EPTSo what will it take for SC2 to be considered on par with BW? Will it take a a 10+ year run, with almost perfect balance, and a comparable professional E-Sports scene to BW Pro League for the hard core BW players to finally acknowledge SC2 is on par with BW?
If SC2 has a 10 year run,will it be as good as BW?
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
So what will it take for SC2 to be considered on par with BW? Will it take a a 10+ year run, with almost perfect balance, and a comparable professional E-Sports scene to BW Pro League for the hard core BW players to finally acknowledge SC2 is on par with BW? | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On October 07 2010 14:22 StarcraftMan wrote: SC2 still has trouble garnering the proper respect from hard core BW players. BW players continually point to SC2's lack of balance, easier mechanics, etc, as reasons why SC2 is inferior to BW. So what will it take for SC2 to be considered on par with BW? Will it take a a 10+ year run, with almost perfect balance, and a comparable professional E-Sports scene to BW Pro League for the hard core BW players to finally acknowledge SC2 is on par with BW? you're assuming that it is right now and that everyone's just waiting for us to admit it when the fact of the matter is that right now the game isn't but i believe it COULD be in the future. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
1. The skill ceiling needs to be as high as people hope it is. 2. Blizzard needs to get their balancing act together. 3. Sponsors need to get involved with pro teams so that players can afford to keep playing the game without fear of dying of starvation if they don't place less than top 4 in the GSL. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
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john0507
164 Posts
Mechanics being easier is not a bad thing. Less APM needed dabbling in the little little stuffs , means more APM used micro other stuffs. It's completely understandable that those hardcore BW players that played an old game for 10+ years have trouble adapting to a new environment But SC2 actually allows for more exciting games and maneuvers when it reaches peak skill level. | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On October 07 2010 14:33 Tachion wrote: 1. The skill ceiling needs to be as high as people hope it is. I definitely agree with this point. In some weird way, BW's great run was related to the depth of the game - I don't even think the original developers ever thought the skill ceiling and hidden tricks/strategies could take so many years to unfold, and yet the game could stay balanced after the rise in top skill level. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
i have confidence that it will eventually be fixed up. | ||
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john0507
164 Posts
He'd see that SC2 currently is actually doing 10x better than BW in it's first half year. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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sureshot_
United States257 Posts
Totally agree with the skill ceiling, but I think a really easy way to increase the cap overall is to just add more units. Hopefully this will happen after HoS and LoV are released, doing so will totally refresh the multiplayer experience. Theres already a bunch of custom games on Bnet taking advantage of the lurker, scourge units in the database, plus wraiths, goliaths and all that good Terran stuff. You also have to remember that a skill cap is only theoretical. No one is or ever will be perfect and the cap is only going to continue to rise as more and more strategies, builds and tactics are thought up and put to the test. | ||
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FuRong
New Zealand3089 Posts
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Terranist
United States2496 Posts
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On October 07 2010 14:22 StarcraftMan wrote: SC2 still has trouble garnering the proper respect from hard core BW players. BW players continually point to SC2's lack of balance, easier mechanics, etc, as reasons why SC2 is inferior to BW. So what will it take for SC2 to be considered on par with BW? Will it take a a 10+ year run, with almost perfect balance, and a comparable professional E-Sports scene to BW Pro League for the hard core BW players to finally acknowledge SC2 is on par with BW? Source? Of course there are going to be guys who will stick with Brood War there were players who stuck to vanilla star craft saying the game was better almost until Starcraft 2 was announced. You will never get the "hardcore" audience from the previous game to switch over 100%. BW will always outshine SC2 because it was the first the more loved child who brought professional gaming into light, without BW SC2 would not exist so it will never be considered "on par." The most that can be aimed for is "a worthy successor" role just as good of a game rightfully made to take the place for a new generation. In order to do this the balance will have to be worked out both from the race perspective and the map pools improved. Esports features need to be improved. Most of what will make SC2 a great game at this point lie in Blizzard's court because the community is jumping all over to do as much as possible. So at this point we watch blizzard with baited breath and hope that they make the right decisions pausing to yell and rage when we think they didn't and occasionally get proven wrong. But we will not truly know how good of a game SC2 is in the short term. | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On October 07 2010 14:56 Terranist wrote: this has been discussed to death. the brood war generation will take it for granted while the kids now days will treasure it. everything is more awesome when you're were young and grew up with it. I'm from the BW generation. Heck, I'm from BEFORE the BW generation, when Starcraft was originally released in 1998. When I was playing in 1998, the reaver drop was non-existent and players that used vultures were laughed at. | ||
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kxr1der
United States213 Posts
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Benshin88
United States183 Posts
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:09 kxr1der wrote: but it is more about getting the balance on each unit correct and not allowing stuff like lurker hold glitches The lurker hold glitch and muta stacking glitch somehow added depth to BW but the game stayed balanced. That has to be one of the most amazing things about BW. | ||
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Parodoxx
United States549 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
On October 07 2010 14:34 DonKey_ wrote: honestly, even though sc2 in its current state may not be anywhere near as "competitive or balanced" as BW, it has been received sooooo much better among the casual audience in the U.S and Europe than BW ever was, which is a good sign so long as that casual audience doesn't lose interest. this is solely because world of warcraft boosted blizzards profile so much amongst casuals now many have moved on to the next blizzard game , once diablo 3 comes out some will shift over to that | ||
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On October 07 2010 14:34 DonKey_ wrote: honestly, even though sc2 in its current state may not be anywhere near as "competitive or balanced" as BW, it has been received sooooo much better among the casual audience in the U.S and Europe than BW ever was, which is a good sign so long as that casual audience doesn't lose interest. don't casuals lose interest innately? isn't that the reasoning behind the word casual? | ||
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zoLo
United States5896 Posts
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shynee
Canada180 Posts
On October 07 2010 14:22 StarcraftMan wrote: SC2 still has trouble garnering the proper respect from hard core BW players. BW players continually point to SC2's lack of balance, easier mechanics, etc, as reasons why SC2 is inferior to BW. So what will it take for SC2 to be considered on par with BW? Will it take a a 10+ year run, with almost perfect balance, and a comparable professional E-Sports scene to BW Pro League for the hard core BW players to finally acknowledge SC2 is on par with BW? Do you remember sc1 when it first came out? Do you remember that psi storm did something like 150 dmg? Who knows if it will do well. I personally think it will, especially with 2 expansions which will allow the development of new strategies. But honestly why ask such a broad and vague "what if" question? What if the sun exploded tomorrow? | ||
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:30 zoLo wrote: Yeah, in my view they do. A lot of SC2 players have played SC1, but they stopped over time. They will probably do the same with SC2. If you guys watch StarCraft 2 midnight release videos on YouTube, a ton of people made comments in the video on how they've been waiting for years for this game since they stopped playing the first. It's either that comment, or "I stopped playing the first years ago and haven't touched it in a while because of the graphics". besides the fact that its an RTS which has such strange replayabillity, especial when western audiences largely prefer MMO's and FPS's blizzard needs to have a plan for the future. get sales from casuals, once they're gone, hit the hardcores. unfortunately their plan seems to be "RELEASE THE GAME 3 TIMES MUAHAHAHAH" | ||
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Jacuzzi
United States528 Posts
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GoDannY
Germany442 Posts
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IronMonocle
Canada142 Posts
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BentoBox
Canada303 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:36 Jacuzzi wrote: I really fucking hate how people bash SC2 for being "too easy". It's a MODERN game. This is 2010. RTS games now have things like rally points and unlimited sized control groups. I didn't get a chance to play SC1 until about 2003, and it felt dated as hell even way back then. That was back when there was command and conquer and warcraft 3, which were more new player friendly because of said mechanics. BW is pretty awesome to watch nonetheless, just not something I would have wanted to get into playing since I couldn't play it in 1998 (not because I was too young, my family didn't really let me play PC games). There does not need to be a direct correlation between modernity and spoon feeding. There is nothing inherently wrong in wanting players to have their efforts compensated proportionally to their technical skill and wit. It is meant to be a competitive game after all. In the end, I don't know if it will ever be the better game but I think it will remain successful as long as Blizzard doesn't doze off. Just like BW, Melee was a competitive success out of sheer luck and its successor, Brawl, did not manage to live up to the expectations because everything was made easier for the players. Many tried to argue that it puts the core of the game (i.e. mindgames and strategy) at the forefront instead of valuing constant button presses to do anything, and thus provided for a more exciting game because professional piano players and mechanics would be on an even footing, thus providing for a faster developing metagame and exciting strats should be fleshed out every other day. But it just wasn't the case in the end. You don't add variety by removing options from the player. The game finally turned into a pile of trash where camping/turtling is encouraged because of lack of said options which were present in the predecessor. Streetfighter 4 also came out last year, and while this game wasn't nearly as bad of a sequel, it still made a lot of things easier for the newer player. Reversal windows were made bigger which means that any Ryu/Ken can simply mash dragon punch during blockstrings and get free damage if your opponent happened to miss a one frame link. Using reversals properly was actually a skill to be acquired back in SF2. Now I can play against a random noob and I still have to respect him when pressuring him because it is so easy for him to turn the tide against me if I happen to slip up just once. Add to that many other factors (e.g. ultras, dive kick characters) and you have a game whose pace became a lot slower compared to the previous SFs causing for an overall more stale experience. Both aforementioned games were still successes if only because of the newer generations that flocked in the respective communities. But they weren't better games. At the moment, I think the same applies to SC2. At least, until someone becomes consistent enough in his winnings to make us take a second look at what exactly can be achieved if you happened to, say, be gifted with Nada's hands. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
"will it be as good as BW", implying that its not already. That really pisses me off. I'm tired of the SC2 vs BW discussions, they're different games. If you prefer BW, thats great, play that. Why does one have to be better than the other? Elitist attitudes get noone anywhere, if you don't like a game don't play it. There is place in this world for both games to thrive imo. Even right now, we have the GSL and we still have competitive BW living side-by-side in Korea. | ||
Selith
United States238 Posts
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Sqq
Norway2023 Posts
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shinarit
Hungary900 Posts
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
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john0507
164 Posts
People need to stick it in their narrow mind , that THESE ARE 2 DIFFERENT GAMES. If you like the old BW that much , go play it. If you like the new SC2 , then go play it. As long as you are having fun playing it , no one cares. Which game will go on bigger on a competitive scene more or less has nothing to do with players at all. They're all in the hands of corporate sponsors and organizers. | ||
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Parodoxx
United States549 Posts
On October 07 2010 16:00 BentoBox wrote: There does not need to be a direct correlation between modernity and spoon feeding. There is nothing inherently wrong in wanting players to have their efforts compensated proportionally to their technical skill and wit. It is meant to be a competitive game after all. In the end, I don't know if it will ever be the better game but I think it will remain successful as long as Blizzard doesn't doze off. Just like BW, Melee was a competitive success out of sheer luck and its successor, Brawl, did not manage to live up to the expectations because everything was made easier for the players. Many tried to argue that it puts the core of the game (i.e. mindgames and strategy) at the forefront instead of valuing constant button presses to do anything, and thus provided for a more exciting game because professional piano players and mechanics would be on an even footing, thus providing for a faster developing metagame and exciting strats should be fleshed out every other day. But it just wasn't the case in the end. You don't add variety by removing options from the player. The game finally turned into a pile of trash where camping/turtling is encouraged because of lack of said options which were present in the predecessor. Streetfighter 4 also came out last year, and while this game wasn't nearly as bad of a sequel, it still made a lot of things easier for the newer player. Reversal windows were made bigger which means that any Ryu/Ken can simply mash dragon punch during blockstrings and get free damage if your opponent happened to miss a one frame link. Using reversals properly was actually a skill to be acquired back in SF2. Now I can play against a random noob and I still have to respect him when pressuring him because it is so easy for him to turn the tide against me if I happen to slip up just once. Add to that many other factors (e.g. ultras, dive kick characters) and you have a game whose pace became a lot slower compared to the previous SFs causing for an overall more stale experience. Both aforementioned games were still successes if only because of the newer generations that flocked in the respective communities. But they weren't better games. At the moment, I think the same applies to SC2. At least, until someone becomes consistent enough in his winnings to make us take a second look at what exactly can be achieved if you happened to, say, be gifted with Nada's hands. Its really sad talking about melee vs brawl when I loved that game so much, until it was slowed down to such a point that I felt like I could play with one hand.. However even though a fighter can have depth its not on the same plain as an rts. I feel sc2 has enough depth and unit diversity to have a high skill cap and not to be like everyone else and say the games not finished its kinda true. Units are what really bring depth to the game and there are still units to be made. I think the game has a chance if things that get discovered such as mineral boosting and fazing are not taken out as soon as they are placed in, it was those small things that made BW so amazing made melee so amazing and will make sc2 amazing its just blizzard who needs to see this. | ||
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Craton
United States17249 Posts
It's a pointless question. | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
If things continue going the way they are now, I really doubt it will ever be as good as BW. More popular, though, of course it will. There's a huge difference between making a good game, and making a game that appeals to a wide audience. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
Personally, I just can't see it happening unless there's a considerable redesign of multiple aspects of the game. Creep spreading is just bad for gameplay, hydras are trash without it, and roaches are so one dimensional. There's also a lack of hard counters, and not nearly as much unit variety, and less potential for extremely well controlled units to pull off near-miracles. (Terran has a bit of this, at least). Just the design of the game seems off... it's like they didn't want any units to lose too badly to any particular unit, because it would scare off the noobs if their marine army got decimated by 2 lurkers in that one second they looked away. BW is just so perfect... it's crazy how well a game like that turned out. It was kind of a fluke, they couldn't have predicted how many things would be figured out about the game but still have it be so well balanced in the end. You just can't replicate success like that. I think SC2 will do well, there's incredible hype about it now and the expansions will keep people hooked for years... it should definitely outperform WC3. But to remain a popular competitive game for an entire decade? Ehh... it's not impossible but I wouldn't put my money on it. | ||
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-miDnight-
Taiwan455 Posts
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Rikstah
Australia126 Posts
That being said, I played SC right at the beginning. SC2 has started out much much stronger than SC1 did. | ||
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