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On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:
Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option.
I agree that zergs need more utility but this is an absurd point. Medivacs are 100/100 EACH. Overlords are 100/0 each. Drop+speed research is a 1 time thing. And yes sometimes you lose overlords (and thus supply) when you doom drop, welcome to BW, zergs still drop play all the time.
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I would understand how balancing was hard if zerg was actually good in some areas. But they simply are the worst race also on team games and even huge circumstances such as FFA where you'd expect fast reproducing to be a plus. The units simply are too weak, and don't do good ever in even populated fights if opponent has some of their superunits in mix (colos, tanks, bigair). I suppose 1v1 could be fixed with zerg favoring maps (aka. change from complete unfavoring maps to metalo-like maps).
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On September 24 2010 04:37 Brainsurgeon wrote:
We've got dimaga and cool now, we just need IdrA to threaten a race switch and maybe Blizzard will listen.
That won't do very much. I think people are losing faith in Blizzards ability to balance Zerg with the tiny changes going on, when more fundamental changes are required. Blizzard needs to be openly told by a union of pro's or something more suitable.
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I've seen some people suggesting adding scourges to zerg to help deal with drops - the one thing I'd worry about with that is broodlords. If vikings get taken out by scourge terran could have some trouble dealing with broodlords. I wouldn't be opposed to giving scourge a whirl though.
Another thing that I think could be tried to help zerg deal with terran drops is reducing the speed of medivacs. Alot of people complain about medivacs being too good, which does have some basis (being that they come out of the box as a fully capable healer AND drop ship). A warp prism like speed upgrade could help - especially if it was somewhat expensive like 150/150 or 200/200. It would at least require terran to make a bigger investment if they want to do drops.
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On September 24 2010 04:40 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:
Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. I agree that zergs need more utility but this is an absurd point. Medivacs are 100/100 EACH. Overlords are 100/0 each. Drop+speed research is a 1 time thing. And yes sometimes you lose overlords (and thus supply) when you doom drop, welcome to BW, zergs still drop play all the time.
A one-time thing that costs as much as the three Medivacs that could end the entire game for the Z and Overlords can't heal the units that pop out of them
Sorry but Terran drops are overpowered, period
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Well...
Damn.
Cool was by far my favorite Zerg to watch...He, Psy, and IdrA are the only reason I'm still Zerg D:
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On September 24 2010 04:42 pksens wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:37 Brainsurgeon wrote:
We've got dimaga and cool now, we just need IdrA to threaten a race switch and maybe Blizzard will listen. That won't do very much. I think people are losing faith in Blizzards ability to balance Zerg with the tiny changes going on, when more fundamental changes are required. Blizzard needs to be openly told by a union of pro's or something more suitable.
i like you quite a bit.
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this is what I ahve been saying all along, even when I mained terran. Zerg cannot deal offcreep, hydras are not a viable unit off creep, if you still think they are I would ask that you try and use them some ;D
small chokes + forcefields have destroyed zerg since the beta... even when roach was 1 pop 2 armor forcefield was STRONG.
now roach are 2 food 1 armor and forcefield got a huge buff in its mechanic, it traps units much better tahn in beta
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are we still comparing a 10 second hatch snipe to zerg drops? lol seriously try dropping with zerg and see your net gain vs losses
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On September 24 2010 04:37 Brainsurgeon wrote:
We've got dimaga and cool now, we just need IdrA to threaten a race switch and maybe Blizzard will listen.
We just need for the zergs whos gonna attend blizzcon to play another race. Or play zerg and get completely raped, then maby blizzard can wake up.
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One thing I haven't seen zergs used that should be good for countering drops is nydus worms. Allows you go get your units inbetween your bases to defend drops faster than anything else. Though I do wish nydus unloaded faster.
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 sKyHigh would be a fucking bonjwa in this game. Even Terrans hate vT matchup. Can't be stupider.
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On September 24 2010 04:27 3clipse wrote:
I'm not even going to read this thread because it'll be like every other thread with alternating comments on imbalance and 25 post terrans saying "stop QQ and l2p".
It's too early to resume bitching until the patch changes settle a bit and strategies compensate. But when that does happen, I sincerely hope that Blizzard will recognize the overwhelming body of evidence that zerg is underpowered and continue moving to rectify it.
Actually there's almost no terrans saying that in this thread. Most terrans are in general consensus at this point that zerg needs changes. They need more options, or better options, or something to help them compensate.
It just sucks that zerg is far and away the hardest race to play mechanically thanks to larva inject and creep tumors, and at the same time is the most "underpowered" in terms of strategies.
I hope blizzard thinks of something. I don't want all the zergs to switch races, that would kill this game and I really like tvz, both watching and playing it are great.
My only suggestion balance-wise is to allow multiple larva injects to be cast on a hatchery simultaneously. Maybe there should be an upper limit, like 2 or 3. All this would really do would make the larva inject ability less unforgiving and the giving the players the option to forgo using it for other actions when needed would definitely help, if only a little bit.
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What blizzard should do is really put scourge back into the game. This would balance the drop issue.
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I find the argument about drops a little amusing. It's not the medivacs themselves that are ridiculous... but merely the cargo that they carry. Drop 8 stimmed marauders and compared it to 8 or even 12 roaches or hydra and laugh at the difference.
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How can people even compare terran drop with zerg drop? Medivac drop is so much better in pretty much every way.
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On September 24 2010 04:10 Exclamator wrote:
If any of you guys were active in WoW, you would know Blizzard's track record for balancing games. For example, in WoW arena, a counter was found for RMP (A dominant and overpowered arena composition), but in the same week that counter for RMP got nerfed. They have no desire to balance a game.
Yah... tell more Bullshit. If don't have a Clue, don't talk about WoW. Blizzard at balancing WoW Arena is a massive fail, WotlK at least. Like Paladins are OP like shit 2-3 Seasons with very stupid Speccs like Hybrid Holy/Ret later Prot/Holy and then Prot/Ret Bullshit. Smae for DKs.
But then (in times were 2v2 matters) Rog/Priest is like a litte to strong they just swinged the nerf bat after TWO fucking Weeks! But Paladins run around 2 shotting everyone for MONTHS get Gladiator Titles etc. for free. i mean WTF?!
But.... trying to balance a MMO is totally different thing than balancing a RTS. Imho balancing a MMO in an Arena environment is impossible.
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i also think that FF is wrong in this game. iam not saying toss is op, no i dont. but insta-creating terrain blockers is not a good idea. you had games where a protoss could ff your ramp until he got 2 expos while you had to fast tech to mutas and still couldnt do shit? 
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On September 24 2010 04:42 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:40 moopie wrote:On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:
Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. I agree that zergs need more utility but this is an absurd point. Medivacs are 100/100 EACH. Overlords are 100/0 each. Drop+speed research is a 1 time thing. And yes sometimes you lose overlords (and thus supply) when you doom drop, welcome to BW, zergs still drop play all the time. A one-time thing that costs as much as the three Medivacs that could end the entire game for the Z and Overlords can't heal the units that pop out of them
I don't have an issue with drop research being lowered (in fact I think it would be a good thing). What I do have an issue with is people whining that when they lose an overlord, they lose supply and thus they can't drop.
That has been a part of zerg play for over 10 years and has proven to work well. Yes it can be risky, but alternatively after drop research you have all your overlords capable of dropping (you never had to build them for the sake of dropping like T built dropships or P shuttles, though you did have to replenish them if you didn't plan your drop well).
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I'm surprised that nobody here could possibly suggest that Zergs just haven't come up with the right strategies yet. It seems like some of you forget some of the BW imbalances that existed for a long time and were only fixed by players coming up with new build orders months in the future. Blizzard didn't patch anything...it took pro teams months for somebody to finally come up with something that worked.
I know you all want to think that all of these top SC2 pros are pure strategic geniuses who CLEARLY would find the strat/response that worked if it existed, but really these guys are mechanics pros. They aren't creative super geniuses who come up with all the builds themselves.
Even now there are constantly new builds from all races developing all the time. From one tournament to the next, the so-called "standard" openings are constantly changing for all races. To those claiming Blizzard doesn't care and bla bla, you must not have been around for all of the SC1/BW imbalances. They clearly want their game to be as balanced as possible.
Might zerg needs some more love? It sure is possible. I just can't take one guy's word for it at this early stage in the game.
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EPT
