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Zerg Build Order optimizer. - Page 46

Forum Index > SC2 General
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dmillz
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada270 Posts
November 05 2010 21:05 GMT
#901
Part of that is lots of pro-gamers probably haven't really bothered looking at it thinking it wouldn't be useful to them.
Hammurabio
Profile Joined August 2010
152 Posts
November 05 2010 21:24 GMT
#902
So what's the counter to the 7RR counter? It appears that 7RR wins mainly if it is not scouted or the opponent doesn't defend it correctly. If Terran scouts the warren, he's going to build his marauders and bunker for defense. He's geared up for roaches to arrive around 5:15. I'm wondering if I can not build the roaches, and switch to a different path that Terran is not prepared for. Obviously it would be nice if I could cancel the Warren after it was scouted.

Mutas: I can get 5 mutas at around 7minutes. I don't think this is good enough as the Lair/spire will be scouted.

Expo: I can put down an expo and pop some drones. This is much slower than a FE, but you've bought some time by sending Terran down the wrong path.

Banelings: If the Terran buildings are close, 10 banelings should be able to kill the depot, bunker, all marines inside and all marauders. Then follow in behind with 10 speedlings. Looks like I can have those ready to attack outside his base at 5:30.

I'm just brainstorming, no BOs at this time. I'm just happy to see 7RR allowing zerg to dictate the game flow instead of playing defensive all the time.

Noise
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia47 Posts
November 05 2010 21:37 GMT
#903
Definitely needs more likely/larger mutations. I asked it for a bunch of mutas and +1 air attack and it very quickly came up with building 2 spires. The problem is that it got so settled into doing it that it would never remove the second spire. Of course eventually it would but I think it needs more mutations to shake out the kinks in builds.
The Touch
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom667 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-05 22:15:02
November 05 2010 22:14 GMT
#904
I have to say this is a fantastic program, and thank you for all the hard work that has gone into it. The results it gives are eye-opening - the amount of time that can be shaved off standard openings is amazing. I'm realising that much can be done with better timing - things like delaying overlords for roach rushes, or overpooling to access the larva vomit earlier, will change my game. I for one really appreciate it, and look forward to the builds that the protoss and terran versions come up with as well.

Now forgive me if there's a way of doing this in the interface that I haven't figured out, or if this would be ridiculously complicated and time consuming to code (I have literally no clue about such things), but I keep finding myself wishing there was a feature where you could add a condition that building or unit X must be finished before building or unit Y starts.

For example, I may want to ensure that 2 or 4 lings are finished and on the field before my roach warren is started, so that I can deny scouting. The program would still look for the fastest way to achieve the goal (let's use the 7 roaches as an example) in the shortest possible time, but the extra constraint allows you to ensure the program is building some extra safety into the build. Or maybe you want to ensure that an extractor goes down before an early 3rd expansion, so that your opponent doesn't suspect anything out of the ordinary when he scouts.

Currently you can set an early waypoint with some lings, and then a later one with your desired unit composition, but the problem is that the program merely looks for the way to finish the total result in the shortest time, so you can end up with, say, a roach warren going down before the early lings are out, or setting the first waypoint so early that it forces the lings to come out first, but the final result is delayed because you 9 pooled to get those lings early enough for the first waypoint.

Thanks again for all the great work everybody has put into this. It really is tremendously useful. I think that adding a pre-exiting unit/building condition would allow for significantly more versatile and complex builds to come out of the program.
You Got The Touch
dmillz
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada270 Posts
November 06 2010 01:02 GMT
#905
I do agree with The Touch that being able to set some sort of conditions on the order would be nice, but people need to also remember not to get too caught up in "I want this first because its the best thing to do" because as this program is showing, lots of previously unthought of things are actually better then the pre-conceived best options.
Loxon
Profile Joined September 2010
United States20 Posts
November 06 2010 01:26 GMT
#906
Touch,

I believe that's really what waypoints are for, but you do need to be careful how you tweak them to hit your milestones. It really is designed to say "At WP1 I need to have 4 lings" and "At WP2 I need to have 7 roaches", but you have to be careful how aggressive you are with either (if you set WP1 too early, 6 pool might be the only way to go to get there, which will delay the warren more than you needed to.)

As the UI gets refined and the code tweaked (I know there has been discussion about setting an option to pull a drone to scout at a specific supply point), this will probably "feel" easier to do, but the tools are there to get it done.

Keep up the great work!
DImported
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia149 Posts
November 06 2010 04:07 GMT
#907
this is really a fantastic program. i'm so excited to see what it can come up with in the coming months.
Kinesis
Profile Joined October 2010
1 Post
November 06 2010 04:36 GMT
#908
it's an amazing program, i don't think i can really give enough recognition to Lomilar - a good friend of mine. keep it up, man.

as far as the Incinerate threads go - you've handled it well. props to taking it all in stride.
Lomilar
Profile Joined July 2010
United States130 Posts
November 06 2010 04:48 GMT
#909
I don't know if I have entirely taken it in stride. :-) v0018 will tell you why.

Huzzah!
Alternity
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States74 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-06 04:57:24
November 06 2010 04:56 GMT
#910
Any ETA on v0018?

:D

EDIT:

Nevermind, it is out!

-> http://code.google.com/p/evolutionchamber/downloads/detail?name=evolutionchamber-version-0018.jar&can=2&q=
Cambam
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States360 Posts
November 06 2010 05:05 GMT
#911
On November 06 2010 05:43 Lomilar wrote:
The tool still has not been proven at the pro-gamer level, unless I am missing some VODs. On that day, I will be impressed. Even more so if it works.

:-)

I think the pros should definitely check it out. If not for specific build orders, then at least just to learn general lessons from it. Here are some examples I've learned:
  • If you want to rush to any lair tech units or upgrades, an earlier pool means an earlier lair
  • Skipping things like metabolic boost or one or both queens can really have big effects early game
  • Waiting to build buildings for when you're supply blocked is a good idea
  • You can do so much on a small economy if you save up all the money while teching
  • Supply blocking yourself is good when you need to save up money for something expensive anyway
  • Hatches without queens produce a lot of larva if you make sure to constantly use the larva
Lastly, almost every build I've seen goes pool before hatch. In allin rush builds, fast tech builds and economic builds alike, they all seem to go pool before hatch. Granted, the program doesn't consider a lot of things that might give hatch first builds their advantage, such as 2 queens for quick creep tumors or quick hatchery creep spread at your natural for crawler placement. However, maybe pros should reconsider their assumptions. If a pool before hatch build really is more economical than hatch before pool, that would be awesome because it's also safer. Faster lings, crawlers and queens for cheese defense. I think it would be really cool if pros checked this program out and hatch first builds disappeared. That's the great thing about genetic algorithms is that they discover counter-intuitive things.
PR4Y
Profile Joined November 2010
United States260 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-06 06:15:41
November 06 2010 06:02 GMT
#912
Just thought I should add... I ran my Phenom II x4 @ 3.2GHz running for almost 24 hours, and found a BO that sacrifices a LOT of early economy for a MUCH earlier 7 Roach Rush (@4:32)


Note: It simulated 165,000,000+ games... and I'm quite confident this is as good as it gets for the 7RR. The simulator didn't make a single change to the BO in the last 9 hours of run-time, so I'm guessing this is as fast as it gets.


Here is the DETAILED format:

+ Show Spoiler +

@0:00 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6/10 BuildDrone
@0:13 M:51 G:0 L:2 S:7/10 BuildDrone
@0:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:17 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:24 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:8/10 BuildDrone
@0:30 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:34 M:54 G:0 L:2 S/10 BuildDrone
@0:41 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:45 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:51 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:00 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:05 M:204 G:0 L:3 S:10/10 BuildSpawningPool
@1:13 M:55 G:0 L:3 S/10 BuildDrone
@1:28 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:28 M:100 G:0 L:3 S:10/10 BuildOverlord
@1:30 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:32 M:27 G:0 L:2 S:10/10 BuildExtractor
@1:40 M:52 G:0 L:2 S/10 BuildDrone
@1:43 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:53 Spawned: Overlord+1
@1:53 M:85 G:0 L:2 S:10/18 BuildDrone
@1:57 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:58 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:02 Spawned: Extractor+1
@2:10 Spawned: Spawning Pool+1
@2:10 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:10 M:152 G:0 L:2 S:11/18 MineGas
@2:10 M:152 G:0 L:2 S:11/18 BuildRoachWarren
@2:10 M:2 G:0 L:2 S:10/18 MineGas
@2:12 Mining: +1 on gas
@2:12 Mining: +1 on gas
@2:13 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:19 M:52 G:11 L:3 S:10/18 BuildDrone
@2:28 M:52 G:23 L:2 S:11/18 BuildDrone
@2:28 M:2 G:23 L:1 S:12/18 MineGas
@2:30 Mining: +1 on gas
@2:34 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:36 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:45 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:47 M:103 G:59 L:2 S:12/18 BuildOverlord
@2:49 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:04 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:05 Spawned: Roach Warren+1
@3:05 M:118 G3 L:3 S:12/18 MineMineral
@3:05 M:118 G3 L:3 S:12/18 BuildRoach
@3:07 Mining: +1 on mineral
@3:10 M:77 G:75 L:2 S:14/18 BuildRoach
@3:12 Spawned: Overlord+1
@3:20 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:21 M:80 G:66 L:2 S:16/26 BuildRoach
@3:31 M:76 G:55 L:1 S:18/26 BuildRoach
@3:32 Spawned: Roach+1
@3:35 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:37 Spawned: Roach+1
@3:42 M:80 G:45 L:1 S:20/26 BuildRoach
@3:48 Spawned: Roach+1
@3:50 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:52 M:76 G:34 L:1 S:22/26 BuildRoach
@3:58 Spawned: Roach+1
@4:05 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:05 M3 G:27 L:1 S:24/26 BuildRoach
@4:09 Spawned: Roach+1
@4:19 Spawned: Roach+1
@4:20 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:32 Spawned: Roach+1
Satisfied.
Number of actions in build order: 35
---Final Output---
At time: 4:32
Minerals: 210 Gas: 40 Supply: 26/26
Drones: 12
Overlords: 3
Roaches: 7
Hatcheries: 1
Gas Extractors: 1
Spawning Pools: 1
Roach Warrens: 1
------------------
Fri Nov 05 18:49:42 EDT 2010: 984.3337354022492


And here is the SIMPLE format:
+ Show Spoiler +

10 SpawningPool M:204 G:0
10 Overlord M:100 G:0
10 Extractor M:27 G:0
11 +1 Drone on gas M:152 G:0
11 RoachWarren M:152 G:0
10 +1 Drone on gas M:2 G:0
12 +1 Drone on gas M:2 G:23
12 Overlord M:103 G:59
12 +1 Drone on minerals M:118 G3
12 Roach M:118 G3
14 Roach M:77 G:75
16 Roach M:80 G:66
18 Roach M:76 G:55
20 Roach M:80 G:45
22 Roach M:76 G:34
24 Roach M3 G:27



Thanks SO MUCH for this app! Are there any plans for Terran / Protoss? I'm an experienced Java developer and have looked at the code repository and am confident I could be of assistance if need be... PM me on here if you wish.


Enjoy!
I'm your average Brotoss brother, weilding my brommortal, brothership, brolossus, bro ray, broenix... BROTHERHOOD OF BROTOSS
Noise
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia47 Posts
November 06 2010 09:13 GMT
#913
Because it's a genetic algorithm after the first few thousand tries you won't get much deviation. This means it's possible for the program to miss a good build early and never discover it because it's just slightly mutating what it already has. As I said above, I think this program would benefit from more mutations, or perhaps an option of how much mutation to use.

When I wanted a muta build, it did 2 spires early on and then never changed it, even though one of the two spires was completely unnecessary.
Philidoreamon
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia16 Posts
November 06 2010 10:26 GMT
#914
this program is beautiful... just beautiful
The Touch
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom667 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-06 11:46:32
November 06 2010 10:45 GMT
#915
On November 06 2010 10:26 Loxon wrote:
Touch,

I believe that's really what waypoints are for, but you do need to be careful how you tweak them to hit your milestones. It really is designed to say "At WP1 I need to have 4 lings" and "At WP2 I need to have 7 roaches", but you have to be careful how aggressive you are with either (if you set WP1 too early, 6 pool might be the only way to go to get there, which will delay the warren more than you needed to.)


Yeah this is exactly my point. The waypoints are brilliant, and it's often simple to tweak what the program comes up with (say, by delaying the roach warren by a few seconds so that the lings are out in time to deny scouting), but sometimes the program can come up with builds that run counter to what you want to happen. I'm currently running a '4 lings by 3:00' WP0, and '7 roaches by 5:30' Final. The program is currently recommending 10 pool 9 warren. The lings are out by 2:40, but the warren has been down for almost 30 seconds at that point, which negates the entire purpose of the lings. This is only after 8 million games, so I'm sure it will come up with a better way soon, but it does demonstrate a situation where the waypoints don't achieve what the user really wants them to.

But yeah, the 'X has finished' condition is just something that I think would be a nice addition. The program is already awesome without it.
You Got The Touch
ChickenLips
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2912 Posts
November 06 2010 11:06 GMT
#916
What does enforce worker parity do?
❤Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ✿
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
November 06 2010 11:16 GMT
#917
It's now up to version 20, but there's no changelog between version 17 and version 20. Is v20 legit?
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
Dark_Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany3 Posts
November 06 2010 11:19 GMT
#918
On November 06 2010 20:16 Dionyseus wrote:
It's now up to version 20, but there's no changelog between version 17 and version 20. Is v20 legit?


It's posted on his site so it certainly is
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
November 06 2010 12:06 GMT
#919
Can someone explain what 'enforce worker parity" does?
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
Noise
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia47 Posts
November 06 2010 12:40 GMT
#920
Must be a union thing
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