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On September 28 2010 21:28 ilbh wrote:
the radius pre-patch was completely OP. if the only answer zergs have against thors is something OP then the game is broken.
Yeah I guess thats why zergs were rampant owning all these tourneys with their op units, eh?
oh..
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On September 28 2010 21:28 Bosu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 21:26 JinDesu wrote:On September 28 2010 21:18 Wolf wrote:
If Ultralisks were that effective against Thors, I wonder how ridiculous they were against Stalker/Collossus compositions. If wasn't that effective because: a) colossi have some sick range b) colossi have splash c) the mobility of colossi and stalkers would easily play a role in defending against mass ultras and d) colossi do some sick damage because of that splash Ultras are super effective against colossi / stalkers. However, when protoss adapts by throwing in void rays/immortals/ upgrading stalker blink things balance out pretty well.
Sorry, I assumed blink stalkers.
But re: colossi - And then the colossi walks up a cliff.
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On September 28 2010 21:22 Raketti wrote:Took some pictures of the splash changes: Pretty major blow if you ask me.
This should also be added into the OP, good test.
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On September 28 2010 21:19 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 21:03 Bosu wrote:On September 28 2010 21:00 Raiznhell wrote:On September 28 2010 20:42 Bosu wrote:On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote:
k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors.
the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed)
in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf. Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter. And hydras are fucking terrible. hydras are not terribel and roaches en mass are excellent vs mech in general let alone just thors. with the nerf to siege tanks hydras get 3 shotted by tanks now instead of 2 shotted which means they ahve gained alot of use now against mech simply because they have just as much survivability as roaches against siege fire. and hydras range and DPS is far from horrible. hardly anyones been taking advantage of the fact that hydras are now as durable as roaches against siege tanks. and hellions arent good against roaches really at all if you have hydras in close proximity to them so the hydras kill the hellions anytime they try to do any sort of kiting and it takes forever to kill a single roach with a bunch of hellions. ultralisks are not the prime counter to thors as while thors are armored they do insane dps to single targets and ultras generall dont come in huge numbers. massed roaches however is difficult for the thors to kill all of and if you throw in the hydras dps behind the roaches you waste thors np given the situation goes right after all micro and macro are important in all scenarios. the thor is the mech unit of choice against the ultralisk otherwise the only prime units would be marauders which are barracks units and barracks units arent deployed when going mech or air units.... No. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. If ultras are not good vs thors then there is no counter to thors supported by hellions against zerglings and just a small amount of tanks against roach/hydra. well then i guess you dont watch how top level players deal with mech then :/ as mass roach is pretty much the best way to deal with mech until alot of siege tanks are deployed in which ultras are gotten out to counter the siege lines but against pure thor/ hellion with a dash of tanks mass roach is the counter as a dash of tanks having to 3 shot roaches doesnt add up to mucha nd hellions dont do crap against the high roach hp. i mean obviously mass roache isn't going to steamroll mass thors but it's a cost effective army trades and while macroing good you come out way on top because zerg can resupply mass roach exetremely faster than terran can resupply mass thor. there was a game in the beta that was an example of your type of thinking. cellawerra was playing a guy named "slayersboxer" but not the real slayersboxer and the guy went mass thor and hellion, and cellawerra went mass roach and was being very cost effective until he decided to switch into mutas and then into ultralisks which costed him the game. it's clear that thors obvious counter is in lots of units in general as thors do insane damage but only to single targets and at a slow rate. when simple common sense is applied the first thought counter is zergling sbut they get roasted by hellions so you move up to roaches which can kill both thors and hellions cost effectively when massed plus they can burrow move whenever terran doesnt have a raven or tower around. when you watch players like artosis and idra when dealing with lots of siege tanks they go ultra but when dealing with lots of thors and helliosn they usually go mass roach with infestors supprt to neural a few tanks here and there. you saying i dont have a clue is rude and ignorant and you shoudl really pay more attantion to hwo the higher level players act before randomly bashing people in forums. and because siege tanks now need to three shot hydras they are much much mroe useful so you should rethink the idea that they suck. their only weakspot now is that they are kinda slow.
we understand ultras were not the be all end all only unit to use. but understand this.
not only have ultras been nerfed in zvt. but also zvp. not just against thors. but in general. not just against terran, but against protoss as well.
against stalker heavy armys(at mass), ultras ARE the be all end all ground unit. with reduced damage and reduced splash, they are less efficient meaning our so called "hard counter" is now a huge investment for a "soft counter" at best. yes roaches are used en masse with great effect, but when late game comes, and upgrades are all maxed for both sides, roaches dont cut it any more. which is where the ultra fit in. but no longer. ultra was zergs "YEAH GAME MOMENTUM HAS TURNED!" it is now no longer that. so what unit changes the momentum in games for zerg now?
........exactly.
read up all the threads about zergs needing help with late game. 95% of the answers suggest ultras as the late game unit. now remove ultra from the equation. what unit is our late game army based on?
......exactly
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On September 28 2010 21:29 fafalecureuil wrote:
May you make a test with a thor surrounded by marines? (ultra attacking the thor)
Only a post patch one, already updated my client.
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On September 28 2010 21:18 Wolf wrote:
If Ultralisks were that effective against Thors, I wonder how ridiculous they were against Stalker/Collossus compositions.
Well they were the one and only thing that worked.
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Why can't blizzard do some testing before releasing a hotfix?
This is maybe the last thing Zerg needs. Now it will be so much harder late-game ><
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On September 28 2010 21:28 ilbh wrote:
the radius pre-patch was completely OP. if the only answer zergs have against thors is something OP then the game is broken.
Well in the world of Starcraft every unit needs to have about 400 HP and they regenerate rather quickly because of their large size.
BTW this patch was necessary, but Zerg still needs something to balance this out. It's sad when the only thing I know I can do to win in the late game is make imbalultralisks.
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Sigh.
They're so so quick to "fix" Zerg OP, but we wait months for minor Terran nerfs that make no difference?
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Hmm well it is obvious big BS what Blizzard did here. I wonder if it was intended or not. If yes how soon will we see an hotfix.
Also
+ Show Spoiler +
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Ultralisks don't counter Thors if you have a butt-ton of hellions sitting infront of them like you should. Rather, the main counter to Thors and mech in general are broodlords and corruptors.
Really if the maps weren't stupid bunched up and Thors didn't clip into each other in an orgy of stupid the old Ultralisk range thing wouldn't have given them an advantage...
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On September 28 2010 21:08 TyrantPotato wrote:
Patch 1.1.2
-Removed the unit "Ultralisk" from the zerg race and have replaced it with the Roach having its size doubled.
"we felt that the ultralisk wasn't doing its job as intended, so we decided to remove it from the game. however we know that many zerg players will be unhappy with that change so we are increasing the roaches unit size, we feel that should make the zerg army look bigger, and will prevent the "OP" flooding into chokes that we believe is breaking the game."
"we have also heard rumours that there are problems with Terran being "OP", we have taken the initiative to program a new "Forum Bot". it will serve as a automated admin that will remove any such foolish allegations that are posted on the battle.net forums. we will not stand for such ignorant opinions."
"we look forward to a successful GSL season 2"
sorry. im just annoyed.
haha
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On September 28 2010 21:21 Brutus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 21:18 Croz wrote:Sorry for spamming these images. But another recap of the images I posted. These are informing pokeballs though  ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/9MqQv.png) This is right, please update the OP with this, because maybe then the stupid kids yelling LOLOL ZERG TEARS IT WAS A BUG L2P blabla Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 21:19 Raiznhell wrote:On September 28 2010 21:03 Bosu wrote:On September 28 2010 21:00 Raiznhell wrote:On September 28 2010 20:42 Bosu wrote:On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote:
k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors.
the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed)
in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf. Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter. And hydras are fucking terrible. hydras are not terribel and roaches en mass are excellent vs mech in general let alone just thors. with the nerf to siege tanks hydras get 3 shotted by tanks now instead of 2 shotted which means they ahve gained alot of use now against mech simply because they have just as much survivability as roaches against siege fire. and hydras range and DPS is far from horrible. hardly anyones been taking advantage of the fact that hydras are now as durable as roaches against siege tanks. and hellions arent good against roaches really at all if you have hydras in close proximity to them so the hydras kill the hellions anytime they try to do any sort of kiting and it takes forever to kill a single roach with a bunch of hellions. ultralisks are not the prime counter to thors as while thors are armored they do insane dps to single targets and ultras generall dont come in huge numbers. massed roaches however is difficult for the thors to kill all of and if you throw in the hydras dps behind the roaches you waste thors np given the situation goes right after all micro and macro are important in all scenarios. the thor is the mech unit of choice against the ultralisk otherwise the only prime units would be marauders which are barracks units and barracks units arent deployed when going mech or air units.... No. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. If ultras are not good vs thors then there is no counter to thors supported by hellions against zerglings and just a small amount of tanks against roach/hydra. well then i guess you dont watch how top level players deal with mech then :/ as mass roach is pretty much the best way to deal with mech until alot of siege tanks are deployed in which ultras are gotten out to counter the siege lines but against pure thor/ hellion with a dash of tanks mass roach is the counter as a dash of tanks having to 3 shot roaches doesnt add up to mucha nd hellions dont do crap against the high roach hp. i mean obviously mass roache sins't going to steamroll mass thors but it's a cost effective army trades and while macroing good you come out way on top because zerg can resupply mass roach exetremely faster than terran can resupply mass thor. there was a game in the beta that was an example of your type of thinking. cellawerra was playing a guy named "slayersboxer" but not the real slayersboxer and the guy went mass thor and hellion, and cellawerra went mass roach and was being very cost effective until he decided to switch into mutas and then into ultralisks which costed him the game. it's clear that thors obvious counter is in lots of units in general as thors do insane damage but only to single targets and at a slow rate. when simple common sense is applied the first thought counter is zergling sbut they get roasted by hellions so you move up to roaches which can kill both thors and hellions cost effectively when massed plus they can burrow move whenever terran doesnt have a raven or tower around. when you watch players like artosis and idra when dealing with lots of siege tanks they go ultra but when dealing with lots of thors and helliosn they usually go mass roach with infestors supprt to neural a few tanks here and there. you saying i dont have a clue is rude and ignorant and you shoudl really pay more attantion to hwo the higher level players act before randomly bashing people in forums. and because siege tanks now need to three shot hydras they are much much mroe useful so you should rethink the idea that they suck. their only weakspot now is that they are kinda slow. You have no clue man. Please just stop.
sigh, typical rude zerg players just cry and insult everyone and dont give anything a second thought.
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Ah well, I'll just stick with playing 4v4s a while longer...
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On September 28 2010 21:38 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 21:21 Brutus wrote:On September 28 2010 21:18 Croz wrote:Sorry for spamming these images. But another recap of the images I posted. These are informing pokeballs though This is right, please update the OP with this, because maybe then the stupid kids yelling LOLOL ZERG TEARS IT WAS A BUG L2P blabla On September 28 2010 21:19 Raiznhell wrote:On September 28 2010 21:03 Bosu wrote:On September 28 2010 21:00 Raiznhell wrote:On September 28 2010 20:42 Bosu wrote:On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote:
k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors.
the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed)
in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf. Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter. And hydras are fucking terrible. hydras are not terribel and roaches en mass are excellent vs mech in general let alone just thors. with the nerf to siege tanks hydras get 3 shotted by tanks now instead of 2 shotted which means they ahve gained alot of use now against mech simply because they have just as much survivability as roaches against siege fire. and hydras range and DPS is far from horrible. hardly anyones been taking advantage of the fact that hydras are now as durable as roaches against siege tanks. and hellions arent good against roaches really at all if you have hydras in close proximity to them so the hydras kill the hellions anytime they try to do any sort of kiting and it takes forever to kill a single roach with a bunch of hellions. ultralisks are not the prime counter to thors as while thors are armored they do insane dps to single targets and ultras generall dont come in huge numbers. massed roaches however is difficult for the thors to kill all of and if you throw in the hydras dps behind the roaches you waste thors np given the situation goes right after all micro and macro are important in all scenarios. the thor is the mech unit of choice against the ultralisk otherwise the only prime units would be marauders which are barracks units and barracks units arent deployed when going mech or air units.... No. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. If ultras are not good vs thors then there is no counter to thors supported by hellions against zerglings and just a small amount of tanks against roach/hydra. well then i guess you dont watch how top level players deal with mech then :/ as mass roach is pretty much the best way to deal with mech until alot of siege tanks are deployed in which ultras are gotten out to counter the siege lines but against pure thor/ hellion with a dash of tanks mass roach is the counter as a dash of tanks having to 3 shot roaches doesnt add up to mucha nd hellions dont do crap against the high roach hp. i mean obviously mass roache sins't going to steamroll mass thors but it's a cost effective army trades and while macroing good you come out way on top because zerg can resupply mass roach exetremely faster than terran can resupply mass thor. there was a game in the beta that was an example of your type of thinking. cellawerra was playing a guy named "slayersboxer" but not the real slayersboxer and the guy went mass thor and hellion, and cellawerra went mass roach and was being very cost effective until he decided to switch into mutas and then into ultralisks which costed him the game. it's clear that thors obvious counter is in lots of units in general as thors do insane damage but only to single targets and at a slow rate. when simple common sense is applied the first thought counter is zergling sbut they get roasted by hellions so you move up to roaches which can kill both thors and hellions cost effectively when massed plus they can burrow move whenever terran doesnt have a raven or tower around. when you watch players like artosis and idra when dealing with lots of siege tanks they go ultra but when dealing with lots of thors and helliosn they usually go mass roach with infestors supprt to neural a few tanks here and there. you saying i dont have a clue is rude and ignorant and you shoudl really pay more attantion to hwo the higher level players act before randomly bashing people in forums. and because siege tanks now need to three shot hydras they are much much mroe useful so you should rethink the idea that they suck. their only weakspot now is that they are kinda slow. You have no clue man. Please just stop. sigh, typical rude zerg players just cry and insult everyone and dont give anything a second thought.
They gave you valid points as to why you are wrong. And since you still don't see the error of your thinking: you have no clue.
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What's hilarious is that situation report 1.1 states that they FEEL that ultras are too difficult to stop with a ground army so the dmg was nerfed so that ultra with the old splash would be "balanced".
Now ultra got reduced dmg AND reduced splash.. So much for minor balanced tweaks over longer periods of time to ensure good and well-tested changes!
Maybe the feeling that ultras were too hard to stop with a ground army would go away with this AoE nerf alone, yes? Bring back old dmg, or even increase it further... Blizzard needs to realize that they need to completely rebalance ultras now, they are completely different units, that were nerfed because of their old mechanics and how they used to 'feel'
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On September 28 2010 19:58 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 19:55 JinDesu wrote:On September 28 2010 19:53 dcemuser wrote:
This an absolutely massive nerf to the Ultralisk's viability because even if the Terran was using 1 Thor, the Ultralisks could focus fire the Thor and splash the rest of the army.
I really think the unit is going to be largely abandoned in favor of Broods at this point. Either way, this was not what Zerg needed right now, and I think the community backlash is going to be huge.
Excellent pictures by the way, OP, illustrates the change perfectly. Erm no - you can't fit enough ultras into the area to splash one thor into other thors. What would happen is each ultra hitting each thor would splash onto each surrounding thor, thus amplifying the effect. No, I mean if you had, for example 3 Ultras attacking a Terran army with like 3 Tanks, 10 marines, and 1 Thor, then you could have the Ultras target the Thor and it would hit -everything- in the Terran's army. If you targeted the Marines, you would hit barely anything.
Which is how it always was and ultras still would lose.
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On September 28 2010 21:40 Trampsi wrote:
What's hilarious is that situation report 1.1 states that they FEEL that ultras are too difficult to stop with a ground army so the dmg was nerfed so that ultra with the old splash would be "balanced".
Now ultra got reduced dmg AND reduced splash.. So much for minor balanced tweaks over longer periods of time to ensure good and well-tested changes!
Maybe the feeling that ultras are too hard to stop with a ground army would go away with this AoE nerf alone, yes? Bring back old dmg, or even increase it further... Blizzard needs to realize that tey need to completely rebalance ultras now, they are completely different units, that were nerfed because of their old mechanics.
I agree completely. They nerfed the unit based on the old mechanics, and then changed the mechanics to fix a 'bug' (still not comfortable calling it that, it was really them having zero foresight).
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On September 28 2010 21:33 Subversion wrote:
Sigh.
They're so so quick to "fix" Zerg OP, but we wait months for minor Terran nerfs that make no difference?
do you REALLY want a balanced game?
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On September 28 2010 21:42 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 21:40 Trampsi wrote:
What's hilarious is that situation report 1.1 states that they FEEL that ultras are too difficult to stop with a ground army so the dmg was nerfed so that ultra with the old splash would be "balanced".
Now ultra got reduced dmg AND reduced splash.. So much for minor balanced tweaks over longer periods of time to ensure good and well-tested changes!
Maybe the feeling that ultras are too hard to stop with a ground army would go away with this AoE nerf alone, yes? Bring back old dmg, or even increase it further... Blizzard needs to realize that tey need to completely rebalance ultras now, they are completely different units, that were nerfed because of their old mechanics.
I agree completely. They nerfed the unit based on the old mechanics, and then changed the mechanics to fix a 'bug' (still not comfortable calling it that, it was really them having zero foresight).
Yeah, zero foresight, twice! First the LoL splashing when attacking command centers, and now the 0-splash when attacking large units.
Blizzard feared people would leave the game once terran had a singular weird disadvantage and something they had to work to prevent (like zergs have 50 things they need to scout and work on preventing), so a hot-fix within one week to get back adoration from terrans, but in the same process screwing over zerg. Shows how important the T playerbase is, when they get completely weird hot-fixes within days.
I wonder how the zerg campaign will be. Either there will be like waves of 3 marauders coming at you every 3 minutes, or blizzard will actually have to buff zerg, else everybody will whine that campaign is OP
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