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I have a question regarding orbital commands.
It is commonly accepted that one mule = 280 minerals. An orbital command costs 550 minerals and provides 10 food. This means that 2 mules pays off an OC (and you effectively get an extra supply depot for free).
Why do I then not see pros building large numbers of orbital commands inside their main in the mid/late game specifically for mules/scans? Is it the building time? Does it set a player too far behind?
Has anyone done any experimentation with this? The typical terran player will turn their third expansion into a planetary fortress. Having OCs in your main would provide you with the ability to be mining out your 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th bases behind your PFs while still maintaining both lower food costs for your workers and calling down excessive amounts of mules. I could really see late game economies that were cranked to the point where you could beat zerg in military unit production using this.
However, I have not experimented with doing this and even if I did, I am not skilled enough to work out whether the timings "work out". What are peoples' thoughts?
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Because money now (early game) is more precious than money later. Not to mention you'll just mine out your main faster. Mules don't magically create money, you just get it faster.
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I'm thinking the general answer would be something along the lines of:
If you're building "many CC's" you're effectively not building units. The cost value of CC:Mule:Supply can be justified till the cows come home, but when it comes down to it, 2/3 immortals/tanks/ultras (or something) is going to be more useful than a spare CC.
Unless you're awesome and you wall off a choke with Mules.
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good for mid game, but bad for late game cause then youd get mined out of all your bases before your opponent, and of all the minerls you mined - more would have gone twards building than you army, giving your opponent a LATE game army advantage. i think...
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On October 05 2010 12:56 italiangymnast wrote:
good for mid game, but bad for late game cause then youd get mined out of all your bases before your opponent, and of all the minerls you mined - more would have gone twards building than you army, giving your opponent a LATE game army advantage. i think...
Theoretically that would be offset by the fact that you have a larger military to gain more map presence.
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Dam I came in here wishing some dumb ass would have posted a continuation of "so, mules are op"
o the lulz it would have provided :/
User was warned for this post
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Same reason Zerg wouldn't I guess. Gas limits armies, not minerals. Getting 10000 minerals won't solve anything. In fact, you can actually lose if you invest too much into throw-away marines or something to "keep your minerals low"
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Time and the 550 minerals involved would make it not worth it. That's like, 11 marines. And while you wait for those minerals, your army will be entire 11 marines smaller.
That's a lot of marines.
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On October 05 2010 13:00 DonKey_ wrote:
Dam I came in here wishing some dumb ass would have posted a continuation of "so, mules are op"
o the lulz it would have provided :/
User was warned for this post
rofl so did I.
The reason is army value. 450 mins is 9 marines. If your making another cc you might as well expand.
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On October 05 2010 13:02 King K. Rool wrote:
Time and the 550 minerals involved would make it not worth it. That's like, 11 marines. And while you wait for those minerals, your army will be entire 11 marines smaller.
That's a lot of marines.
450 minerals - you save 100 minerals on a supply depot.
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it would be cool though, to build a few OCs in your base for a short term mineral boost - but then just lift those OCs off when you want to expand. sounds logical in my head
Edit: just did some real basic calculations
if you count the OC as costing 450 min (100 off cause of supply depot cost. you are able to continually mine with mule. that is to say, as one mule dies you are able to make another.
a mule mines at 30/trip. thats 15 trips to pay the 450 minerals.
an scv costs 50 min and mines 5/trip. thats 10 trips to pay for itself.
thats not too much of a difference in pure money value - not counting time to make.
it becomes less valuable because of the amount of time it takes to actually build an OC compared to the SCV. but the big advantages are:
-extra Scans if in emergency situation (damn banshees)
-can easily lift off and use the OC at an expansion.
-dont have to worry about making supply depots
-if used for your wallin - it has LOTS o health and cannot be busted/burst (idk day9, you tell me)
-and lost and most importantly - your max 200/200 army will have less SCVs in it and more attacking units!!
dunno if this is actually ligit. just what i think of.
criticize away! =D
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Just some numbers to spice up this thread a little bit:
CC - 100 seconds
OC - 35 seconds
mule 1 - instant + 50 seconds to bring in minerals
mule 2 - 30 seconds + 50 seconds to bring in minerals
You break even on each OC in 215 in game seconds (3 minutes, 35 seconds).
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On October 05 2010 13:11 italiangymnast wrote:
it would be cool though, to build a few OCs in your base for a short term mineral boost - but then just lift those OCs off when you want to expand. sounds logical in my head
The situation that I was specifically thinking of was for a terran to take their main and natural and turtle. Then, after building a total of 6-8 OCs, expanding three times with PFs and using solely mules to mine one of those bases. Heck, if you had a gold expo you could mine it out in no time flat.
This would provide a huge end game income but I'm not sure if you could make the timing work on it. The cost is effectively 3 minutes 35 seconds per OC.
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As was mentioned, there is a long build time and a long period where you have effectively spent 550 minerals for no return. This is the same kind of vulnerability as teching or expanding with a lot less to gain from it.
On the other hand I think, especially on maps like Xel Naga, a fast 3rd CC as a fortress a little in front of the expand could be a decent investment to stop a early harass while you saturate your bases faster.
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It is a waste of money.
Mules/Orbitals don't generate MORE money, they just make it faster.
There seems to be this general misconception that somehow Orbital will conjure up 200 some minerals out of thin air.
So you have 1500 per mineral patch... are you really gonna build 4 CC and waste a whole patch on buildings intended to get you the other minerals faster? If your opponent spends that on Army units you're going to get rolled.
It generates 280 minerals FASTER than otherwise, but its not 280 minerals that are conjured out of thin air- they are still subtracted from your base. If you are on 1 or 2 or 3 bases- its a finite amount. You're talking about a LOT of money right there, JUST into econ. You'll get flat out rolled by a stronger army.
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Mass mules could be a way to mine quickly at a distant (or gold) expansion when you near the 200/200 supply cap, but before the map is mined out. You could send most of your mineral mining scvs to repair stuff in your army/get killed to free up supply too. But of course this is only in the late game.
Another problem would be building space, they're so BIG you'd have to build them outside your main, in random locations. Maybe you could use them to block pathing with the building armour upgrade late game (inferior to PF walls, i know).
At the very least it would be useful for getting that Mule X'ing achievement which i haven't managed yet :p
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i have thought of this too in conjunction with some sort of 13:15min 8 rax reactor build where you get 162 marines and then push... but its pretty terrible idea so i gave it up for the same reason anyone else did.. it doesn't work.
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You're spending 400 up front, waiting 100 seconds, spending another 150, waiting 35 more seconds, and THEN you start getting that extra mineral income which will take another couple minutes to pay itself off just spamming MULEs. You've now spent almost 5 minutes to break even. That's WAY too long to invest 550 minerals and get no return on investment. By the time it starts to pay off, the added rate of resource depletion will bite you in the ass, hard. You're much, much, much better off building that CC at an actual expansion.
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So many MULE threads today...
Interesting idea, but impractical I think.
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Actually Lz was doing this on his stream today. Opened reaper with triple OC against Zerg. Worked everytime he tried it.
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I could see one extra OC being good and useful, but no more than one. Three OCs of MULEs is more than any reasonable Terran can handle.
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I did see something like this on Trumps channel once, where Trumps opponent (forget who) in the real late game built like 8 OCs, suicided all his SCVs, and only used Mules to mine so he could make his army bigger.
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I saw Boxer did this vs Idra I believe, he then just ported it over to his natural over but then again he is Boxer
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On a map with a back door, like blistering, it might make sense to make your 1st expansion in your main and just make it an oc. Then set up a timing attack for 3 or 4 minutes later, while you do constant double mules on your main and move it to your natural during your push. I could see the extra scans/mules/supply being pretty nice especially for lower level players who have trouble with securing they're naturals early. It is at least safe because it is easier to defend (again think blistering/backdoors) until that point and you can actually get your scv count high enough to saturate your nat and main as soon as you push and land the oc at your nat.
If your opponent expo'd when your push comes you can open there back door and just move back and forth from they're 2 entrances.
I dunno it might be usefull....
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Let's take the case to the extreme, say you have 5 OC's + the CCs at your bases and are fairly diligent in your MULEing. You will have 10000 minerals and 0 gas unless your plan is to make only hellions and marines.
The issue with "Mass MULE" is you still mine gas at the same rate and when you are limited solely by your gas income, minerals in the bank and minerals in the field are one in the same.
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On October 05 2010 15:08 Reborn8u wrote:
On a map with a back door, like blistering, it might make sense to make your 1st expansion in your main and just make it an oc. Then set up a timing attack for 3 or 4 minutes later, while you do constant double mules on your main and move it to your natural during your push. I could see the extra scans/mules/supply being pretty nice especially for lower level players who have trouble with securing they're naturals early. It is at least safe because it is easier to defend (again think blistering/backdoors) until that point and you can actually get your scv count high enough to saturate your nat and main as soon as you push and land the oc at your nat.
If your opponent expo'd when your push comes you can open there back door and just move back and forth from they're 2 entrances.
I dunno it might be usefull....
I don't think you can build a CC to block off the back door on BS, simply because the grass gets in the way.
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I think this is the future of defend and macro terran, to be honest. Fast expand, build a fast third in main and morph it into an orbital for spare mules and bonus SCV that will allow you to saturate main and natural very fast (building peons as Terran takes forevvver). This might be well before you ever have a dream of taking a third (until the income from your expansions come into play).
If your opponent counters by expanding themself-- awesome, super fast third and good worker production to saturate it. If not, strong 2-base push available once 3rd orbital pays for itself.
Idk. Brb trying it in custom games.
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Dont get why people think mules dont generate money... yeah, sure they dont get it from the air, they mine out faster your patches. But. The faster you get money, the faster you can build units. If theres 10,000 mineral on the whole map and you get 7000 from it (because you mine it faster) than you are at an advantage. The problem is you have to expand and that can be hard to defend. We will see when pros start to experiment even more...
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The real thing to ask is. If you have the time and money to make another CC, why not expand? (zerg logic). Generally however what you will find is that, at a certain point you know your opponent will pressure you and you need to be able to defend it. Eg 4 gate incoming (you see the gates warping in) you know that within 1-2mins the pressure will be on.
Basically by building extra OCs (especially relatively early) your essentially playing a bit like zerg (reactive rather than proactive). Sure terran has alot more harass capabilities than zerg but usually you wont have money to throw at your opponent.
Another thing of note is that, If you end up entering late game, it means that the game is relatively even and you will be at a great disadvantage due to being mined out more, thus having to protect more bases.
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I play protoss first of all so my terran play is poor, but I got curious and started messing around with mules and extra OC's
My terran macro/multitask is trash but I think this kind of thing could be terrifying late game, done by someone who is good enough to multitask it.
Having so many scans/mules/calldowns makes life pretty easy I must admit.
Heres a replay
It's not for critiquing my play, just to demonstrate better what I'm trying to put into words here.
Keep the income tab open.....
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Although statistically this makes sense..
In the early game, dishing out 400+150 minerals, will really slow your tech and initially not allow you to have a good sized force.
Especially when vsing zerg, you need to apply pressure.
If you build an extra Orbital, they can drone harder then even 3 orbitals.
Againist protoss, I'm not sure. However it would cut into your army size once again..
I think this is a little impractical, but I'm not ruling anything out imo.
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I'm confused about this "free supply depot" business mentioned in the OP. Can someone clarifiy?
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On October 05 2010 19:17 The Icon wrote:
I'm confused about this "free supply depot" business mentioned in the OP. Can someone clarifiy?
He means the CC provides 11 supply. I don't understand how a 550 mineral structure can be considered "free" but ah well.
The only way it'd be "free" is if you didn't use it for mules but instead used the energy on your second CC solely for supply drops. Six supply drops and you're 50 minerals in the black, but really, the timing just doesn't work out.
EDIT: I guess it does also let you pump SCVs like crazy. I might try this with a 1 rax FE build, i.e. build another CC/Orbital early and use it to saturate the expo even faster, while recouping the cost using supply drops. Once that's done could float it to a third.
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If you empty the main faster, it gives overall a higher income. It also allows you to take a new expo faster, like Lost Temple, fly to the island and summon 5-8 mules and have lots of minerals from a rather unused expo, also saves minerals from SCVs not need to be made in the same degree, and it frees up supply to give more army :p .
Allthough, this is on very, very shallow paper, and I have not enough insight gamewise and the game mechanisms (such as buildtime compared to the investment) so I can't bother to try it. Make it a Funday Monday for Day9, not more then 30 SCVs or something.
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lol this is hilarious imo. Why don't you test this strategy?
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I can see the merit in making a third orbital command once you have a natural set up, this will serve as extra scans.
But making an orbital and just camping it in your main instead of your first expansion(you are 1 basing atm) seems so counterproductive, 550 investment early game is a hell of a lot more than the bonus income you get later on.
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For the plan of turtling on 2base with a ton of OCs (for an eventual mass mule third), building room is actually a factor as well. Many maps barely have enough room for Terran production buildings as it is, as they require the most room (since they're big, addons are clunky, and you need to have walking space unlike gateways).
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The reason is that building an extra command center is 550 minerals not spent in army. It will be at least 4-5 minutes before you actually start gaining the economical advantage. During this time, your army is significantly weaker than your opponent, and you're in danger of flat out losing to a push. This seems short, but when you realize that most games are only 12-15 minutes long, that's a huge chunk of time where you are behind your opponent. Late game, though, it is actually common to see Terrans build extra orbitals for mules and getting rid of SCVs to free up supply.
In fact, if you wanted to build an orbital, just use it to expand. Building orbitals inside your base is a huge waste.
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There was a game, BratOK vs. MorroW where they just split the map in half with tanks, turret lines, senstor towers etc.
At one point BratOK had a maxed army, upgrades running and around 8k minerals in the bank so he just put down 6 CCs in the open for scans. Was on Metalopolis btw.
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uhhh, then aren't probes, drones, and scv OP? you spend 50 minerals on them and within 80 game seconds, they already pay for their cost?
(sarcasm if you didn't get it the first time)
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well mass building OC in late game is a good strategy for a turtling terran.
When you have enough OC for a infinite mule calldowns on about 10-20 patches you can just sack the workers on minerals (leaving those in gas only). Your army will get a boost in its size due to the fact that Mules = 0 supply and you free about 30-40 supply worth of workers.
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On October 05 2010 19:46 Patriot.dlk wrote:
lol this is hilarious imo. Why don't you test this strategy?
For several reasons:
1) I was at work when I posted this
2) I am not good enough to be able to get the timings right on something like this
3) It would require me playing as terran, which would not be fun (though maybe to play some insane strat like this it might be).
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You will be at a disadvantage for 5 minutes game time/3 and a half minutes real time and mine out faster, so it's not really worth it.
Building an extra SCV evens out in 90 seconds and is done at 50 mineral increments, which are much more managable.
Here's the math:
The CC builds in 100 seconds, which is ~70 minerals not mined by the SCV that builds it, the supply is worth 137.5, the mule mines 240 or 270 minerals and it takes 88.(8) seconds to regenerate 50 energy. If you always use mules on the closest mineral patches they will deplete quickly leaving your base with less patches and overall income, compared to spreading the mules over all patches, so I'll use 255 as average(2.87 minerals/second of OC time).
Totals
550 + 70 - 137.5 = 485
485/2.87=169
CC+OC build time is 135 seconds + 169 = 304 seconds until you're even.
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EPT
