote: After the ground damage nerf on BC i always been using stalkers to counter BC's. They're beasts!
Yeah, stalker/sentry/colossus takes down BC/MMM easily enough. A few colossi wipe out the mmm lickity split, guardian shield wipes out 1/3rd of the BC and marine damage, and stalkers easily mop up. Also having both colossus and sentries presents terran with a real catch-22 about which to focus down first because the colossus will wipe out his infantry instantly if he doesn't take them out with yamato, but at the same time he's doing practically no damage for as long as those sentries are alive.
Seems to me that BCs are unbeatable based on all the whining in this thread about their OPness. If you targetfire BCs with fully charged void rays + some stalkers, they go down pretty easily. Mix in some feedbacks and your fine.
I think the main problem of Void Rays is the charge mechanic itself. It adds a certain "random" effect to the game Blizzard tried to eliminate. Why random? Because the outcome of battles can vary, depending on certain factors like rocks near the bases or being able to keep the charge up.
The question is: What role should the Void Ray have? Flying siege unit of doom, overlapping with Carriers, or a counter to big units like BCs?
If it's the latter one, why not giving them low basic damage, abandon the charge mechanic and give them an attack bonus against units, based on their HP? That would change their role to what is was to supposed to: Countering big units while sucking against small units.
Basic example with random numbers to showcase the idea (not saying these numbers would be balanced):
0,6 attack speed, 3 damage, 4% attack bonus based on unit HP:
Against a BC: (3 + (550*0,04)) /0,6 = 41,7 DPS
Against a Marine with health upgrade: (3 + (55*0,04)) /0,6 = 8,7 DPS
Good against big units, bad against small units. No random involved.
storm + feedback + blink stalker rapes a bc army more than anything else :p also u can mix in some voidrays in that, but ofcourse they must be charged before the battle and u have to feedback the bcs before the voidrays come in else yamato gg them
On October 17 2010 22:49 devolore wrote: Out of curiousity, how do Carriers or even Phoenixes fare against BC's?
carriers is really good vs bc if fthey dont have yamato, then u can outrange the bcs and back while attacking. if they got yamato and a splash of rines or vikings in the mix its not same story tho
i think when u make these tests u should try unit combos more rather than 1 unit vs 1 unit. its like trying to find a cost efficient unit vs marauder with only 1 unit type, its pretty damn hard. doesnt mean the marauders r imba, just means u need to mix it up to counter them well. sc2 is not the only game like this. if u pare up pure dragoons vs tanks or pure zealots vs tanks, then the tanks lose cause they have no meatshield, but as soon as u get in the vultures its much better
I think the OP fails to recognize that bc armies generall have a marauder or marine accompenment, with the purpose of putting a sizable dent in the stalker army, while deterring blinks under the bcs. Think 5 battle cruisers with 15 marauaders, or 30 marines, and things start to get ugly
Of course the Protoss army should be going HT which counters all 3 of these units to a large degree and nullifies yamato which is the big issue with Protoss vs BC.
On the other hand the Terran can build ghosts to make the HT+VR a ton weaker.
Kind of hard to just describe the matchup with numbers..
carrier are slightly slower then bcs, but bcs need to stop to attack, so you could outrun bcs and only get a few hits, though 2 yamatos = 1 carrier less. plus the bc could only focus on the interceptors, that as mentioned before do not much damage against bcs. With their high damage against air battlecruiser take air superiority pretty easy, their only enemy is the viking, since yamato can't kill enough of them. But with the lowered ground attack, ground units can take them out pretty easily. But last time i checked they could take out the immortals fast, so the thors/tanks have no problems against the stalkers xD. I liked voidrays pretty much before patch, played them often in all matchups, with speed upgrade they were almost as fast as the phenix, so if you saw the enemy coming charge up on a warp gate and you won, with out many losses, since almost nothing can outrun speedrays. In attack you could use an ungarded enemy nexus to charge up. Also mothership is buildable, and you can warp your voidrays charged up whereever you wanted, or use the trap ability of the mothership, and wait with your charged voidrays till the enemy popped out again. Though it is fun to watch them at the beginning, i lost some games because there could have been a hidden stargate *paranoid mode*. I think they are more balanced to use now, with the speed nerf, but i think the damage is a bit to less.
Oh ps: don't forget the corrupters ability for more damage, against voidrays. The ability is pretty evil and a must use if you fight with corrupters against bcs.
Consider the following- to research Yamato cannon adds an additional cost to the Terran.
Also, feedback deals 200 damage to a full energy BC, I'd like to see what happens when you take that into account. I'd imagine with that 200 health decrease the void ray would prove very effective; need to test.
On October 17 2010 20:36 Dionyseus wrote: In the stalker vs BC scenarios, did you make full use of the yamato cannons?
No, didn't use them at all. I'll clarify that in the OP.
On October 17 2010 22:49 devolore wrote: Out of curiousity, how do Carriers or even Phoenixes fare against BC's?
See OP. I tested 8 phoenixes vs 3 BC, which is about equal resource value. After the phoenixes were dead, one of the BCs reported a slight itch. Don't try this at home.
On October 21 2010 04:23 YourMom wrote: You can EMP your own Battlecruisers and then Feedback is useless.
Then you've effectively feedbacked yourself. O.o. I thought the point of Feedback was to prevent Yamato. If you're not going to Yamato anyway, then Protoss is happy. The Feedback damage is not that great.
On October 21 2010 04:23 YourMom wrote: You can EMP your own Battlecruisers and then Feedback is useless.
Then you've effectively feedbacked yourself. O.o. I thought the point of Feedback was to prevent Yamato. If you're not going to Yamato anyway, then Protoss is happy. The Feedback damage is not that great.
Actually, due to the fact that almost no terran uses yamato the second they see a protoss unit, feedback was mainly used to damage the battlecruiser.
Emp doesnt do damage and takes away all energy, feedback does damage and takes away all energy. There is a large difference.
I don't get the reasoning that a Protoss unit mix beats BC. Why don't the BC get a mix as well? Ghost + BC is damn strong. 2 EMP + 1 Yamato insta kills a Carrier and 1 EMP + Yamato insta kills Colossi as well as substantially weakening anything around it. Ghost also counter the Templar and Sentry which are prime counters to the BC. EMP also severely weakens Stalkers so that BC easily clean them up when reduced to half hp. These units compliment each other beautifully. Early game SCV repair makes BC highly effective when rushed.
Also I have tested it before but BC will always beat Carriers if the BC has Yamato to use. The BC will kill the Interceptors faster than the Carrier can replace them so even if they stay back out of range they will soon lose their means of attack. It is the Ghost that especially rapes Carrier fleets horribly when combined with BC. As then it just requires 1 Yamato per Carrier to wipe out their whole fleet. 1 Ghost can fire several EMP to hit multiple Carriers even if they are kinda spread out.
- 1 VR kills one Corruptor and takes only shield damage - 1 VR gets killed by 2 Corruptors, with one of the Corruptors surviving on low health. - 6 VRs (1500/900) vs 10 Corruptors (1500/1000) is about an equal match; either 1 VR or 1 Corr. might survive.
Did u factor in corruption with that test? because the 20% dmg boosts helps quite a bit and its a free skill.
You need like..really well upgraded stalkers+blink+storm+feedback to beat BCs...
If you are skipping Templar and getting Void Rays/Stalkers only, expect to be destroyed by MMM. You need storm to deal with the infantry, help with the BCS (more than most people think), and feedback to prevent Yamoto and do damage.
Of course you have tons of Stalkers with upgrades to meat shield/add damage, and prevent escape with Blink.
If you don't think you need High Templar, just wait until you meet someone who knows how to use PDD with Battlecruisers. Ugh.
I don't know if this has been pointed out in the last 5 pages since I can't be bothered to go through them, but BCs will never be on their own. They will always have a bunch of SCVs repairing them. High health, high armor, and repairing makes BCs very hard to destroy, and that's what gives them their power.
Everytime someone brings in FEEDBACK!!!1, You do realize the terran can also bring in EMP, which not only counters your Feedback by outranging it, it also happens to wipe out all the shields and make terran own more? There's a reason why it is kept to a 1v1 unit composition.
So, basically what i got out of this is that void rays have turned into the scout: a pretty useless unit that will never be used. I also think that since carriers are never used, unless its another cheese, this limits the protoss to a ground army. This limitation may be what is holding back protosses as far as variability is concerned,
I did some further testing with the Void Ray, and more specifically, in the realm of Protoss vs. Zerg. I was doing some in depth thinking about the Void Ray as a unit. I thought about its inherent capabilities and properties. Then I used the Unit Tester to see the Void Ray's performance. I did my best to focus fire and kite, even turning game speed to slowest so I could maximize my micro ability. I thought you guys might be interested with my findings.
Void Rays vs. Brood Lords
1 Void Ray (cost: 250/150) vs. 1 Brood Lord (cost: 300/250): -> VR wins with 100 shields and 150 health.
2 Void Rays (cost: 500/300) vs. 1 Brood Lord (cost: 300/250): -> BLs dead, 2 VRs left, with a combined 200 shields and 300 health.
6 Void Rays (cost:1500/900) vs. 3 Brood Lords (cost: 900/750): -> Very close match, but the Void Rays eke out on top with 600 shields and 900 health.
I realize the unit tester is highly artificial, but I'm fairly sure that Void Rays could be a useful unit to use against only Brood Lords. Obviously further testing is going to be required until we can make such a powerful claim, but I hope this has shown people how to really think about how units function in this world, and more importantly, about how this clearly shows how op terran is.
Personally, I have found HT/blink stalker a more effective counter. With so many stalkers, it's harder for the Terran to focus yamato's before you can feedback. And while you are "only" doing max 200 damage for a feedback, even doing half that is a 100 damage dealer instantly. If you catch a BC with full energy, it will take only 3 micro'd volleys from a 10 stalker army to kill that BC (20 dmg to armored units, I'm not going into upgrades because its 1am)- which isn't unheard of having if you're already late enough for BC's.
Now, while some people have mentioned that there will be "other units" - that's not the intention of this post. The question was can void rays still counter battle cruisers post 1.1.2- I do not think they can, and the numbers seem to show that they can't, but I believe that feedback/blink stalkers can be an effective counter
On October 16 2010 02:32 Reason.SC2 wrote: The fact that void rays for cost are about equal with battlecruisers is pretty sick considering that VRs are supposed to be the 'counter'
The correct counter against BCs in PvT is proper play. There's no way a T should be able to get more than one or two BCs unless Toss lets them uberturtle and doesn't punish them for investing heavily in air. In that case toss can easily pump enough stalkers off 3 bases worth of gateways to deal with BCs should they become a problem, esp. if HT are around. I can't imagine any realistic scenario pre- or post-patch between skilled players where terran goes BC and protoss thinks -- dang I've gotta get VRs right now!
I only see this being an issue in 2v2s or lower level play where players let one another mass up off of two bases (in either case a VR nerf is probably a good thing).
this 100%. To make a decent amount of BCers the T needs to turtle VERY HARD on 2 bases, and if the P is half decent he can just take map control and when the T can leave his base the P will be in 4 base vs 2 base and he ll win with anything, so the cost-effective thing doesnt matter at all, just make units that can hit air. When is cross position in maps like Meta or LT maybe the T can take a lot of bases and put 5-6 starports without suffering too much, but still i dont think BCs would be the better choice. so IMO this thread doesnt have any sense, BCs sucks in real games, mb it can be a good all in to make a fast battle cruiser and bring a lot of scvs vs protoss, but with the last patch that reduced their damage its weaker...
If a bc starts channeling it's yamato, let's say with full 200 energy, will he lose the cost before or after the yamato actually fires? If it's after it fires, will feedback completely cancel out the yamato?
can you dodge yamato cannon with blink? i know it's not likely because you can't tell which stalkers are being targeted, and you won't have the precision to select a single stalker in a group of say, 10 and then blink it in time, but from what I've seen in Warcraft 3, Blinking allows you to dodge many spells that have to travel to hit you, and even some normal attacks, sort of like Brood War dropship + tank micro against dragoons. I believe Cloaking and Burrowing also allow you to dodge some missile attacks / spells.
On November 19 2010 15:28 cannavaro wrote: If a bc starts channeling it's yamato, let's say with full 200 energy, will he lose the cost before or after the yamato actually fires? If it's after it fires, will feedback completely cancel out the yamato?
I believe casting Feedback during channeling will cancel the Yamato completely before it can fire.
Why this matters I do not know. Battlecruisers are godawful in their current state, they get countered by half the units in the game, and can be kited/chased down due to their horrible movement speed.
Well normally i wouldn't go for bcs in a pvt, because of hts, not because of feedback because of storms xD. Anyway if i would go for em, i would have some siege tanks below them and ghosts a little bit behind against blink stalkers. Sounds like alot of gas ^^. So i guess alot of marines would also stick arround ^^. If the terran plays well you won't get any feedbacks on the bcs and he won't be stopped by voidrays, if he playes bad you will get some feedbacks down and storm down the marines while your voidrays destroy the bcs. If its bcs only i would use blink stalkers and have a sentry with em, since if the terran doesn't snipe the sentrys it will hurt his damage output.
Atm i use battlecruiser in really late game zvt or tvt. when it goes for 200 supply battles in tvt, if you have the air dominance with 3/3 there is nothing you can do against battlecruisers except of mass turrets. (well tanks outrun battlecruiser, so you still need some kind of fast ground forces) But once everything is mined out you can take your buildings with you xD and use mules for repair xD (yeah had some long tvts). In zvt, if you manage to go for vikings and air upgrades without loosing to mutas early on. The battlecruiser is really evil against mutas while the vikings can protect them against corrupters. A few ravens would make any bigger fights look pretty evil. And hydras ... well try hydras against landed vikings xD. Still battlecruiser being the slowest unit ingame (carriers are faster xD), needing alot of support , you can simply outrun them. (and the zerg will simply outmacro you if you try to go for bcs fast)
Just played toss before the patch so i can't say much about those, otherwise i used them in pvp, since everyone went for colossi, its an easy win, since when he moves out you kill his production and return home before his armys arrives. (you have to precharge your voidrays before battle, otherwise they will never charge up ^^). Used them against zerg as well if my phoenix did survive and he trys to prevent the harassment by going for spore crawlers. Both things shouldn't work that well since of the speed upgrade nerf. Though i found out even before the patch that immortals just do better, then voidrays and phoenix are more then enough for harass.
PS: yamato is like death coil, it follows you anywhere xD. saw a mothership recall once and the yamato flew right to the other side of the map. (cast was done though after the warp finished completly i think.) But i would say blink doesn't help there.
On November 19 2010 15:28 cannavaro wrote: If a bc starts channeling it's yamato, let's say with full 200 energy, will he lose the cost before or after the yamato actually fires? If it's after it fires, will feedback completely cancel out the yamato?
Yes feedback will cause the yammato cannon to not actually fire. VRs + HT to feedback are the best/most economical counter to BCs. Of course depending on how the match unfolds when you spot BCs in a real game situation that might not exactly be a feasible option.
Feedback is not very good against BC's for several reasons. First even though it outranges Yamato he will have units in front of the BC's to snipe your 80 health HT. Second by the time you get in range if your HT's are still alive he will probably have already fired the Yamatos. Third even if you do get a feedback off its not going to put a very big dent in a BC's health, the prevention of the Yamato is actually a bigger benefit than the damage done.
VRs with ht/stalker is the best counter. You want ground units anyways (since you no doubt have any number of gates), so stalkers are a must. HTs are needed to stop Yamatos from clearing out your voids, dealing burst damage, and clearing away any SCVs the Terran is bringing. VRs do damage.
The risk of T having ground units isn't that high because he won't be able to invest in that many, and probably isn't making medivacs - so storm blows through what he has and sets you up to engage the BCs.
There are plenty of Ts who fall back on this after a 2port banshee build, and turtle hardcore on 2/3 bases to get it. It is annoying.
I hope this hasn't been mention a lot already, but carriers have longer range and faster movement than BCs, enabling them to kill BCs very efficiently assuming there is no support.
Against Mutas, VRs still pretty much suck: - 1 VR kills 2 Mutas but is on low health.
What the hell, really? that's pretty damn good isn't it? VRs cost less gas and less supply than 2 mutas. Sure Phoenix are cheaper and can kill 2 mutas (only 2v1, not 2:1 ratio), but they can't really attack ground and they are good only vs unarmored.
On October 16 2010 00:12 Zihn wrote: The end all be all answer to all toss air vs BC is Yamamoto cannon, it totaly flips all cost questions greatly into the BC's favor with the exception of the phoenix.. but that thing might as well be throwing peanuts at the BC with it's mighty 2x2 dmg
what toss needs is for blizz to release the Scout for multiplayer as it would be that instant "high" dmg anti armoured flyer that toss needs to change PvP away from colossi power strugle along with providing an actual counter to viking, BC and coruptors
my 2 cents anyhow
Bring in the Scout and remove the VR? Yay! I'm on board with that. BCs aren't exactly viable anyhow in TvP and it removes the dreaded high AtG DPS of the VR.
The tests need to include a VR pre-charged case. Good protosses will avoid engaging except with void rays that are already charged if they can help it.
Also a comparison of +1 armor vs. +1 weapons on bc vs. carrier would be insightful as well as talking about how well carriers can kite bcs (if at all... I don't recall)
EPT
Thanks. Would love too see numbers on this tho.
