I did see something like this on Trumps channel once, where Trumps opponent (forget who) in the real late game built like 8 OCs, suicided all his SCVs, and only used Mules to mine so he could make his army bigger.

Gentlebite

United States132 Posts

October 05 2010 05:46 GMT

#24

I saw Boxer did this vs Idra I believe, he then just ported it over to his natural over but then again he is Boxer

Reborn8u

United States1761 Posts

October 05 2010 06:08 GMT

#25

On a map with a back door, like blistering, it might make sense to make your 1st expansion in your main and just make it an oc. Then set up a timing attack for 3 or 4 minutes later, while you do constant double mules on your main and move it to your natural during your push. I could see the extra scans/mules/supply being pretty nice especially for lower level players who have trouble with securing they're naturals early. It is at least safe because it is easier to defend (again think blistering/backdoors) until that point and you can actually get your scv count high enough to saturate your nat and main as soon as you push and land the oc at your nat.

If your opponent expo'd when your push comes you can open there back door and just move back and forth from they're 2 entrances.

I dunno it might be usefull....

STS17

United States1817 Posts

October 05 2010 06:14 GMT

#26

Let's take the case to the extreme, say you have 5 OC's + the CCs at your bases and are fairly diligent in your MULEing. You will have 10000 minerals and 0 gas unless your plan is to make only hellions and marines.

The issue with "Mass MULE" is you still mine gas at the same rate and when you are limited solely by your gas income, minerals in the bank and minerals in the field are one in the same.

smegged

Australia213 Posts

October 05 2010 06:17 GMT

#27

On October 05 2010 15:08 Reborn8u wrote:
On a map with a back door, like blistering, it might make sense to make your 1st expansion in your main and just make it an oc. Then set up a timing attack for 3 or 4 minutes later, while you do constant double mules on your main and move it to your natural during your push. I could see the extra scans/mules/supply being pretty nice especially for lower level players who have trouble with securing they're naturals early. It is at least safe because it is easier to defend (again think blistering/backdoors) until that point and you can actually get your scv count high enough to saturate your nat and main as soon as you push and land the oc at your nat.

If your opponent expo'd when your push comes you can open there back door and just move back and forth from they're 2 entrances.

I dunno it might be usefull....

I don't think you can build a CC to block off the back door on BS, simply because the grass gets in the way.

Ndugu

United States1078 Posts

October 05 2010 06:22 GMT

#28

I think this is the future of defend and macro terran, to be honest. Fast expand, build a fast third in main and morph it into an orbital for spare mules and bonus SCV that will allow you to saturate main and natural very fast (building peons as Terran takes forevvver). This might be well before you ever have a dream of taking a third (until the income from your expansions come into play).

If your opponent counters by expanding themself-- awesome, super fast third and good worker production to saturate it. If not, strong 2-base push available once 3rd orbital pays for itself.

Idk. Brb trying it in custom games.

shinarit

Hungary900 Posts

October 05 2010 06:32 GMT

#29

Dont get why people think mules dont generate money... yeah, sure they dont get it from the air, they mine out faster your patches. But. The faster you get money, the faster you can build units. If theres 10,000 mineral on the whole map and you get 7000 from it (because you mine it faster) than you are at an advantage. The problem is you have to expand and that can be hard to defend. We will see when pros start to experiment even more...

Elanshin

Australia216 Posts

October 05 2010 07:00 GMT

#30

The real thing to ask is. If you have the time and money to make another CC, why not expand? (zerg logic). Generally however what you will find is that, at a certain point you know your opponent will pressure you and you need to be able to defend it. Eg 4 gate incoming (you see the gates warping in) you know that within 1-2mins the pressure will be on.

Basically by building extra OCs (especially relatively early) your essentially playing a bit like zerg (reactive rather than proactive). Sure terran has alot more harass capabilities than zerg but usually you wont have money to throw at your opponent.

Another thing of note is that, If you end up entering late game, it means that the game is relatively even and you will be at a great disadvantage due to being mined out more, thus having to protect more bases.

Reborn8u

United States1761 Posts

October 05 2010 07:20 GMT

#31

I play protoss first of all so my terran play is poor, but I got curious and started messing around with mules and extra OC's
My terran macro/multitask is trash but I think this kind of thing could be terrifying late game, done by someone who is good enough to multitask it.

Having so many scans/mules/calldowns makes life pretty easy I must admit.

Heres a replay
It's not for critiquing my play, just to demonstrate better what I'm trying to put into words here.

Keep the income tab open.....

Smigi

United States328 Posts

October 05 2010 09:10 GMT

#32

Although statistically this makes sense..

In the early game, dishing out 400+150 minerals, will really slow your tech and initially not allow you to have a good sized force.

Especially when vsing zerg, you need to apply pressure.

If you build an extra Orbital, they can drone harder then even 3 orbitals.

Againist protoss, I'm not sure. However it would cut into your army size once again..

I think this is a little impractical, but I'm not ruling anything out imo.

The Icon

Canada111 Posts

October 05 2010 10:17 GMT

#33

I'm confused about this "free supply depot" business mentioned in the OP. Can someone clarifiy?

kojinshugi

Estonia2559 Posts

October 05 2010 10:29 GMT

#34

On October 05 2010 19:17 The Icon wrote:
I'm confused about this "free supply depot" business mentioned in the OP. Can someone clarifiy?

He means the CC provides 11 supply. I don't understand how a 550 mineral structure can be considered "free" but ah well.

The only way it'd be "free" is if you didn't use it for mules but instead used the energy on your second CC solely for supply drops. Six supply drops and you're 50 minerals in the black, but really, the timing just doesn't work out.

EDIT: I guess it does also let you pump SCVs like crazy. I might try this with a 1 rax FE build, i.e. build another CC/Orbital early and use it to saturate the expo even faster, while recouping the cost using supply drops. Once that's done could float it to a third.

chokke

Norway228 Posts

October 05 2010 10:32 GMT

#35

If you empty the main faster, it gives overall a higher income. It also allows you to take a new expo faster, like Lost Temple, fly to the island and summon 5-8 mules and have lots of minerals from a rather unused expo, also saves minerals from SCVs not need to be made in the same degree, and it frees up supply to give more army :p .

Allthough, this is on very, very shallow paper, and I have not enough insight gamewise and the game mechanisms (such as buildtime compared to the investment) so I can't bother to try it. Make it a Funday Monday for Day9, not more then 30 SCVs or something.

Patriot.dlk

Sweden5462 Posts

October 05 2010 10:46 GMT

#36

lol this is hilarious imo. Why don't you test this strategy?

klauz619

453 Posts

October 05 2010 10:54 GMT

#37

I can see the merit in making a third orbital command once you have a natural set up, this will serve as extra scans.

But making an orbital and just camping it in your main instead of your first expansion(you are 1 basing atm) seems so counterproductive, 550 investment early game is a hell of a lot more than the bonus income you get later on.

Silu

Finland165 Posts

October 05 2010 11:11 GMT

#38

For the plan of turtling on 2base with a ton of OCs (for an eventual mass mule third), building room is actually a factor as well. Many maps barely have enough room for Terran production buildings as it is, as they require the most room (since they're big, addons are clunky, and you need to have walking space unlike gateways).

KevinIX

United States2472 Posts

October 05 2010 11:28 GMT

#39

The reason is that building an extra command center is 550 minerals not spent in army. It will be at least 4-5 minutes before you actually start gaining the economical advantage. During this time, your army is significantly weaker than your opponent, and you're in danger of flat out losing to a push. This seems short, but when you realize that most games are only 12-15 minutes long, that's a huge chunk of time where you are behind your opponent. Late game, though, it is actually common to see Terrans build extra orbitals for mules and getting rid of SCVs to free up supply.

In fact, if you wanted to build an orbital, just use it to expand. Building orbitals inside your base is a huge waste.

ChickenLips

2912 Posts

October 05 2010 11:37 GMT

#40

There was a game, BratOK vs. MorroW where they just split the map in half with tanks, turret lines, senstor towers etc.

At one point BratOK had a maxed army, upgrades running and around 8k minerals in the bank so he just put down 6 CCs in the open for scans. Was on Metalopolis btw.