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On August 28 2010 05:32 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +Ultralisk damage is being decreased from 15, +25 vs. armored to 15, +20 vs. armored. This reduction is comparable to the changes being made to the battlecruiser and siege tank. Like the battlecruiser, ultralisks are simply too powerful for the cost, even though they are difficult to muster. Also, in combination with other units, ultralisks are difficult to counter from the ground. The ultralisk building attack (Ram) is being removed because the damage rate is too similar to its normal attack, which will be used against buildings instead. When ultralisks target tightly packed smaller buildings such as supply depots, the Ram attack is actually outputting considerably less overall damage than its normal attack, as Ram only hits a single target this interests me. ultralisks will now have the same if not LESS dmg out put as marauders (a tier 1.5 unit). with stim im pretty sure a marauder will easily out dmg a ultralisk. and marauders are cheap as fuck compared to ultras so u can easily mass a load of them. so why do they not consider marauders as "to powerful" even tho they utterly destroy buildings and armored units in small numbers? i think anyone would agree that marauders are to powerful of a unit to be tier 1.5.
Ultralisks attack a lot faster and have considerable splash. Not to mention the sheer size of Ultralisks helps to reduce splash damage to surrounding units.
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On August 28 2010 05:32 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +Ultralisk damage is being decreased from 15, +25 vs. armored to 15, +20 vs. armored. This reduction is comparable to the changes being made to the battlecruiser and siege tank. Like the battlecruiser, ultralisks are simply too powerful for the cost, even though they are difficult to muster. Also, in combination with other units, ultralisks are difficult to counter from the ground. The ultralisk building attack (Ram) is being removed because the damage rate is too similar to its normal attack, which will be used against buildings instead. When ultralisks target tightly packed smaller buildings such as supply depots, the Ram attack is actually outputting considerably less overall damage than its normal attack, as Ram only hits a single target this interests me. ultralisks will now have the same if not LESS dmg out put as marauders (a tier 1.5 unit). with stim im pretty sure a marauder will easily out dmg a ultralisk. and marauders are cheap as fuck compared to ultras so u can easily mass a load of them. so why do they not consider marauders as "to powerful" even tho they utterly destroy buildings and armored units in small numbers? i think anyone would agree that marauders are to powerful of a unit to be tier 1.5.
what is wrong with you. ultralisks have 500 hp, gigantic splash, and marine cooldown.
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On August 28 2010 05:25 Nexic wrote:
This is my main concern. I like TvT as it is now, seems like tanks should be the hard counter to marines. Seems like this will make mass bio that much more effective, and stuff like marine/hellion allin push, etc. I suck at theorycraft though so I'm sure someone could figure it out.
i think TvT bio may be viable but it will be more positional and timing push orientated..as now marine balls can get close early game. or even take a shot from the tank and finish the tank off.
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Vatican City State95 Posts
On August 28 2010 05:25 Armsved wrote:
LMAO tanks are useless now. I'll probably go protoss if this goes through
They most certainly are not useless, flavor of the week much?
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With this tank nerf I hope they atleast shave off 25 gas and 1 food.
As it stands they'd be a bit too expensive and not such a good "support" unit anymore.
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On August 28 2010 05:28 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 05:09 Cranberries wrote:
Marine: 25 seconds.
Tech Lab: 25 seconds.
Marauder: 30 seconds.
Marauder: 30 seconds.
Total: 110 seconds.
Against:
Zealot: 38 seconds.
Cybernetics: 50 seconds.
Stalker: 42 seconds.
Zealot: 38 seconds.
Total: 168 seconds.
There's a 58 second period where the Terran player needs to travel to your base with the 1 Marine/2 Marauders. During this time, Concussive Shells will be researched and I fear the Protoss player will be in severe trouble. Looking at every map, is there a walking distance that takes 58 seconds? I'd argue most take a lot less.
It feels like Protoss are having their units' build time balanced around Chrono Boost. That's all fine and dandy but Chrono Boost is sometimes used on upgrades, and in this scenario (where you need two Zealots and a Stalker) to survive ... I think the Protoss player will be dead before the Zealot comes out. Zealot and cybercore build times overlap, so its really 50 + 42 + 38 = 130 - 13 (2 cb) = 117 seconds Chrono boost on two of those units and suddenly you have two zealots and a stalker out in 117 seconds, and probably another stalker or zealot by the time terran gets there. I'll take two zealots two stalkers vs marine / 2marauder any day. Honestly, nothing has changed in that match up's early game whatsoever.
Most PvT builds I've seen go Zealot and build the Cybernetics when the Zealot finishes, this is so you get maximum economy gains for mid to late game: especially as you'll be competing against two base mules and need all the economy possible to support Immortal + Gateway production.
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They are going to nerf Ultralisk? I think Incontrol will rage D:
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Dominican Republic97 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:17 fnaticAugury wrote:
That tank nerf makes me so happy, it will be nice to possibly be able to engage tanks now.
The BC nerf was definitely needed, the only real counter was with air units.
Zealot change was very unexpected though. Not sure how that will play out.
Reaper/Bunker changes seem good, I'd really have liked a change to make salvage only return 80-90% of the cost though. Just seems dumb making them essentially free.
BUNKER ARE MADE OF PAPER DUDE COME ON. its ok. tbh
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Agreeing on balance points being made (except for BC simply because I've never used it/seen it).
I certainly hope some of the changes will change the ZvT meta game.
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It seems like the zealot nerf mostly affects the early game. Later on, you just need slightly more warp-gates. The warp-in time is about 18% longer. So you need 18% more warp-gates to warp in the same number of zealots per unit of time. That's the same as making warp-gates 18% more expensive - i.e. 27 more minerals per gate. But that assumes 100% of your gate units are going to be zealots. If it's, say, 1/3 zealots, that's the same as gateways being like 9 minerals more expensive. Hardly a game-breaker.
I'm more worried about early MM, which was already tough to defend.
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My thoughts (Gold-ish Terran player)
Poor Protoss. Congratulations on becomming the 3rd rate citizens...you're gonna be hardcore raped by zerg, and still get worked by Terran
Zerg...I like the Ultra reblance (I'm hard pressed to call it a true nerf.) Sure, the building rape will slow slightly, but the splash will help. I think it was a well thought out change.
Terran...I like the reaper nerf. Minor, but enough to do harm to a mass reaper build. Might still need to be tweaked again slightly...if I was the guy doing the balance, I think I'd move the nitro upgrade to the EngBay...but if I did that I'd keep the rest as it is today. Mabye.
Bunker nerf...in my opinion, build time isn't the issue, its the 100% salavage return. If it could be done...I would say that the salvage should be reduced over time...so if you salv'd the instant you built it, you'd get 100% - but the % drops by 1% every 2 seconds or so. By 3 or 4 minutes you'd get a minimum return of 25%.
The tank nerf is hardcore...I think they went a little too far to be honest. 40+15a I think would be closer to the truth...or do 35+15a but either 150/125/2 or 150/100/3 as I think they're just a slight bit too expensive with the nerf. Or even....30/50a but then move the siege research into the armory....it brings tanks closer to their intended role...hardcore damage to armored...while really weakening them otherwise & also makes then the siege a little slower to get in the armory.
BC nerf...completely unwarranted in every way. Shit, I haven't played a game in weeks that came close to even getting out BC's. But hey, fine, we bring them down slightly instead...go form 10 to 9.
Really, I'm interested to see how it plays out. P is getting anally violated, T is taking a serious hit with the nerfbat, and Z is coming out like roses...but Z needs love. I admit, I'm slightly worried that Z will be the OP race now - although their early game is still a problem vT, I'm worried their late game will be too strong vT, and early game too strong vP.
Overall, a decent patch, although I think its a little too....extreme...especially for the first post-release balance patch.
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I dont understand how people read out of this that we get chat channels next patch. It might be possible, but could as well take more time. Otherwise hard tank nerf, for it doesnt one shot zerglings with +1 armor any more, as well as workers  . So the +1 attack upgrade for mech becomes much more important in tvz. Well lets see how this works out in tvp, for the zealot got nerfed too.
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I dont really get it, they increased the cooldown on warpgate, but this only effects 1 unit, zealot? I thought it didnt matter what unit you warped in, the cooldown would be the same.
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On August 28 2010 02:10 koppik wrote:
Pretty good changes, except for Protoss. The race needs a buff, if zealots are being nerfed.
Oh, but I really don't understand the battlecruiser nerf. They do a lot of damage, sure, but they're just so easily kited by units that it doesn't matter.
Honestly we fre fine against zerg and adding 5 seconds to the zeal build time wont stop us from walling off against early ling rushes.
And as far as I'm concerned, reapers taking 5 more seconds and siege tanks doing 15 less to chargelots is a HUGE buff for us. Now we can actually survive tier 2 a little easier.
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great, just as i get the hang of ZvT they nerf T, got to get some games in so i can stomp when they get nerfed.
In all honest the ultra nerf was needed, they were far too cost effective vs MM with tanks, 6 ultras could wreck a pure marauder army with 25 marauder with 2 tanks for support
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Agree on that ultras needed nerf, specially now when Tanks no longer kills everything. Looks like a Terran now actually can kill Ultras if he has superior economy an a bigger army, example would be marauders. I don't understand why they Nerfed BC's though
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How does the Marauder keep managing to avoid the nerfbat?
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On August 28 2010 05:02 ig0tfish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:59 FrogOfWar wrote:
Hmmm. As a Protoss player, I'm having the hardest time against Terran, and the problem is not tanks and battle cruisers, but early game bio aggression. I expected them to nerf that a little bit or just buff early game Zerg, which would've been fine with me. But now they make it even harder to defend against that? o_O Wall off ramp with sentries?
Yeah, I know. Still would feel better to be actually able to fight the opponent. (And no, I'm not saying it is impossible or anything, it just seems weird that the one and only thing in the game that I'm feeling pretty much helpless/clueless about would get made even worse by the patch.)
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On August 28 2010 05:43 sagefreke wrote:
How does the Marauder keep managing to avoid the nerfbat?
Blizzard play Terran.
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On August 28 2010 05:41 crappen wrote:
I dont really get it, they increased the cooldown on warpgate, but this only effects 1 unit, zealot? I thought it didnt matter what unit you warped in, the cooldown would be the same.
Please read the post its only to lots
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EPT
