As can be seen in the patch note discussion of this thread ultralisk splash damage was changed to fix a bug.
This so-called "bug-fix" isn't so much a fix as it is a huge nerf. The splash range was as blizzard intended, but the unit radius +2 from unit center rule got a bit too crazy once they allowed you to target buildings with it. Now they changed it to +2 from the front of the target which fixes the "bug" but effectively nerfs splash range against bigger sized units. Smaller units go largely unaffected. Tanks are also affected, but not as much as they are medium-sized.This last sentence is wrong. See edit on the bottom of this post.
Result?
Ultralisks are no longer a valid counter to Thors.
Here are some images to demonstrate (tested on burrowed ultras, as this was easier to test): + Show Spoiler +
Prepatch:
Post-patch:
Post-patch worst situation (easily achieved with minor micro in case of thors):
Tests in the unit tester conclude: - One thor barely beats one ultra with no micro. - Groups of more than 6-7 thors vs equal amount of ultras with no micro can win. The bigger the group the better. Focus fire significantly helps Thors as ultras are unable to do something similar. - Chances of thors winning significantly increase with chokes. Blocking a choke with thors is easy as they are big. - Worst finding: If you spread out your thors even a little bit, they will receive almost no splash. In this situation thors effectively counter ultras now. It gets worse if you also target fire.
Here's the result with proper focus fire and minor spreading (I only moved one thor forward a bit): + Show Spoiler +
Starting position:
Result:
Cool would not have won his tourney match with this patch. Not because SCVs won't die anymore when a PF gets attacked, but because Thors receive significantly less splash damage from ultras.
Fixing a bug with a nerf doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. Additional testing is recommended if anyone is up to it. I did not test much with upgrades, except for getting 6 armor on ultras and seeing how unupgraded thors still counter them if you spread micro. Also I only tested a little while on 1.1 before patching to 1.1.1.
Important edit:
Some additional research from Raketti in this post shows that it's worse than I thought. It seems splash got reduced for smaller units too.
My own short test concludes that I am able to hit a few more marines than on his picture (but still less than 1.1 I think) but it does indeed seem that siege tanks are affected similarly to thors. Siege tanks only seem smaller but the selection circle size is actually the same.
While the biggest impact is on large units like thors, the nerf actually seems to affect all units.
This an absolutely massive nerf to the Ultralisk's viability because even if the Terran was using 1 Thor, the Ultralisks could focus fire the Thor and splash the rest of the army.
I really think the unit is going to be largely abandoned in favor of Broods at this point. Either way, this was not what Zerg needed right now, and I think the community backlash is going to be huge.
Excellent pictures by the way, OP, illustrates the change perfectly.
On September 28 2010 19:53 dcemuser wrote: This an absolutely massive nerf to the Ultralisk's viability because even if the Terran was using 1 Thor, the Ultralisks could focus fire the Thor and splash the rest of the army.
I really think the unit is going to be largely abandoned in favor of Broods at this point. Either way, this was not what Zerg needed right now, and I think the community backlash is going to be huge.
Excellent pictures by the way, OP, illustrates the change perfectly.
Erm no - you can't fit enough ultras into the area to splash one thor into other thors. What would happen is each ultra hitting each thor would splash onto each surrounding thor, thus amplifying the effect.
Makes you wonder if Blizzard even tests their fixes before releasing them to the public. Going to be hard to counter thors now guess I'm going back to Burrow Roaches for Thors.
I really am mad how stupid Blizzard is about balance. This is only getting worse every patch. And what makes me explode is people claiming Thors are bad against ultras, just because TOP lost the battle vs Cool, when in fact: 1) he didnt micro at all, even before patch 12 Thors can easily win against 10 Ultras with some micro 2) Ultras now are even more useless, thanks to OP for showing this once again.
With +1 attack I think usual attacks were just as good. Either way this seems really silly. Could they not have changed the mechanic against buildings and left the unit mechanic alone? Seems they are able to seperate buildings from units when it comes to behavior as seen by the previous ram ability. Maybe just make 2 different attacks like before but make the building attack splash like this and the unit attack splash like pre 1.1.1. You won't have the sillyness of the PF but Ultras will still be able to counter thors nicely.
On September 28 2010 19:56 Toxiferous wrote: mass thor was not viable at a time? On small narrow maps a big group of 3/3 thors seem unstoppable without a flank from all sides as is
I guess you didn't see Cool's game, heh - Ultras were extremely good versus mass Thor.
the massive splash was obviously not intended. But it seemed to make the Ultralisk work better than it did without it and make it a really viable unit late game.
wow blizzard. thanks!! i really hated it to actually have a chance IF!! .. I F ! i made it to T3 mass ultras versus Terran. i'm so glad it's back to normal!!
On September 28 2010 19:53 dcemuser wrote: This an absolutely massive nerf to the Ultralisk's viability because even if the Terran was using 1 Thor, the Ultralisks could focus fire the Thor and splash the rest of the army.
I really think the unit is going to be largely abandoned in favor of Broods at this point. Either way, this was not what Zerg needed right now, and I think the community backlash is going to be huge.
Excellent pictures by the way, OP, illustrates the change perfectly.
Erm no - you can't fit enough ultras into the area to splash one thor into other thors. What would happen is each ultra hitting each thor would splash onto each surrounding thor, thus amplifying the effect.
No, I mean if you had, for example 3 Ultras attacking a Terran army with like 3 Tanks, 10 marines, and 1 Thor, then you could have the Ultras target the Thor and it would hit -everything- in the Terran's army. If you targeted the Marines, you would hit barely anything.
On September 28 2010 19:56 Toxiferous wrote: mass thor was not viable at a time? On small narrow maps a big group of 3/3 thors seem unstoppable without a flank from all sides as is
I guess you didn't see Cool's game, heh - Ultras were extremely good versus mass Thor.
I think you forgot to read the rest of my post, thors not being flanked already seemed to chop into ultras cost effetively, especially with a little micro
On September 28 2010 19:53 dcemuser wrote: This an absolutely massive nerf to the Ultralisk's viability because even if the Terran was using 1 Thor, the Ultralisks could focus fire the Thor and splash the rest of the army.
I really think the unit is going to be largely abandoned in favor of Broods at this point. Either way, this was not what Zerg needed right now, and I think the community backlash is going to be huge.
Excellent pictures by the way, OP, illustrates the change perfectly.
Erm no - you can't fit enough ultras into the area to splash one thor into other thors. What would happen is each ultra hitting each thor would splash onto each surrounding thor, thus amplifying the effect.
No, I mean if you had, for example 3 Ultras attacking a Terran army with like 3 Tanks, 10 marines, and 1 Thor, then you could have the Ultras target the Thor and it would hit -everything- in the Terran's army. If you targeted the Marines, you would hit barely anything.
Yes, that part is true, but that part is also because hitting the Thor would do the 35 damage instead of 15. That makes a huge difference compared to hitting the marines for 15.
Attacking the tanks has almost the same effect.
Regardless - I guess they made the ultra splash like Cleave in Warcraft 3.
On September 28 2010 19:56 Toxiferous wrote: mass thor was not viable at a time? On small narrow maps a big group of 3/3 thors seem unstoppable without a flank from all sides as is
I guess you didn't see Cool's game, heh - Ultras were extremely good versus mass Thor.
I think you forgot to read the rest of my post, thors not being flanked already seemed to chop into ultras cost effetively, especially with a little micro
In an extremely small choke, with very good unit spread (and I mean VERY good, the splash was huge), Thors would win. In a head-on battle, Thors loss. Flanked? Thors lose. All of those situations now say "Thors win".
On September 28 2010 19:56 Toxiferous wrote: mass thor was not viable at a time? On small narrow maps a big group of 3/3 thors seem unstoppable without a flank from all sides as is
I guess you didn't see Cool's game, heh - Ultras were extremely good versus mass Thor.
I think you forgot to read the rest of my post, thors not being flanked already seemed to chop into ultras cost effetively, especially with a little micro
Plus, in the most deciding battle lots of TOPs Thors attacked zerglings as he had close to zero hellions.
This change seems ridiculous, can't wait to see it in live action or when i play myself...
I have a feeling that the nerf to "vs armoured" damage was because they chopped through thors too quickly. This makes the ultra such a sucky unit :-\ What a pity
for me personally SC1 and now SC2 have never been games were players at pro-level should be supposed to build one type of units agains one other type of units. Simple Thor > Ultra or Ultra > Thor is stpid imo. It requires no skill to micro and it isnt even cool to watch. And dont have an answer to what Z can do other than mass ultra but making Ultras so strong that they simply kill everything without being hurt is not a viable solution for a competitive game.
what is mroe sad is, that blizzard never reverts cahnges they made, so we will probably be stuck with the damaga and splash nerf, although i think only 1 of those two would be enough :X
On September 28 2010 20:07 Sewi wrote: for me personally SC1 and now SC2 have never been games were players at pro-level should be supposed to build one type of units agains one other type of units. Simple Thor > Ultra or Ultra > Thor is stpid imo. It requires no skill to micro and it isnt even cool to watch. And dont have an answer to what Z can do other than mass ultra but making Ultras so strong that they simply kill everything without being hurt is not a viable solution for a competitive game.
Which makes it perfectly fine for thors to counter both mutalisks (Yes they counter them cost for cost even with magic box, saying otherwise is downright stupid) and Ultras at the same time (Although not hard counters but you get the point)
This change blows my mind. I'm starting to wonder if Blizzard really WANTS people to play Zerg... I mean, it's not very beginner friendly, there's practically no Zerg instructions, and the Zerg challenges (especially the Infestation) was of limited use ingame. :/
So i'm a zerg player and while this annoys me a bit people seem to take things out of context.
As a zerg its about unit combination. If your just attacking with ultras as a damaging unit and focusing on how bad it does on its own isnt this out of context?
Im not sure but what would be better? 2 ultras attacking into a group or 1 ultra + 300/200 worth of banelings attacking into a group?
I'm a bit unsure if i should post this as people could technically pick me apart but im just saying i dont think ultras are broken they just arnt a build a heap and a move win anymore. They may be turning into a defensive unit rather then an offensive unit for example?
On September 28 2010 20:12 KristianJS wrote: It sucks that Blizzard keeps responding to stuff by nerfing shit. They'd be better off making other units better sometimes instead T_T
Oh they're doing that too. Buffing terrans and nerfing zergs. Best of both worlds .
On September 28 2010 20:10 Firesemi wrote: So i'm a zerg player and while this annoys me a bit people seem to take things out of context.
As a zerg its about unit combination. If your just attacking with ultras as a damaging unit and focusing on how bad it does on its own isnt this out of context?
Im not sure but what would be better? 2 ultras attacking into a group or 1 ultra + 300/200 worth of banelings attacking into a group?
I'm a bit unsure if i should post this as people could technically pick me apart but im just saying i dont think ultras are broken they just arnt a build a heap and a move win anymore. They may be turning into a defensive unit rather then an offensive unit for example?
Against Thors/Armored? Ultras all the way.
Problem ist that Zerg lacks a counter to Metal, Ultralisk was that Counter, Ultralisk is now weaker. Zergling don't work because a few Igniter-Hellions completly nullify them.
If Roaches or Hydras would work this wouldn't be that troublesome, but they don't....
I'm pretty sure this is how ultras were before the patch? I don't recall units behind the primary target being hit pre 1.1. The bug was too much in my humble opinion and needed to be fixed.
If the zerg players feel they need bugged units to win games then this is indeed depressing.
Don't 250mm Cannons completely rape Ultralisks? I've been off the scene for a while now, but i remember games where Terrans would see Ultralisks on the way, they'd just get the upgrade and, with support, deny most of their damage.
This might be a nerf, but at the same time I think this is how the AoE should work. I'm not sure if this changes ultra's beast status, but if they are weak after the change I'm sure next patch will include a buff to their dmg again.
Edit:
On September 28 2010 20:18 soultwister wrote: Don't 250mm Cannons completely rape Ultralisks? I've been off the scene for a while now, but i remember games where Terrans would see Ultralisks on the way, they'd just get the upgrade and, with support, deny most of their damage.
Not really, 250mm was awesome when it stunned the ultra, but now that ultras are immune to the stun, it barely does better than just the normal attack of the thor.
On September 28 2010 20:18 soultwister wrote: Don't 250mm Cannons completely rape Ultralisks? I've been off the scene for a while now, but i remember games where Terrans would see Ultralisks on the way, they'd just get the upgrade and, with support, deny most of their damage.
Since the stun doesn't work anymore, no it doesn't. Although it is not a bad choice in some situations probably.
On September 28 2010 20:17 kasumimi wrote: I'm pretty sure this is how ultras were before the patch? I don't recall units behind the primary target being hit pre 1.1. The bug was too much in my humble opinion and needed to be fixed.
If the zerg players feel they need bugged units to win games then this is indeed depressing.
That's the whole point I think, tho I haven't tested it myself yet. Instead of just fixing the ultra vs buildings and keeping ultras against units the way they were before 1.1, they nerfed ultras vs units in the process with this fix.
I'm pretty sure this is how ultras were before the patch? I don't recall units behind the primary target being hit pre 1.1. The bug was too much in my humble opinion and needed to be fixed.
Kid have u read anything the OP posted? Or did u just see "Ultralisks dont counter THor"?
Watch the pictures and dont be so damn igorant, its so obvious -.-*
Oh and btw all those Terrans claiming 250mm cannons are not effectiv against Zerg... U just need to make more than just A-moving and using the cannons. Try to make a block with hellions -.-*
On September 28 2010 20:17 kasumimi wrote: I'm pretty sure this is how ultras were before the patch? I don't recall units behind the primary target being hit pre 1.1.
No. Ultra splash has extended by unit radius since alpha. Look at the screenshots, man.
On September 28 2010 20:17 kasumimi wrote: The bug was too much in my humble opinion and needed to be fixed. If the zerg players feel they need bugged units to win games then this is indeed depressing.
There was no bug, there was never a bug. They applied the STANDARD ULTRA SPLASH to buildings, which are large enough to make the Ultra splash hit SCVs. That's their standard behavior.
Give Zergs a bug by mistake and they will take it as buff for Ultra and now whe its fixed they cant live without it. It was just a programming mistype thats all. Think about it like it never happen.
On September 28 2010 19:56 Toxiferous wrote: mass thor was not viable at a time? On small narrow maps a big group of 3/3 thors seem unstoppable without a flank from all sides as is
I guess you didn't see Cool's game, heh - Ultras were extremely good versus mass Thor.
i don't know what you were watchin mate, but those thors ALMOST beat the ultra's, cool only won because he could afford to lose them and just instantly replace them, whereas the terran did not have this option in relation to his own thor count.
more importantly, dont make this thread into another "Cool won because of X" arguement.
I am very happy with Ultra nerf, they were too strong compared to other units anyways... Oh wait now where is the Zerg buff to counteract this nerf? It's in the patch notes right... WHERE IS IT?!?!?
This is huge. The only reason Terran mech has to push out instead of just turtling forever is because they can't let you have too many ultralisks (like cool did). Now the thors can just wait as long as they want since they beat ultras in equal resources/food. That also means a 200/200 mech ball is now literarily unbeatable.
k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors. the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed) in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf.
hahaha. blizzard fucked it up biiiiiig time. i ran some test in the unit tester map. bio balls get randomly splashed, sometimes 2 behind the target next hit none, next hit 3 left, shit like that, i don't get it
On September 28 2010 20:22 ch4ppi wrote:Oh and btw all those Terrans claiming 250mm cannons are not effectiv against Zerg... U just need to make more than just A-moving and using the cannons. Try to make a block with hellions -.-*
I recommend you trying 250mm. With 1+ upgraded wpns, thor does very similar dmg vs ultra as 250mm. Not only that but 250mm is not as efficient if your units attack the ultra while the 250mm is going on. Therefor it's much more efficient to just focus fire the ultras down with all your units rather than try force 250mm. This has been the case for a long time, just when it also stunned the ultra, it effectively killed the ultra when the cannon started(since it makes it incapable to deal dmg), while without the stun, it requires the full duration(i'm not saying it's UP, just that you are in byfar most cases better off autoattacking).
Blocking ultras away from thors is good no matter 250mm or not. So in the end, you're much better off just focus firing the ultras down rather than waste APM trying to be fancy.
Please look at the fight at 5:08 and tell me this is the same splash that ultras had in 1.1.
Because they are attacking marines and marauders, small units. Did you read the thread even a little?
Did you even look at the vid? Some ultras get hits on Thors and nothing receives damage 3 boxes behind it.
The ultras get 2 attacks on the tank and the units behind the tank get damaged some. It gets one attack on the thor before dying and the units behind the thor get damaged.
On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote: k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors. the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed) in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
roach and hydra are the choice to deal with thors when we don't have ultra, which means we are in tier 2 and T doesnt have 10 thors + 5 tank.
Please look at the fight at 5:08 and tell me this is the same splash that ultras had in 1.1.
Because they are attacking marines and marauders, small units. Did you read the thread even a little?
Did you even look at the vid? Some ultras get hits on Thors and nothing receives damage 3 boxes behind it.
No, it's the same. Most Ultras were dead when they reached the tank, and those few who did did the usual splash damage they also did in 1.1. All they did in 1.1 is apply the Ultra splah to buildings.
On September 28 2010 20:34 anotherone wrote: Give Zergs a bug by mistake and they will take it as buff for Ultra and now whe its fixed they cant live without it. It was just a programming mistype thats all. Think about it like it never happen.
It was more like this:
Patch 1.1: Blizz removes ram from ultralisks and they will use their regular attack on buildings. Community: Wow, this attack is OP when attacking buildings. Patch 1.1.1: Blizz nerfs the attack both against buildings and against units.
On September 28 2010 20:40 lovewithlea wrote: hahaha. blizzard fucked it up biiiiiig time. i ran some test in the unit tester map. bio balls get randomly splashed, sometimes 2 behind the target next hit none, next hit 3 left, shit like that, i don't get it
It's not random, the radius starts from a point offset from where the Ultralisk is facing from. If Ultralisk kills a unit he targets another unit and his facing angle changes thus the position of damage changes. To be honest, it's kind of logical.
On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote: k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors. the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed) in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf.
Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter.
Myea, quitting on ultras, their damage is the same as changeling damage now, just tested in some 1v1's and team games, even with micro + zerglings + benalings, they are useless...
Think of this, terrans can now use planetary fortress + a few support for benalings and farm to 0 a gold area, until u get 1 broodlord in the sky using 50 million expansions...
One of the most expensive units in the game, that is a melee unit (vs all other T4 units that are all ranged, and needs to get close to actually do even 1 damage) just got nearfed out of existence. I pity someone who actually will use them now, they will just waste money for the equivalent of a changeling or 3-4 zergling damage.
"Blizzard is hiring"
"We are looking for active people with experience in the gaming industry for testing our future patches. Please send us your CV. If u worked as a Toilet Cleaner, it's considered a + and will be hired instantaneously. Also having practiced jobs like staring at porn download rates as a job in our ever growing company"
On September 28 2010 20:34 kasumimi wrote: Please look at the fight at 5:08 and tell me this is the same splash that ultras had in 1.1.
At 5:22, there is an interesting point where an Ultra hits a Thor once and the splash only seems to hit 1 thor next to it, but 1 hit isn't enough to move most of those units HP bars.
I'd be interested in seeing more pre-1.1 Ultra splash on Thors and other large units (Ultra v Ultra and Ultra v Colossus is fine).
Edit: Nevermind, an Ultra attack at 5:18 on a siege tank splashes a Thor 2 units behind it. Definitely still extended by unit radius.
for me the ultra cleave pre 1.0 was redicules feel happy to punch me to bits well and dont cry ultras are nerfed tehy are at there point were they should be instead of i have ultras i win -.-
On September 28 2010 20:34 anotherone wrote: Give Zergs a bug by mistake and they will take it as buff for Ultra and now whe its fixed they cant live without it. It was just a programming mistype thats all. Think about it like it never happen.
It was more like this:
Patch 1.1: Blizz removes ram from ultralisks and they will use their regular attack on buildings. Community: Wow, this attack is OP when attacking buildings. Patch 1.1.1: Blizz nerfs the attack both against buildings and against units.
This results in a ultralisk nerf against units.
Exactly. The splash was OP against buildings, so they just decided to make the splash suck.
I'm pretty sure this is how ultras were before the patch? I don't recall units behind the primary target being hit pre 1.1. The bug was too much in my humble opinion and needed to be fixed.
Kid have u read anything the OP posted? Or did u just see "Ultralisks dont counter THor"?
Watch the pictures and dont be so damn igorant, its so obvious -.-*
Oh and btw all those Terrans claiming 250mm cannons are not effectiv against Zerg... U just need to make more than just A-moving and using the cannons. Try to make a block with hellions -.-*
the whole point of 250 MM cannons was to stun and destory the ultras but without the stun their regular attack when fully upgraded is better anyways cuz you can micro the thors while dishing out 90 damage per 2 attacks. and hellions blocking ultralisks works for about 2 seconds and then there isnt much to kill the flawk of zerglings that usually come in right after the ultras A move into your mechs.
250 MM cannon needs soemthing new because right now it simply serves to make thors really crappy vs protoss's High Templar's. Ideally they would still be good at killing CCs/Hatchs/Nexus' but marauders prove to do that job better. i think the 250 MM cannon should just be an ability like blink except with a very very long cooldown like say 5 minutes or so cuz the energy just makes thors extremely weak.
On September 28 2010 20:34 anotherone wrote: Give Zergs a bug by mistake and they will take it as buff for Ultra and now whe its fixed they cant live without it. It was just a programming mistype thats all. Think about it like it never happen.
how about use ur damn brain if u have one they removed ram attack and not give zerg a bug, this remove made ultras use their normal attack on building, which had to big range to fix this problem they nerfed ultras normal attack IT IS A NERF NOT A BUG FIX they didnt fix anything but nerf the normal attack agains units
i am feeling bad for zerg, so glad i switched from zerg to protoss back in beta when the rediculous mass nerf agains zerg started
sometimes i wonder how stupid some people at blizzard are atleast we get chatchannels in this year
On September 28 2010 20:48 clusen wrote: This is so stupid, but fits perfectly to the patchhistory since beta, when MM-upgrades were buffed for no reason at all.
I guess next will be Broodlords, they just move too fast right now and you can't counter them with Thor and Marines.
dude u gotta remember Terran was SOOOO weak early on in the beta. the constant buffs to get them up to date with protoss and zerg was just slightly overdone calm yourself bro. the game is so young.
I might get warned or banned for this but the post for which I got perma-banned at the battle.net forums seems to now come true...
Ban Type: Obscene Language Expires: () Ban Reason: This shows how it is all f4ggotly orchestrated that queeerf4ggots can feel good about themselves with Terran. Hahaha, keep giving them lollipops blizzard, another game or life in general will hit hard with the facts HAHHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHA
Maybe Activision/Blizzard just wants american kids to feel good about themselves? Or maybe they just want to display Terran (America) as the "good" opposed to Zerg ("The bad") It smells like that sooooo bad... Because some Terran units are really Texan and they even added farting noises when clicking zerglings more than 3 times (at least in the beta)
Well it's a pity for them that they are hypnotised in thinking America is "the good" and it will only create more lamentable fear psychosis... Not my karma!
P.S. Reading my perma-ban again and again gives me so much relief... I hope more zerg players will find comfort in it and I hope arrogant over-confident Terran players will have their illusionary skill hypnosis broken.
On September 28 2010 20:34 kasumimi wrote: Please look at the fight at 5:08 and tell me this is the same splash that ultras had in 1.1.
At 5:22, there is an interesting point where an Ultra hits a Thor once and the splash only seems to hit 1 thor next to it, but 1 hit isn't enough to move most of those units HP bars.
I'd be interested in seeing more pre-1.1 Ultra splash on Thors and other large units (Ultra v Ultra and Ultra v Colossus is fine).
Edit: Nevermind, an Ultra attack at 5:18 on a siege tank splashes a Thor 2 units behind it. Definitely still extended by unit radius.
It's so hard to tell what's going on really with just the crappy HP bars, you sort of need to look at the replay.
blizzard are working on buffing zerg, but that doesn't mean that in the meantime they can't fix the overpowered ultra splash.
the zerg race needs changes accross the board. easier scouting, mobile/smaller hydras, more practical ultralisks. zerg do not need a 50 mile splash range on ultralisks.
Patch 1.1: Blizz removes ram from ultralisks and they will use their regular attack on buildings. Community: Wow, this attack is OP when attacking buildings. Patch 1.1.1: Blizz nerfs the attack both against buildings and against units.
This results in a ultralisk nerf against units.
C'mon. it was a bug (I play Z and I think it was just laughable how SCVs would just explode into oblivion while trying to repair a Command Center). Removing the bug wasn't a "nerf", but it turned into exactly how the text in the quote states.
For the first time I'm actually thinking of starting to play random...
OMG , this has to be the worse patch fix ever. It was obvious the splash on buildings was obsurd , but this overall patch makes Ultras even worse than they were before ... it'd be better if Blizzard didn't even touch the Ram ability in the first place.
One could only imagine the look on Cool's face when he saw the Patch.
On September 28 2010 20:48 clusen wrote: This is so stupid, but fits perfectly to the patchhistory since beta, when MM-upgrades were buffed for no reason at all.
I guess next will be Broodlords, they just move too fast right now and you can't counter them with Thor and Marines.
dude u gotta remember Terran was SOOOO weak early on in the beta. the constant buffs to get them up to date with protoss and zerg was just slightly overdone calm yourself bro. the game is so young.
It was more of a matter than terran didn't know how to play. A lot of the strongest strategies involve only units that didn't get massive buffs. MMM PvT. Reaper, thor, banshee. Meanwhile a lot of sc1 players chose zerg and it was developed very quickly along with being a more simple race in general.
On September 28 2010 20:57 Crit wrote: C'mon. it was a bug (I play Z and I think it was just laughable how SCVs would just explode into oblivion while trying to repair a Command Center). Removing the bug wasn't a "nerf", but it turned into exactly how the text in the quote states.
For the first time I'm actually thinking of starting to play random...
Honestly, it shouldn't be viewed as a "bug". It's just applying the standard Ultra attack to buildings. The fact the splash increases by unit size has been there since beta... so if they wanted to apply the regular Ultra attack to buildings, that should have been the first thing the designers thought of.
1.0 ultralisk attacks splash around targetted unit 1.1 ultralisk attack damage lowered based on figures in 1.0 1.1.1 ultralisk attacks splash from ultralisk now instead
1.2 ultralisk attack damage increased because Blizzard were unaware about the splash damage around targetted unit in 1.0
Ok it does makes sense for the splash damage to originate from the ultralisk but for Zerg to end up with a nerf of this calliber is really depressing. Damage nerf + splash damage nerf. I really hope they up the radius and/or damage again soon.
I have question though about the splash damage: Does the splash damage from the ultra originate from a point in front of the ultra (A) or is it ultralisk size/surface +2 range for 180 degrees (B).
On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote: k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors. the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed) in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf.
Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter.
And hydras are fucking terrible.
hydras are not terribel and roaches en mass are excellent vs mech in general let alone just thors. with the nerf to siege tanks hydras get 3 shotted by tanks now instead of 2 shotted which means they ahve gained alot of use now against mech simply because they have just as much survivability as roaches against siege fire. and hydras range and DPS is far from horrible. hardly anyones been taking advantage of the fact that hydras are now as durable as roaches against siege tanks. and hellions arent good against roaches really at all if you have hydras in close proximity to them so the hydras kill the hellions anytime they try to do any sort of kiting and it takes forever to kill a single roach with a bunch of hellions. ultralisks are not the prime counter to thors as while thors are armored they do insane dps to single targets and ultras generall dont come in huge numbers. massed roaches however is difficult for the thors to kill all of and if you throw in the hydras dps behind the roaches you waste thors np given the situation goes right after all micro and macro are important in all scenarios.
the thor is the mech unit of choice against the ultralisk otherwise the only prime units would be marauders which are barracks units and barracks units arent deployed when going mech or air units....
Hilarious how much fail Blizzard is. When Blizzard nerfed Zerg in the beta, they did it by making drastic changes, that mostly led to the unit or the ability being useless.
For example NP nerf was a joke that led to no one ever using it again. The roach nerf to 2 to 1. The removal of a useful ability of the corruptor (the earlier spell was actually useful).
I was gonna post about how I was worried that if Blizzard tried to fix the Ultra vs PF bug, they would do it by render Ultras useless again. And today the patch came, and Blizzard actually managed to destroy the only viable unit Zerg has for armored units. THis is a disgrace Blizzard.
On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote: k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors. the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed) in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf.
Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter.
And hydras are fucking terrible.
hydras are not terribel and roaches en mass are excellent vs mech in general let alone just thors. with the nerf to siege tanks hydras get 3 shotted by tanks now instead of 2 shotted which means they ahve gained alot of use now against mech simply because they have just as much survivability as roaches against siege fire. and hydras range and DPS is far from horrible. hardly anyones been taking advantage of the fact that hydras are now as durable as roaches against siege tanks. and hellions arent good against roaches really at all if you have hydras in close proximity to them so the hydras kill the hellions anytime they try to do any sort of kiting and it takes forever to kill a single roach with a bunch of hellions. ultralisks are not the prime counter to thors as while thors are armored they do insane dps to single targets and ultras generall dont come in huge numbers. massed roaches however is difficult for the thors to kill all of and if you throw in the hydras dps behind the roaches you waste thors np given the situation goes right after all micro and macro are important in all scenarios.
the thor is the mech unit of choice against the ultralisk otherwise the only prime units would be marauders which are barracks units and barracks units arent deployed when going mech or air units....
No. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. If ultras are not good vs thors then there is no counter to thors supported by hellions against zerglings and just a small amount of tanks against roach/hydra.
On September 28 2010 21:00 Croz wrote: I have question though about the splash damage: Does the splash damage from the ultra originate from a point in front of the ultra (A) or is it ultralisk size/surface +2 range for 180 degrees (B).
Edit: I misunderstood your question. You are referring to the 1.1.1 splash damage. I believe that now the splash is Figure A, in line with all other splashing units.
On September 28 2010 21:00 Croz wrote: 1.0 ultralisk attacks splash around targetted unit 1.1 ultralisk attack damage lowered based on figures in 1.0 1.1.1 ultralisk attacks splash from ultralisk now instead
1.2 ultralisk attack damage increased because Blizzard were unaware about the splash damage around targetted unit in 1.0
Ok it does makes sense for the splash damage to originate from the ultralisk but for Zerg to end up with a nerf of this calliber is really depressing. Damage nerf + splash damage nerf. I really hope they up the radius and/or damage again soon.
I have question though about the splash damage: Does the splash damage from the ultra originate from a point in front of the ultra (A) or is it ultralisk size/surface +2 range for 180 degrees (B).
I don't understand how pokeballs are related to ultralisk splash
On September 28 2010 20:49 Liquid`Ret wrote: this is really ridiculous. nothing counters thors anymore
ret mate. your so wrong.
the counter to thors is more thors.
so all zerg has to do.........oh...wait.
im not even pissed anymore, Its just amusing by now ^^ Oh well, dling Mafia 2 atm, anyone got some tips on other good laid back Single Player games?
I already moved on to Civ5. I was hoping to play Starcraft 2 for months before possible getting bored but looks like the game is just crap at the moment and I will need to come back in few months.
On September 28 2010 20:56 hoovehand wrote: blizzard are working on buffing zerg, but that doesn't mean that in the meantime they can't fix the overpowered ultra splash.
the zerg race needs changes accross the board. easier scouting, mobile/smaller hydras, more practical ultralisks. zerg do not need a 50 mile splash range on ultralisks.
Actually, an Ultralisk was the only fun-OP-ish unit that Zerg had, now there's nothing. Exept perhaps for Broodlords, but still both of those are a LONG way down. Zerg's just not fun.
On September 28 2010 20:48 clusen wrote: This is so stupid, but fits perfectly to the patchhistory since beta, when MM-upgrades were buffed for no reason at all.
I guess next will be Broodlords, they just move too fast right now and you can't counter them with Thor and Marines.
dude u gotta remember Terran was SOOOO weak early on in the beta. the constant buffs to get them up to date with protoss and zerg was just slightly overdone calm yourself bro. the game is so young.
It was more of a matter than terran didn't know how to play. A lot of the strongest strategies involve only units that didn't get massive buffs. MMM PvT. Reaper, thor, banshee. Meanwhile a lot of sc1 players chose zerg and it was developed very quickly along with being a more simple race in general.
nobody knew how to play early in the beta.... and all the sc1 pros were eithe rplaying ranodm or wer't really being known of or being watched at that point... and all those units did get massive buffs primarily to their upgrades, build times and how they dished out damage minus the banshee. and zerg isn't really a simple race when thinking about drone management. and zerg wasn't really solved. people just did roach hydra every single matchup until a few nerfs forced them to start thinking about banelings, mutas and infestors. and the only really good sc1 pro that played zerg that was known of at the time was idra and thats it. otherwise tester played protoss and wasnt really watched until way later on in the beta.
-Removed the unit "Ultralisk" from the zerg race and have replaced it with the Roach having its size doubled.
"we felt that the ultralisk wasn't doing its job as intended, so we decided to remove it from the game. however we know that many zerg players will be unhappy with that change so we are increasing the roaches unit size, we feel that should make the zerg army look bigger, and will prevent the "OP" flooding into chokes that we believe is breaking the game."
"we have also heard rumours that there are problems with Terran being "OP", we have taken the initiative to program a new "Forum Bot". it will serve as a automated admin that will remove any such foolish allegations that are posted on the battle.net forums. we will not stand for such ignorant opinions."
On September 28 2010 21:00 Croz wrote: I have question though about the splash damage: Does the splash damage from the ultra originate from a point in front of the ultra (A) or is it ultralisk size/surface +2 range for 180 degrees (B).
Edit: I misunderstood your question. You are referring to the 1.1.1 splash damage. I believe that now the splash is Figure A, in line with all other splashing units.
On September 28 2010 21:00 Croz wrote: 1.0 ultralisk attacks splash around targetted unit 1.1 ultralisk attack damage lowered based on figures in 1.0 1.1.1 ultralisk attacks splash from ultralisk now instead
1.2 ultralisk attack damage increased because Blizzard were unaware about the splash damage around targetted unit in 1.0
Ok it does makes sense for the splash damage to originate from the ultralisk but for Zerg to end up with a nerf of this calliber is really depressing. Damage nerf + splash damage nerf. I really hope they up the radius and/or damage again soon.
I have question though about the splash damage: Does the splash damage from the ultra originate from a point in front of the ultra (A) or is it ultralisk size/surface +2 range for 180 degrees (B).
EDIT: Nothing, just saw the other two pokéballs and understood the splash.
On September 28 2010 21:09 deth2munkies wrote: ITT: People crying about not being able to exploit an obviously unintended bug in game mechanics.
Seriously, now you can't use a bug as a crutch and have your enemies use it as an excuse, you should be thanking them.
If it's a bug, it's existed since alpha, and all Ultralisk balance has been based around this bug. If Blizzard intends to fix the bug now, they MUST compenstate the Ultralisk in some other way, or it's going to fall out of use quickly.
On September 28 2010 21:00 Croz wrote: 1.0 ultralisk attacks splash around targetted unit 1.1 ultralisk attack damage lowered based on figures in 1.0 1.1.1 ultralisk attacks splash from ultralisk now instead
1.2 ultralisk attack damage increased because Blizzard were unaware about the splash damage around targetted unit in 1.0
Ok it does makes sense for the splash damage to originate from the ultralisk but for Zerg to end up with a nerf of this calliber is really depressing. Damage nerf + splash damage nerf. I really hope they up the radius and/or damage again soon.
I have question though about the splash damage: Does the splash damage from the ultra originate from a point in front of the ultra (A) or is it ultralisk size/surface +2 range for 180 degrees (B).
I thought the splash damage originated from the victim of the ultra's attack? Like the PF with SCV:s repairing it?
Epic poké balls btw
That's what this post is about... They nerfed it to "A".
On September 28 2010 21:09 deth2munkies wrote: ITT: People crying about not being able to exploit an obviously unintended bug in game mechanics.
Seriously, now you can't use a bug as a crutch and have your enemies use it as an excuse, you should be thanking them.
Uh, you apparently don't know what this thread is about. Nobody is bitching about the splash radius on buildings being fixed. Get a clue before you flame people. This is a bigger problem then the one before.
On September 28 2010 21:09 deth2munkies wrote: ITT: People crying about not being able to exploit an obviously unintended bug in game mechanics.
Seriously, now you can't use a bug as a crutch and have your enemies use it as an excuse, you should be thanking them.
If it's a bug, it's existed since alpha, and all Ultralisk balance has been based around this bug. If Blizzard intends to fix the bug now, they MUST compenstate the Ultralisk in some other way, or it's going to fall out of use quickly.
No, it's not. It came with the last patch, and it was a huge increase in splash. Now it's back down to where it was in the beta and before.
Honestly, it shouldn't be viewed as a "bug". It's just applying the standard Ultra attack to buildings. The fact the splash increases by unit size has been there since beta... so if they wanted to apply the regular Ultra attack to buildings, that should have been the first thing the designers thought of.
Agreed, the word 'bug' is a bit wrong... this guy said it better than I did:
On September 28 2010 20:58 john0507 wrote: It was obvious the splash on buildings was obsurd , but this overall patch makes Ultras even worse than they were before ... it'd be better if Blizzard didn't even touch the Ram ability in the first place.
The topic splash damage is pretty interesting here. I never thought about it and didnt know how it really works.
One mentioned the cleaving attack from warcraft 3 and I remember it playin the custom map Footmen Frenzy. The ability was insane vs small units and wos pretty useless against the big taurens.
My Question here is how splash should be intended to work in rts games with all the complex things like angles, different unit sizes or attack speed?
So what would be the appropriate splash mechanic for the ultralisk?
I dont care about the balance topic right now and what counters the thor. Despite that sideeffekt how should the ultralisks splash ability look like?
On September 28 2010 21:13 EL_Klingerado wrote: The topic splash damage is pretty interesting here. I never thought about it and didnt know how it really works.
One mentioned the cleaving attack from warcraft 3 and I remember it playin the custom map Footmen Frenzy. The ability was insane vs small units and wos pretty useless against the big taurens.
My Question here is how splash should be intended to work in rts games with all the complex things like angles, different unit sizes or attack speed?
So what would be the appropriate splash mechanic for the ultralisk?
I dont care about the balance topic right now and what counters the thor. Despite that sideeffekt how should the ultralisks splash ability look like?
I mentioned cleave - but I played DoTA and the cleave seems like the cleave in there (minus the damage reduction).
Guys, this got me worried about Fruit dealer. He seem to not catch up quickly enough on the patch nerfs to zerg. Remember that he today after the patch was still sockfolding even though Blizzard just patched it out of the game.
This indicate that he does not know about Blizzard making Ultras useless again, and he might try to build them in his semi final, and he will then lose.
This is bad news, I really hope someone enlighten him that Blizzard just removed Ultras from the game, so he doesnt try to rush them to counter thors or anything?
LOL, I cant stop thinking about how clueless Blizzard are... THey are even doing these crazy retarded patches just in the final stages of GSL...
On September 28 2010 21:12 deth2munkies wrote: No, it's not. It came with the last patch, and it was a huge increase in splash. Now it's back down to where it was in the beta and before.
I am open to seeing proof of this, but the video posted earlier looks pretty damning. A siege tank splashes a Thor a huge distance away, and that was on patch 1.0.
I really think the devs over there have something agsint zerg.
Its ok that stimmed marauders or DTs can take out a base in seconds, but if zerg can do it, its a hotfix worthy bug? This is a "fuck you" of epic proportions.
On September 28 2010 20:51 Raiznhell wrote: dude u gotta remember Terran was SOOOO weak early on in the beta. the constant buffs to get them up to date with protoss and zerg was just slightly overdone calm yourself bro. the game is so young.
I know, I played Terran most of the beta before i switched to R/Z, but MMM was never underpowered. Units like Tanks were before the splash change, and they got fixed.
On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote: k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors. the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed) in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf.
Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter.
And hydras are fucking terrible.
hydras are not terribel and roaches en mass are excellent vs mech in general let alone just thors. with the nerf to siege tanks hydras get 3 shotted by tanks now instead of 2 shotted which means they ahve gained alot of use now against mech simply because they have just as much survivability as roaches against siege fire. and hydras range and DPS is far from horrible. hardly anyones been taking advantage of the fact that hydras are now as durable as roaches against siege tanks. and hellions arent good against roaches really at all if you have hydras in close proximity to them so the hydras kill the hellions anytime they try to do any sort of kiting and it takes forever to kill a single roach with a bunch of hellions. ultralisks are not the prime counter to thors as while thors are armored they do insane dps to single targets and ultras generall dont come in huge numbers. massed roaches however is difficult for the thors to kill all of and if you throw in the hydras dps behind the roaches you waste thors np given the situation goes right after all micro and macro are important in all scenarios.
the thor is the mech unit of choice against the ultralisk otherwise the only prime units would be marauders which are barracks units and barracks units arent deployed when going mech or air units....
No. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. If ultras are not good vs thors then there is no counter to thors supported by hellions against zerglings and just a small amount of tanks against roach/hydra.
well then i guess you dont watch how top level players deal with mech then :/ as mass roach is pretty much the best way to deal with mech until alot of siege tanks are deployed in which ultras are gotten out to counter the siege lines but against pure thor/ hellion with a dash of tanks mass roach is the counter as a dash of tanks having to 3 shot roaches doesnt add up to mucha nd hellions dont do crap against the high roach hp. i mean obviously mass roache isn't going to steamroll mass thors but it's a cost effective army trades and while macroing good you come out way on top because zerg can resupply mass roach exetremely faster than terran can resupply mass thor. there was a game in the beta that was an example of your type of thinking. cellawerra was playing a guy named "slayersboxer" but not the real slayersboxer and the guy went mass thor and hellion, and cellawerra went mass roach and was being very cost effective until he decided to switch into mutas and then into ultralisks which costed him the game.
it's clear that thors obvious counter is in lots of units in general as thors do insane damage but only to single targets and at a slow rate. when simple common sense is applied the first thought counter is zergling sbut they get roasted by hellions so you move up to roaches which can kill both thors and hellions cost effectively when massed plus they can burrow move whenever terran doesnt have a raven or tower around. when you watch players like artosis and idra when dealing with lots of siege tanks they go ultra but when dealing with lots of thors and helliosn they usually go mass roach with infestors supprt to neural a few tanks here and there. you saying i dont have a clue is rude and ignorant and you shoudl really pay more attantion to hwo the higher level players act before randomly bashing people in forums. and because siege tanks now need to three shot hydras they are much much mroe useful so you should rethink the idea that they suck. their only weakspot now is that they are kinda slow.
On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote: k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors. the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed) in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf.
Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter.
And hydras are fucking terrible.
hydras are not terribel and roaches en mass are excellent vs mech in general let alone just thors. with the nerf to siege tanks hydras get 3 shotted by tanks now instead of 2 shotted which means they ahve gained alot of use now against mech simply because they have just as much survivability as roaches against siege fire. and hydras range and DPS is far from horrible. hardly anyones been taking advantage of the fact that hydras are now as durable as roaches against siege tanks. and hellions arent good against roaches really at all if you have hydras in close proximity to them so the hydras kill the hellions anytime they try to do any sort of kiting and it takes forever to kill a single roach with a bunch of hellions. ultralisks are not the prime counter to thors as while thors are armored they do insane dps to single targets and ultras generall dont come in huge numbers. massed roaches however is difficult for the thors to kill all of and if you throw in the hydras dps behind the roaches you waste thors np given the situation goes right after all micro and macro are important in all scenarios.
the thor is the mech unit of choice against the ultralisk otherwise the only prime units would be marauders which are barracks units and barracks units arent deployed when going mech or air units....
No. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. If ultras are not good vs thors then there is no counter to thors supported by hellions against zerglings and just a small amount of tanks against roach/hydra.
well then i guess you dont watch how top level players deal with mech then :/ as mass roach is pretty much the best way to deal with mech until alot of siege tanks are deployed in which ultras are gotten out to counter the siege lines but against pure thor/ hellion with a dash of tanks mass roach is the counter as a dash of tanks having to 3 shot roaches doesnt add up to mucha nd hellions dont do crap against the high roach hp. i mean obviously mass roache sins't going to steamroll mass thors but it's a cost effective army trades and while macroing good you come out way on top because zerg can resupply mass roach exetremely faster than terran can resupply mass thor. there was a game in the beta that was an example of your type of thinking. cellawerra was playing a guy named "slayersboxer" but not the real slayersboxer and the guy went mass thor and hellion, and cellawerra went mass roach and was being very cost effective until he decided to switch into mutas and then into ultralisks which costed him the game.
it's clear that thors obvious counter is in lots of units in general as thors do insane damage but only to single targets and at a slow rate. when simple common sense is applied the first thought counter is zergling sbut they get roasted by hellions so you move up to roaches which can kill both thors and hellions cost effectively when massed plus they can burrow move whenever terran doesnt have a raven or tower around. when you watch players like artosis and idra when dealing with lots of siege tanks they go ultra but when dealing with lots of thors and helliosn they usually go mass roach with infestors supprt to neural a few tanks here and there. you saying i dont have a clue is rude and ignorant and you shoudl really pay more attantion to hwo the higher level players act before randomly bashing people in forums. and because siege tanks now need to three shot hydras they are much much mroe useful so you should rethink the idea that they suck. their only weakspot now is that they are kinda slow.
On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote: k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors. the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed) in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf.
Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter.
And hydras are fucking terrible.
hydras are not terribel and roaches en mass are excellent vs mech in general let alone just thors. with the nerf to siege tanks hydras get 3 shotted by tanks now instead of 2 shotted which means they ahve gained alot of use now against mech simply because they have just as much survivability as roaches against siege fire. and hydras range and DPS is far from horrible. hardly anyones been taking advantage of the fact that hydras are now as durable as roaches against siege tanks. and hellions arent good against roaches really at all if you have hydras in close proximity to them so the hydras kill the hellions anytime they try to do any sort of kiting and it takes forever to kill a single roach with a bunch of hellions. ultralisks are not the prime counter to thors as while thors are armored they do insane dps to single targets and ultras generall dont come in huge numbers. massed roaches however is difficult for the thors to kill all of and if you throw in the hydras dps behind the roaches you waste thors np given the situation goes right after all micro and macro are important in all scenarios.
the thor is the mech unit of choice against the ultralisk otherwise the only prime units would be marauders which are barracks units and barracks units arent deployed when going mech or air units....
No. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. If ultras are not good vs thors then there is no counter to thors supported by hellions against zerglings and just a small amount of tanks against roach/hydra.
well then i guess you dont watch how top level players deal with mech then :/ as mass roach is pretty much the best way to deal with mech until alot of siege tanks are deployed in which ultras are gotten out to counter the siege lines but against pure thor/ hellion with a dash of tanks mass roach is the counter as a dash of tanks having to 3 shot roaches doesnt add up to mucha nd hellions dont do crap against the high roach hp. i mean obviously mass roache isn't going to steamroll mass thors but it's a cost effective army trades and while macroing good you come out way on top because zerg can resupply mass roach exetremely faster than terran can resupply mass thor. there was a game in the beta that was an example of your type of thinking. cellawerra was playing a guy named "slayersboxer" but not the real slayersboxer and the guy went mass thor and hellion, and cellawerra went mass roach and was being very cost effective until he decided to switch into mutas and then into ultralisks which costed him the game.
it's clear that thors obvious counter is in lots of units in general as thors do insane damage but only to single targets and at a slow rate. when simple common sense is applied the first thought counter is zergling sbut they get roasted by hellions so you move up to roaches which can kill both thors and hellions cost effectively when massed plus they can burrow move whenever terran doesnt have a raven or tower around. when you watch players like artosis and idra when dealing with lots of siege tanks they go ultra but when dealing with lots of thors and helliosn they usually go mass roach with infestors supprt to neural a few tanks here and there. you saying i dont have a clue is rude and ignorant and you shoudl really pay more attantion to hwo the higher level players act before randomly bashing people in forums. and because siege tanks now need to three shot hydras they are much much mroe useful so you should rethink the idea that they suck. their only weakspot now is that they are kinda slow.
I am not bashing you. You are just clueless. There is no fucking way idra and artosis would agree that infestor NP, hydra, and roach is a strong counter to mech with ultras in their current state. The only way Cool won his games against Top were by popping out 15 fucking ultras at the same time. His roach army got fucking shit stomped.
On September 28 2010 21:09 deth2munkies wrote: ITT: People crying about not being able to exploit an obviously unintended bug in game mechanics.
Seriously, now you can't use a bug as a crutch and have your enemies use it as an excuse, you should be thanking them.
Reading comprehension really isn't your strong point, is it?
Here's how it goes. In 1.0, the splash damage originated from the target. In 1.1, this was applied to buildings aswell. In 1.1.1, they made splash damage originate from the ultralisk. This fixed the building issues (Which was an issue and was OP, i'm glad they fixed that) but it made ultralisks TERRIBLE against bigger units. A clear nerf against UNITS from 1.0, that is without the damage nerf taken in to consideration.
On September 28 2010 21:18 Wolf wrote: If Ultralisks were that effective against Thors, I wonder how ridiculous they were against Stalker/Collossus compositions.
The nerfs were based on foundings of 1.0 so they were as ridiculous as they've always been (they weren't). Ultra's could never reach collosi in stalker/collosi formations so it wasn't as obvious i suppose...
On September 28 2010 21:15 HowardRoark wrote: Guys, this got me worried about Fruit dealer. He seem to not catch up quickly enough on the patch nerfs to zerg. Remember that he today after the patch was still sockfolding even though Blizzard just patched it out of the game.
Given the status thread here shows that KR is running the same version as US, and US hasn't received the patch that kills sockfolding, I think it's more likely it was Artosis who wasn't up with the changes to the game.
On September 28 2010 21:18 Wolf wrote: If Ultralisks were that effective against Thors, I wonder how ridiculous they were against Stalker/Collossus compositions.
If wasn't that effective because:
a) colossi have some sick range b) colossi have splash c) the mobility of colossi and stalkers would easily play a role in defending against mass ultras
and d) colossi do some sick damage because of that splash
On September 28 2010 21:18 Wolf wrote: If Ultralisks were that effective against Thors, I wonder how ridiculous they were against Stalker/Collossus compositions.
If wasn't that effective because:
a) colossi have some sick range b) colossi have splash c) the mobility of colossi and stalkers would easily play a role in defending against mass ultras
and d) colossi do some sick damage because of that splash
Ultras are super effective against colossi / stalkers. However, when protoss adapts by throwing in void rays/immortals/ upgrading stalker blink things balance out pretty well.
On September 28 2010 21:28 ilbh wrote: the radius pre-patch was completely OP. if the only answer zergs have against thors is something OP then the game is broken.
I don't think any zerg player would disagree with you there. Every one of us would prefer other viable strategies then surviving until ultralisk.
On September 28 2010 21:28 ilbh wrote: the radius pre-patch was completely OP. if the only answer zergs have against thors is something OP then the game is broken.
Yeah I guess thats why zergs were rampant owning all these tourneys with their op units, eh?
On September 28 2010 21:18 Wolf wrote: If Ultralisks were that effective against Thors, I wonder how ridiculous they were against Stalker/Collossus compositions.
If wasn't that effective because:
a) colossi have some sick range b) colossi have splash c) the mobility of colossi and stalkers would easily play a role in defending against mass ultras
and d) colossi do some sick damage because of that splash
Ultras are super effective against colossi / stalkers. However, when protoss adapts by throwing in void rays/immortals/ upgrading stalker blink things balance out pretty well.
Sorry, I assumed blink stalkers.
But re: colossi - And then the colossi walks up a cliff.
On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote: k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors. the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed) in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf.
Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter.
And hydras are fucking terrible.
hydras are not terribel and roaches en mass are excellent vs mech in general let alone just thors. with the nerf to siege tanks hydras get 3 shotted by tanks now instead of 2 shotted which means they ahve gained alot of use now against mech simply because they have just as much survivability as roaches against siege fire. and hydras range and DPS is far from horrible. hardly anyones been taking advantage of the fact that hydras are now as durable as roaches against siege tanks. and hellions arent good against roaches really at all if you have hydras in close proximity to them so the hydras kill the hellions anytime they try to do any sort of kiting and it takes forever to kill a single roach with a bunch of hellions. ultralisks are not the prime counter to thors as while thors are armored they do insane dps to single targets and ultras generall dont come in huge numbers. massed roaches however is difficult for the thors to kill all of and if you throw in the hydras dps behind the roaches you waste thors np given the situation goes right after all micro and macro are important in all scenarios.
the thor is the mech unit of choice against the ultralisk otherwise the only prime units would be marauders which are barracks units and barracks units arent deployed when going mech or air units....
No. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. If ultras are not good vs thors then there is no counter to thors supported by hellions against zerglings and just a small amount of tanks against roach/hydra.
well then i guess you dont watch how top level players deal with mech then :/ as mass roach is pretty much the best way to deal with mech until alot of siege tanks are deployed in which ultras are gotten out to counter the siege lines but against pure thor/ hellion with a dash of tanks mass roach is the counter as a dash of tanks having to 3 shot roaches doesnt add up to mucha nd hellions dont do crap against the high roach hp. i mean obviously mass roache isn't going to steamroll mass thors but it's a cost effective army trades and while macroing good you come out way on top because zerg can resupply mass roach exetremely faster than terran can resupply mass thor. there was a game in the beta that was an example of your type of thinking. cellawerra was playing a guy named "slayersboxer" but not the real slayersboxer and the guy went mass thor and hellion, and cellawerra went mass roach and was being very cost effective until he decided to switch into mutas and then into ultralisks which costed him the game.
it's clear that thors obvious counter is in lots of units in general as thors do insane damage but only to single targets and at a slow rate. when simple common sense is applied the first thought counter is zergling sbut they get roasted by hellions so you move up to roaches which can kill both thors and hellions cost effectively when massed plus they can burrow move whenever terran doesnt have a raven or tower around. when you watch players like artosis and idra when dealing with lots of siege tanks they go ultra but when dealing with lots of thors and helliosn they usually go mass roach with infestors supprt to neural a few tanks here and there. you saying i dont have a clue is rude and ignorant and you shoudl really pay more attantion to hwo the higher level players act before randomly bashing people in forums. and because siege tanks now need to three shot hydras they are much much mroe useful so you should rethink the idea that they suck. their only weakspot now is that they are kinda slow.
we understand ultras were not the be all end all only unit to use. but understand this.
not only have ultras been nerfed in zvt. but also zvp. not just against thors. but in general. not just against terran, but against protoss as well.
against stalker heavy armys(at mass), ultras ARE the be all end all ground unit. with reduced damage and reduced splash, they are less efficient meaning our so called "hard counter" is now a huge investment for a "soft counter" at best. yes roaches are used en masse with great effect, but when late game comes, and upgrades are all maxed for both sides, roaches dont cut it any more. which is where the ultra fit in. but no longer. ultra was zergs "YEAH GAME MOMENTUM HAS TURNED!" it is now no longer that. so what unit changes the momentum in games for zerg now?
........exactly.
read up all the threads about zergs needing help with late game. 95% of the answers suggest ultras as the late game unit. now remove ultra from the equation. what unit is our late game army based on?
On September 28 2010 21:18 Wolf wrote: If Ultralisks were that effective against Thors, I wonder how ridiculous they were against Stalker/Collossus compositions.
Well they were the one and only thing that worked.
On September 28 2010 21:28 ilbh wrote: the radius pre-patch was completely OP. if the only answer zergs have against thors is something OP then the game is broken.
Well in the world of Starcraft every unit needs to have about 400 HP and they regenerate rather quickly because of their large size.
BTW this patch was necessary, but Zerg still needs something to balance this out. It's sad when the only thing I know I can do to win in the late game is make imbalultralisks.
Ultralisks don't counter Thors if you have a butt-ton of hellions sitting infront of them like you should. Rather, the main counter to Thors and mech in general are broodlords and corruptors.
Really if the maps weren't stupid bunched up and Thors didn't clip into each other in an orgy of stupid the old Ultralisk range thing wouldn't have given them an advantage...
On September 28 2010 21:08 TyrantPotato wrote: Patch 1.1.2
-Removed the unit "Ultralisk" from the zerg race and have replaced it with the Roach having its size doubled.
"we felt that the ultralisk wasn't doing its job as intended, so we decided to remove it from the game. however we know that many zerg players will be unhappy with that change so we are increasing the roaches unit size, we feel that should make the zerg army look bigger, and will prevent the "OP" flooding into chokes that we believe is breaking the game."
"we have also heard rumours that there are problems with Terran being "OP", we have taken the initiative to program a new "Forum Bot". it will serve as a automated admin that will remove any such foolish allegations that are posted on the battle.net forums. we will not stand for such ignorant opinions."
On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote: k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors. the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed) in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf.
Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter.
And hydras are fucking terrible.
hydras are not terribel and roaches en mass are excellent vs mech in general let alone just thors. with the nerf to siege tanks hydras get 3 shotted by tanks now instead of 2 shotted which means they ahve gained alot of use now against mech simply because they have just as much survivability as roaches against siege fire. and hydras range and DPS is far from horrible. hardly anyones been taking advantage of the fact that hydras are now as durable as roaches against siege tanks. and hellions arent good against roaches really at all if you have hydras in close proximity to them so the hydras kill the hellions anytime they try to do any sort of kiting and it takes forever to kill a single roach with a bunch of hellions. ultralisks are not the prime counter to thors as while thors are armored they do insane dps to single targets and ultras generall dont come in huge numbers. massed roaches however is difficult for the thors to kill all of and if you throw in the hydras dps behind the roaches you waste thors np given the situation goes right after all micro and macro are important in all scenarios.
the thor is the mech unit of choice against the ultralisk otherwise the only prime units would be marauders which are barracks units and barracks units arent deployed when going mech or air units....
No. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. If ultras are not good vs thors then there is no counter to thors supported by hellions against zerglings and just a small amount of tanks against roach/hydra.
well then i guess you dont watch how top level players deal with mech then :/ as mass roach is pretty much the best way to deal with mech until alot of siege tanks are deployed in which ultras are gotten out to counter the siege lines but against pure thor/ hellion with a dash of tanks mass roach is the counter as a dash of tanks having to 3 shot roaches doesnt add up to mucha nd hellions dont do crap against the high roach hp. i mean obviously mass roache sins't going to steamroll mass thors but it's a cost effective army trades and while macroing good you come out way on top because zerg can resupply mass roach exetremely faster than terran can resupply mass thor. there was a game in the beta that was an example of your type of thinking. cellawerra was playing a guy named "slayersboxer" but not the real slayersboxer and the guy went mass thor and hellion, and cellawerra went mass roach and was being very cost effective until he decided to switch into mutas and then into ultralisks which costed him the game.
it's clear that thors obvious counter is in lots of units in general as thors do insane damage but only to single targets and at a slow rate. when simple common sense is applied the first thought counter is zergling sbut they get roasted by hellions so you move up to roaches which can kill both thors and hellions cost effectively when massed plus they can burrow move whenever terran doesnt have a raven or tower around. when you watch players like artosis and idra when dealing with lots of siege tanks they go ultra but when dealing with lots of thors and helliosn they usually go mass roach with infestors supprt to neural a few tanks here and there. you saying i dont have a clue is rude and ignorant and you shoudl really pay more attantion to hwo the higher level players act before randomly bashing people in forums. and because siege tanks now need to three shot hydras they are much much mroe useful so you should rethink the idea that they suck. their only weakspot now is that they are kinda slow.
You have no clue man. Please just stop.
sigh, typical rude zerg players just cry and insult everyone and dont give anything a second thought.
On September 28 2010 21:18 Croz wrote: Sorry for spamming these images. But another recap of the images I posted. These are informing pokeballs though
This is right, please update the OP with this, because maybe then the stupid kids yelling LOLOL ZERG TEARS IT WAS A BUG L2P blabla
On September 28 2010 21:19 Raiznhell wrote:
On September 28 2010 21:03 Bosu wrote:
On September 28 2010 21:00 Raiznhell wrote:
On September 28 2010 20:42 Bosu wrote:
On September 28 2010 20:38 Raiznhell wrote: k for anyone discussing mass thors... the best way to counter if he's got pretty much only thors is mass zerglings and if he has hellions with then mass roaches and hydras as yeah they get 2 shotted each but the roach hydra damage output is significant enough to destroy the thors. the ultralisk is the counter for sieged tanks more than anything else because of how weak siege tanks are against ultras in sc2 (50 damage now, in BW they did 75 damage 90 when fully upgraded against massive units plus they were 2 supply and cheaper so there was alot more tanks deployed) in sc2 ultras soak up the siege fire plus just demolish them and this nerf very slighty affects splash on medium sized units. ultralisks while an armored counter are not ment against thors mostly against tanks.
honestly they should just put the ram back in becasue the ultralisk was awesome as it was if anything it needed it's 5 damage nerf.
Mass thors and hellions with blue flame absolutely crush roaches and zerglings. Ultralisk is the only counter.
And hydras are fucking terrible.
hydras are not terribel and roaches en mass are excellent vs mech in general let alone just thors. with the nerf to siege tanks hydras get 3 shotted by tanks now instead of 2 shotted which means they ahve gained alot of use now against mech simply because they have just as much survivability as roaches against siege fire. and hydras range and DPS is far from horrible. hardly anyones been taking advantage of the fact that hydras are now as durable as roaches against siege tanks. and hellions arent good against roaches really at all if you have hydras in close proximity to them so the hydras kill the hellions anytime they try to do any sort of kiting and it takes forever to kill a single roach with a bunch of hellions. ultralisks are not the prime counter to thors as while thors are armored they do insane dps to single targets and ultras generall dont come in huge numbers. massed roaches however is difficult for the thors to kill all of and if you throw in the hydras dps behind the roaches you waste thors np given the situation goes right after all micro and macro are important in all scenarios.
the thor is the mech unit of choice against the ultralisk otherwise the only prime units would be marauders which are barracks units and barracks units arent deployed when going mech or air units....
No. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. If ultras are not good vs thors then there is no counter to thors supported by hellions against zerglings and just a small amount of tanks against roach/hydra.
well then i guess you dont watch how top level players deal with mech then :/ as mass roach is pretty much the best way to deal with mech until alot of siege tanks are deployed in which ultras are gotten out to counter the siege lines but against pure thor/ hellion with a dash of tanks mass roach is the counter as a dash of tanks having to 3 shot roaches doesnt add up to mucha nd hellions dont do crap against the high roach hp. i mean obviously mass roache sins't going to steamroll mass thors but it's a cost effective army trades and while macroing good you come out way on top because zerg can resupply mass roach exetremely faster than terran can resupply mass thor. there was a game in the beta that was an example of your type of thinking. cellawerra was playing a guy named "slayersboxer" but not the real slayersboxer and the guy went mass thor and hellion, and cellawerra went mass roach and was being very cost effective until he decided to switch into mutas and then into ultralisks which costed him the game.
it's clear that thors obvious counter is in lots of units in general as thors do insane damage but only to single targets and at a slow rate. when simple common sense is applied the first thought counter is zergling sbut they get roasted by hellions so you move up to roaches which can kill both thors and hellions cost effectively when massed plus they can burrow move whenever terran doesnt have a raven or tower around. when you watch players like artosis and idra when dealing with lots of siege tanks they go ultra but when dealing with lots of thors and helliosn they usually go mass roach with infestors supprt to neural a few tanks here and there. you saying i dont have a clue is rude and ignorant and you shoudl really pay more attantion to hwo the higher level players act before randomly bashing people in forums. and because siege tanks now need to three shot hydras they are much much mroe useful so you should rethink the idea that they suck. their only weakspot now is that they are kinda slow.
You have no clue man. Please just stop.
sigh, typical rude zerg players just cry and insult everyone and dont give anything a second thought.
They gave you valid points as to why you are wrong. And since you still don't see the error of your thinking: you have no clue.
What's hilarious is that situation report 1.1 states that they FEEL that ultras are too difficult to stop with a ground army so the dmg was nerfed so that ultra with the old splash would be "balanced".
Now ultra got reduced dmg AND reduced splash.. So much for minor balanced tweaks over longer periods of time to ensure good and well-tested changes!
Maybe the feeling that ultras were too hard to stop with a ground army would go away with this AoE nerf alone, yes? Bring back old dmg, or even increase it further... Blizzard needs to realize that they need to completely rebalance ultras now, they are completely different units, that were nerfed because of their old mechanics and how they used to 'feel'
On September 28 2010 19:53 dcemuser wrote: This an absolutely massive nerf to the Ultralisk's viability because even if the Terran was using 1 Thor, the Ultralisks could focus fire the Thor and splash the rest of the army.
I really think the unit is going to be largely abandoned in favor of Broods at this point. Either way, this was not what Zerg needed right now, and I think the community backlash is going to be huge.
Excellent pictures by the way, OP, illustrates the change perfectly.
Erm no - you can't fit enough ultras into the area to splash one thor into other thors. What would happen is each ultra hitting each thor would splash onto each surrounding thor, thus amplifying the effect.
No, I mean if you had, for example 3 Ultras attacking a Terran army with like 3 Tanks, 10 marines, and 1 Thor, then you could have the Ultras target the Thor and it would hit -everything- in the Terran's army. If you targeted the Marines, you would hit barely anything.
Which is how it always was and ultras still would lose.
On September 28 2010 21:40 Trampsi wrote: What's hilarious is that situation report 1.1 states that they FEEL that ultras are too difficult to stop with a ground army so the dmg was nerfed so that ultra with the old splash would be "balanced".
Now ultra got reduced dmg AND reduced splash.. So much for minor balanced tweaks over longer periods of time to ensure good and well-tested changes!
Maybe the feeling that ultras are too hard to stop with a ground army would go away with this AoE nerf alone, yes? Bring back old dmg, or even increase it further... Blizzard needs to realize that tey need to completely rebalance ultras now, they are completely different units, that were nerfed because of their old mechanics.
I agree completely. They nerfed the unit based on the old mechanics, and then changed the mechanics to fix a 'bug' (still not comfortable calling it that, it was really them having zero foresight).
On September 28 2010 21:40 Trampsi wrote: What's hilarious is that situation report 1.1 states that they FEEL that ultras are too difficult to stop with a ground army so the dmg was nerfed so that ultra with the old splash would be "balanced".
Now ultra got reduced dmg AND reduced splash.. So much for minor balanced tweaks over longer periods of time to ensure good and well-tested changes!
Maybe the feeling that ultras are too hard to stop with a ground army would go away with this AoE nerf alone, yes? Bring back old dmg, or even increase it further... Blizzard needs to realize that tey need to completely rebalance ultras now, they are completely different units, that were nerfed because of their old mechanics.
I agree completely. They nerfed the unit based on the old mechanics, and then changed the mechanics to fix a 'bug' (still not comfortable calling it that, it was really them having zero foresight).
Yeah, zero foresight, twice! First the LoL splashing when attacking command centers, and now the 0-splash when attacking large units.
Blizzard feared people would leave the game once terran had a singular weird disadvantage and something they had to work to prevent (like zergs have 50 things they need to scout and work on preventing), so a hot-fix within one week to get back adoration from terrans, but in the same process screwing over zerg. Shows how important the T playerbase is, when they get completely weird hot-fixes within days.
I wonder how the zerg campaign will be. Either there will be like waves of 3 marauders coming at you every 3 minutes, or blizzard will actually have to buff zerg, else everybody will whine that campaign is OP
On September 28 2010 21:40 Trampsi wrote: What's hilarious is that situation report 1.1 states that they FEEL that ultras are too difficult to stop with a ground army so the dmg was nerfed so that ultra with the old splash would be "balanced".
Now ultra got reduced dmg AND reduced splash.. So much for minor balanced tweaks over longer periods of time to ensure good and well-tested changes!
Maybe the feeling that ultras are too hard to stop with a ground army would go away with this AoE nerf alone, yes? Bring back old dmg, or even increase it further... Blizzard needs to realize that tey need to completely rebalance ultras now, they are completely different units, that were nerfed because of their old mechanics.
I agree completely. They nerfed the unit based on the old mechanics, and then changed the mechanics to fix a 'bug' (still not comfortable calling it that, it was really them having zero foresight).
yeah its like throwing out rotten apples because they dont taste good, then buying lemons. but throwing them out because they dont taste like apples. then buying pears and saying "well they are kinda like apples" and just ignoring the repercussions. (if that makes sense)
honestly, despite blizzards already reputation of terrible patches. this just drops to a whole new level.
Well, while it is a huge nerf that should have been documented, and zerg isn't in a good position to be nerfed right now, it kind of makes sense that the ultra's splash would only be in range of its claws.
On September 28 2010 21:48 TedJustice wrote: Well, while it is a huge nerf that should have been documented, and zerg isn't in a good position to be nerfed right now, it kind of makes sense that the ultra's splash would only be in range of its claws.
Kind of makes sense that patch 1.1 was about balancing ultras with their big splash? and now they are balanced around something they lost? sry, nvm. you were just trying to see the "realism" :p
On September 28 2010 21:48 TedJustice wrote: Well, while it is a huge nerf that should have been documented, and zerg isn't in a good position to be nerfed right now, it kind of makes sense that the ultra's splash would only be in range of its claws.
Kind of makes sense that patch 1.1 was about balancing ultras with their big splash? and now they are balanced around something they lost?
Yeah, I wasn't implying that the game is in a good state from this, just that it was probably a good change.
On September 28 2010 21:48 TedJustice wrote: Well, while it is a huge nerf that should have been documented, and zerg isn't in a good position to be nerfed right now, it kind of makes sense that the ultra's splash would only be in range of its claws.
People wouldn't complain, if they had compensated for the change, for example buffing their main damage to 20 vs light and 40 vs armored or buffing splash to 50% damage instead of 33%. Instead they just reduced the splash in all situations, even the ones that weren't affected by the 1.1.0 patch and provided no compensation at all.
On September 28 2010 21:52 koppik wrote: Yeah, I think it was the right change to make, but really they could have waited until Zerg was doing slightly better than they are currently.
Agreed. Was the splash abit over the top? Yeah, but given Zergs current state, they should have just let Zerg have it until the rolled the next balance patch.
On September 28 2010 21:51 DoubleReed wrote: I think what annoys me the most is that they fixed the ultralisk before fixing the repair mechanic.
Oh but wait, that's a broken mechanic that belongs to terran, so there clearly is no problem here.
I know Blizzard is aware of the issue, so what the hell?
this is gonna sound completely wierd consipiricy type BUT i have a theory
consider this, majority of players play terran. (alot of which are new to RTS and play terran because of campaign) perhaps Blizzard wants a terran to win the First GSL then use that to justifie future terran nerfs.
perhaps they are on our side. but waiting for legit reasons to silence possible future Terran QQers.
Terrans cant complain if final is all terran (convincingly) and with all the Whine of terrans being OP.
this way they can safetly nerf terran without thousands of 12 year old cry babys wingeing and whining till blizzards head explodes.
mind you this is completely random thing i just thought of. 99.999999989% most likely not true.
but come on. how can a major game developer be this god damn stupid.
Right now, the only late game option for zerg vs terran are ultras. Broodlords cost so much and a simple swap + vikings totally hard counter them. And now, zerg has no late game options either against terran.
Well, with complete clumping (i.e no micro on the terran's part) ultras are pretty bad. But with a little effort to spread out thors, ultras will almost never splash a clump of large units. Just so frustrated.
On September 28 2010 21:48 TedJustice wrote: Well, while it is a huge nerf that should have been documented, and zerg isn't in a good position to be nerfed right now, it kind of makes sense that the ultra's splash would only be in range of its claws.
People wouldn't complain, if they had compensated for the change, for example buffing their main damage to 20 vs light and 40 vs armored or buffing splash to 50% damage instead of 33%. Instead they just reduced the splash in all situations, even the ones that weren't affected by the 1.1.0 patch and provided no compensation at all.
haha the ultralisk nerf kinda reminds you of a certain zerg nerf back in beta?
cough cough roaches moved up to 2 supply without compensation. cough cough.
sad thing is blizzard didnt change that so most likely not going to change ultras.
Ok, hold on. Shouldn't a Z be up by at least 1 base? Assuming it gets really, really late-game, and Z is on 4 bases and T is on 3, Z can have one and a third times as many ultras (based solely on the gas restriction) than if they were on equal bases..... Basically, Z can get 4 Ultras for T's 3 Thors.....
And if Z doesn't get upgrades, nor the upgraded carapace for the Ultras, he's in shit anyways.....
Patching the various bugs was the right thing to do , but the way they did it ... OMGWTFBBQ!!! What a terrible nerf to an already tough to play race. Well , I think most people wouldn't expect Zerg to be buffed up till HoTS comes out anyways. So all i'd hope for would be for HoTS to come out as soon as possible.
you just need to realize ultras are for specific situations, if terran has several thors, dont make ultras. Broodlords are waaaaay better than ultras against terran.
I hate see ppl complain about some issue without checking out the other viable alternatives.
splash is big enough in 1.1.1 against marines and tanks.
On September 28 2010 22:02 ganil wrote: Well... ultrakisks were too strong ZvT lategame. I guess they somehow fixed it. Idk about ZvP but I think they were as good anyway.
Believe it or not, it a step in the right direction. Now they should improve zerg scouting early game^^.
On September 28 2010 22:01 eLFootman wrote: you just need to realize ultras are for specific situations, if terran has several thors, dont make ultras. Broodlords are waaaaay better than ultras against terran.
Yeah, if only Terra had a good counter to Broodlords, something like a unit with range 9 that deals 22 damage per shot and can't be attack by the Broodlord.
On September 28 2010 22:00 Impervious wrote: Ok, hold on. Shouldn't a Z be up by at least 1 base? Assuming it gets really, really late-game, and Z is on 4 bases and T is on 3, Z can have one and a third times as many ultras (based solely on the gas restriction) than if they were on equal bases..... Basically, Z can get 4 Ultras for T's 3 Thors.....
And if Z doesn't get upgrades, nor the upgraded carapace for the Ultras, he's in shit anyways.....
Anyone try running that in the calculations?
Pretty sure a 3 base terran has more income than a 4 base Zerg. Except for Gas of coourse.
Without swarm/lurkers and now that terran has free dropships, being up 1 base is a lot harder than it was in bw. Oh yeah, and mules, so it doesn't really matter anyway.
On September 28 2010 22:01 john0507 wrote: Patching the various bugs was the right thing to do , but the way they did it ... OMGWTFBBQ!!! What a terrible nerf to an already tough to play race. Well , I think most people wouldn't expect Zerg to be buffed up till HoTS comes out anyways. So all i'd hope for would be for HoTS to come out as soon as possible.
Honestly I expect zerg to made even with the rest of the races and the other races buffed as well.
I think it is evident that Blizzard doesn't think there's that much of a problem with zerg.
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/qVE7K.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/LcLJw.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/cK3Sz.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/eFxSf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/f9YWW.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/dIwUm.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ihkK8.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/qseWd.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/9MqQv.png)
![[image loading]](http://img833.imageshack.us/i/ultrasplash.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:6SfzhiLgL-4WrM:http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk122/good_mate_jones/fffuuuu.jpg&t=1)
![[image loading]](http://rob.nu/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/facepalm2.jpg)
