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The testing with the VR's is very off. BC's cost much more then VR's, and more supply. So then why are you testing them 1 to 1? 2:1 is much closer to even, in which case I believe the VR would destroy the BC's.
In real situations there are also a huge number of things to consider. In VR vs BC, for example, is the VR charged or not? unless you are in a defensive position with proper scouting, it's unlikely that the VR will be charged. prepatch, that ensures that the VR's start at a huge disadvantage. However, because the uncharged damage is higher, it can only be an advantage.
Then there is the struggle the terran has in getting BC's out. The BC's have a huge build time, and require starports with tech labs, which most terran don't use frequently. The protoss can easily outproduce VR's, if the toss scouts it appropriately.
I'd like more information about these variables, for example uncharged VR's versus BC's, and how many it takes to bring one down. Also charged VR's, and how many more are needed to match the dps of pre-patch VR's. Also, the addition of Yamato Cannon should also be factored.
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The fact that void rays for cost are about equal with battlecruisers is pretty sick considering that VRs are supposed to be the 'counter'
The test here doesn't take into account some very obvious things:
1. In small fleets, there will likely be SCVs repairing the BC(s)
2. If you are trying to mass void rays, theres a good chance your opponent will mix in some vikings
3. Yamato cannon will likely be researched in the case of large battles... this effectively doubles the amount of VRs you need and makes them no longer cost effective.
4. There is no Protoss single unit that is cost-effective against a BC (except for high templar, but you can't kill them with feedback alone). Stalkers and VRs in some situations (optimal terrain, no yamato/scv repair) can break even, but thats as good as it gets ( !!!???). On the other side of the coin, void rays are not cost effective against T1 marines.
5. If a BC fleet is supplemented with some marauders, stalkers become useless.
This all kind of pisses me off as a protoss player. Every single unit in the game has a 'counter' that is pretty cost effective (except perhaps the archon in ZvP, but they aren't massable air units due to their large size, low speed and range).
Currently it seems that if T can get BCs out on even footing with Protoss, the game is over barring some major tactical/micro error by T.
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you can still feedback battlecruisers
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Are the results still the same after upgrades, in particular, 3/3 ups?
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161 Posts
with good yamato use, the BCs come out on top against equal cost voids.
ups help the voids more than BCs i believe, but with good yamato use, BCs are still king.
edit: stalkers beat the BCs cost for cost, as long as you focus fire.
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If you are talking BCs you should also be talking carriers. If you are against a BC marauder/bio army you should have at least a couple of carriers to engage that fight. Those carriers will will keep your stalkers alive. If they dont keep the stalkers alive, then the carriers themselves will be killing the bio off. Good protoss air mixes, believe it or not, should beat good terran air mixes, but the carrier is the key.
I honestly think with this new patch protoss players need to really work on getting to carrier tech/collo tech/ or templar tech safely somehow, beginning their approach on two bases and adding a layer of tech with your 3rd, either of the other two branches you didnt go in the first place... I think really what its going to boil down to to become succesful with protoss is realizing every one of your units is important and you cant just throw them away and warp in new ones anymore. You really need to hang on to that early game stuff and micro exceptionally because I dont think its going to cut it anymore to throw all your gas at templar, you'll have to make like only 4 or 5 and micro them well and spread them out etc etc. Then your other gas needs to go into getting enough of the other tech units. This patch is gonna force some changes in protoss
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On October 16 2010 00:35 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +The problem is that if toss goes air both terran and zerg can counter it with either ground or air whatever fits they mood the best, however if zerg og terran goes air your prety mutch forced to counter it with ground with the exception of mutas. And yes you can trade phoenixes with vikings but thats just trading not countering but nonetheless effective to help keep vikings off your colossi This is true. However, there is sort of an opposite equivalent, which is the Colossus. If a Toss player builds Colossi, Terran and Zerg *have* to go air, as once there are more than 5 Colossi with the range upgrade, essentially everything on the ground is instantly melted, especially if the Toss also builds Chargelots to deal with Terran mech. Terran and Zerg don't have a ground equivalent that forces Toss to go air. Every ground unit in their arsenal can be beaten by the right Toss ground unit. Simply put, Toss are more dominant on the ground, but lose out by being relatively weak in the air. Which is kinda funny, because in BW it was the opposite--Toss were the kings of the skies.
This is not true due to the existence of Siege Tanks which hard counter those Colossi and anything they are walking over.
Maybe true for Zerg though. Used to be Ultralisks but those are not quite so good anymore because Archons and Immortals hard counter them.
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This is not true due to the existence of Siege Tanks which hard counter those Colossi and anything they are walking over.
Maybe true for Zerg though. Used to be Ultralisks but those are not quite so good anymore because Archons and Immortals hard counter them.
Nobody gets siege tanks vs. Toss though, because Chargelots eat them for breakfast. Nobody is going to have an army of just Colossi with nothing else supporting them, and Chargelots are one of the more common tank units people like to pair with Colossi.
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Phoenix can beat BC with micro. Even with their tiny amount of damage, they are so much faster, and have shields, andddd attack while moving. So if I attack some bc's with phoenix, I just have to micro the phoenix that are being attacked away and let their shields recover, that would leave me at an advantage unless he could repair his bc's all the way every time my phoenix left.
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On October 16 2010 03:16 Jayrod wrote:
If you are talking BCs you should also be talking carriers. If you are against a BC marauder/bio army you should have at least a couple of carriers to engage that fight. Those carriers will will keep your stalkers alive. If they dont keep the stalkers alive, then the carriers themselves will be killing the bio off. Good protoss air mixes, believe it or not, should beat good terran air mixes, but the carrier is the key.
I honestly think with this new patch protoss players need to really work on getting to carrier tech/collo tech/ or templar tech safely somehow, beginning their approach on two bases and adding a layer of tech with your 3rd, either of the other two branches you didnt go in the first place... I think really what its going to boil down to to become succesful with protoss is realizing every one of your units is important and you cant just throw them away and warp in new ones anymore. You really need to hang on to that early game stuff and micro exceptionally because I dont think its going to cut it anymore to throw all your gas at templar, you'll have to make like only 4 or 5 and micro them well and spread them out etc etc. Then your other gas needs to go into getting enough of the other tech units. This patch is gonna force some changes in protoss
Again BC Yamato throws stuff like this completely off. BC always beat Carrier even when microed. If you are also getting Templar then you are getting too many different types of units and will die to purer armies. You would probably be better off with just gateway units and forget about air.
Mainly I think the Reparion strat got a pretty good buff with this patch.
It is hard to keep stuff alive when your enemies can slow you and are faster than you. In particular Zealots which are pretty much made to be throw away units.
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On October 16 2010 02:32 Reason.SC2 wrote:
The fact that void rays for cost are about equal with battlecruisers is pretty sick considering that VRs are supposed to be the 'counter'
The correct counter against BCs in PvT is proper play. There's no way a T should be able to get more than one or two BCs unless Toss lets them uberturtle and doesn't punish them for investing heavily in air. In that case toss can easily pump enough stalkers off 3 bases worth of gateways to deal with BCs should they become a problem, esp. if HT are around. I can't imagine any realistic scenario pre- or post-patch between skilled players where terran goes BC and protoss thinks -- dang I've gotta get VRs right now!
I only see this being an issue in 2v2s or lower level play where players let one another mass up off of two bases (in either case a VR nerf is probably a good thing).
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Test the Void Ray against other armored units like Stalkers, Vikings and Carriers.
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Voidrays are sooo much better against vikings now. The vikings can still kite of course but in a straight fight the vikings die very, very easily now.
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How do voids fair against vikings now? Their Phase I damage vs Armored is pretty significant. I'd be curious about vs stalkers too.
EDIT: lol, post above me.  Thanks. Would love too see numbers on this tho.
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On October 16 2010 04:40 Kazang wrote:
Voidrays are sooo much better against vikings now. The vikings can still kite of course but in a straight fight the vikings die very, very easily now.
The "straight fight" doesn't matter cause the vikings won't actually get hit. That's like saying zealots are the best unit in the game when nothing moves . . .
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carriers >> bcs in an even pop fight
although carriers are 100 (+100 [interceptors])/100 more so u'd hope so
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On October 16 2010 05:14 Darkstar_X wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 04:40 Kazang wrote:
Voidrays are sooo much better against vikings now. The vikings can still kite of course but in a straight fight the vikings die very, very easily now. The "straight fight" doesn't matter cause the vikings won't actually get hit. That's like saying zealots are the best unit in the game when nothing moves . . .
Voidrays are sooo much better against vikings now. The vikings can still kite of course but in a straight fight the vikings die very, very easily now.
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The "straight fight" doesn't matter cause the vikings won't actually get hit.
This isn't true at all though. There can be tremendous value in forcing units to retreat in order to kite, even if you don't kill them directly.
Say, for example, a Terran has a bioball, and the Toss has some Colossi and some Chargelots. To counter the Colossus, the Terran gets Vikings. he advances with them parked over the bioball. Since both Vikings and Colossi with Thermal Lance have range 9, this means that as soon as the Colossus gets in range of the Bioball, the Vikings start hammering it.
Now, say the Toss has a few Voids in the mix. He advances on the Vikings, who start kiting away. The Voids can't hit them, but it does force the Vikings to back up while they attack.
Suddenly, the bioball is left without Viking support. The Colossus is now free to melt them without getting in range of the Vikings.
Obviously, this is simplified for the sake of an example, but the principle is absolutely true that there is value in forcing units to kite, because it can mess with their positioning.
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On October 16 2010 05:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +The "straight fight" doesn't matter cause the vikings won't actually get hit. This isn't true at all though. There can be tremendous value in forcing units to retreat in order to kite, even if you don't kill them directly. Say, for example, a Terran has a bioball, and the Toss has some Colossi and some Chargelots. To counter the Colossus, the Terran gets Vikings. he advances with them parked over the bioball. Since both Vikings and Colossi with Thermal Lance have range 9, this means that as soon as the Colossus gets in range of the Bioball, the Vikings start hammering it. Now, say the Toss has a few Voids in the mix. He advances on the Vikings, who start kiting away. The Voids can't hit them, but it does force the Vikings to back up while they attack. Suddenly, the bioball is left without Viking support. The Colossus is now free to melt them without getting in range of the Vikings. Obviously, this is simplified for the sake of an example, but the principle is absolutely true that there is value in forcing units to kite, because it can mess with their positioning.
The problem is that the resources for those Voids are coming from somewhere - you are either diminishing your Colossus count or your ground army. If the ground army is cut too much then the bio army can stim and rush them. Or the Terran just starts making more vikings, because they're good against all your stuff. If you cut too many colossus, you might not have enough splash.
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All of this only seems meaningful in silver level 4v4s. Nobody in a high level 1v1 is going to allow a T to build more than a couple of BCs, and nobody is going to allow a P to amass a large number of void rays. The bulk the P army needs to be blink stalkers with templar to feedback/storm supporting bio army. A couple void rays are a nice way to augment the damage of an army, they are not an army themselves. You could just as well replace the void ray(s) with carrier(s), then you have an army similar to a T BC-bio mix: a heavy hitting long ranged unit that needs its supporting army just to keep it alive as it wrecks base structures.
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EPT
