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On December 07 2010 02:02 Barrin wrote:Honestly don't listen to these people Incontrol... Just because explaining your logic is not your forte does not mean that you do not have sufficient amount of logic behind your position. I personally understand and agree with pretty much all of your positions before you try explaining them, and as you explain them you usually at least touch on exactly what I was thinking about. I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this but for people who already understand the gravity and context of the situation you make a tremendous amount of sense. + Show Spoiler +I've always been pretty good at reading into things though.
InControl is more lucid and logical than people immediately give him credit for. Sometimes approaches an argument from the wrong angle or conflates an issue. But a lot of people do that.
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I really enjoy InControl for the most part.
I just don't know why he has zero ability in arguing about balance. I mean arguments like "fuck you noobs" etc. are funny and not to be taken seriously but... if that's all he got it gets boring.
But yeah great show, always love it when Idra joins the cast!
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On December 07 2010 01:17 lfs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 00:45 jobiasRKD wrote:On December 07 2010 00:35 Shikyo wrote:On December 07 2010 00:22 fush wrote:On December 07 2010 00:16 syllogism wrote:
Everyone on the show is good, but incontrol is the main draw honestly says who? i don't agree with that at all. the show is great because everyone fills a role (minus a regular terran of course). incontrol just happens to be an extremely outspoken and intelligent toss who also seems to attract waves of man love and over-sensitive internet trolls. Mmm, incontrol is a pretty big turn-off for me, personally. He doesn't support his arguments with anything but "I say this so it must be true" and he really isn't funny to me at all. He also argues about stupid things way too much. It's nice that he was against the extended series, but he couldn't support that argument either... So many things he says just seem so baseless. I agree. Two players with experience with the Korean ladder talk about a build predominantly found on the Korean server and inControl's response seems to be to brute force the idea that his experience on the North American ladder trumps all. Not that he doesn't have a point, but he goes about presenting it in a really disappointing way and as a listener, I find it tiring to listen to him. Finally people who agree with me, seems like everywhere I go I see praise for the guy but really I can't stand to listen to him most of the time. He can be funny but it is rare, and a lot of the time he is unqualified to rant and argue about a topic especially with people who are very qualified to rant and argue about something. He has trouble coming to the realization that the NA ladder is not the Korean ladder and it never will be, and the opinion of two high level zergs in Korea holds much more weight than his. Although he does give in on some issues (for ex., the pylon blocking), when he doesn't give in he gets really frustrated and starts rambling about some bullshit. Ironically the bullshit he normally says is just telling other people that what they say is bullshit, with no real argument behind it. Look, if Artosis/IdrA say that FG is a counter to Phoenix then it is - they don't need replays to show it. Stargate builds are much more common on Korea as they said so obviously they have a lot of experience vs Phoenix, and yes in general Zergs on Korea are more skilled than NA Zergs (because the players are generally better independent of race) so whatever the Korean Zergs are doing against Phoenix (FG) is probably a good counter to them. This was also the case when IdrA was on the show a few weeks ago (can't quite remember exactly when, maybe even a month and half ago) and they were talking about how the players in Korea will always be better than foreign players. IdrA made the point that Koreans are better because they have a stronger work ethic and dedication to the game, but iNcontroL relentlessly suggested that foreigners could be just as good if they practiced as hard. But that isn't the point. The point is that they don't practice as hard, so they are worse. It doesn't matter IF foreigners practiced harder, they DON'T. After awhile these types of arguments do get tiring, where iNcontroL is just pounding away at his "argument" when he is either not qualified to make it or it is just blatantly wrong. I am okay with the guy giving his opinion on topics because a lot of what he has to say is valid, he just shouldn't get in arguments that he simply cannot win.
as others already said, their argument was as ridiculous as incontrol's. Saying its happening on korean server so their automatically right is extremely short-sighted. They even said it just started showing up this past week, that's a pretty small window to claim that it isn't going to be countered.
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I'll sum up the argument against incontrol:
Hey Geoff,
Stop being yourself.
Love TL.Net
I'm not going to write a whole several paragraph rant about why you guys are wrong. Cause I just don't care.
Geoff. Stop caring about these people. Be yourself. The podcast wouldn't be this big without you in it. I, for one, appreciate the dedication you have for it.
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I enjoyed Artosis and IdrA laughing at baskinrobbins being there up in the top of the korean ladder... didnt they knew, he is FoxeR? :D
EDIT: have to take it back, at least regarding IdrA, after hear him bitching on FoxeR. Must be hard for Greg to realise that Macro is important, but not everything, and Micro, sense for dynamics is as an important part of the game. Poor, bitter IdrA...
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I just want to say to people who are being super critical of Incontrol's arguments by virtue of them being rooted in personal experience: learning the consequences of these peoples' personal experiences is the entire point of an interface with big names like this. Obviously they won't always align with some theoretical conglomeration of all experiences, and especially never with one specific critic's impression of how things are.
Every other pillar or guest on this show has argued off personal experience more often than not, and have almost always made questionable statements (Day9's 1 base hydra vs pylon cannon wallin, Tyler's assessment of midgame warpgate timings being optimal PvZ vs recent trends of stargate play in Korea, PainUser's DT over banshee comment, IdrA and Artosis tonight on how Korean ladder ZvP is definitive of all ZvP) but somehow, magically they get far less shit for it.
Also the whole point of argumentation and criticism from an academic standpoint is to learn. Ego, insults, and feelings in general are completely removed from any of the helpful consequences of arguing. Think: what the fuck do they do? Nothing. Getting riled up and hurling invective or blind dismissals accomplishes nothing. No one's knowledge is improved in any way. So before formulating (assuming people actually take this step in their) criticism, please at least consider if it's going to be helpful. Anyone with no intent of helping is utterly worthless in this context.
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"At one point we had over 300 000 people watching" (about the showmatch). That can't be true?! :D
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On December 07 2010 02:39 Yusername wrote:
"At one point we had over 300 000 people watching" (about the showmatch). That can't be true?! :D
I think Incontrol was tilting a bit but from what I saw there were over 3k viewers. I just couldn't view because of lag  . It's possible though 300 000 on vods and what not?
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On December 07 2010 02:30 cronican wrote:
I'll sum up the argument against incontrol:
Hey Geoff,
Stop being yourself.
Love TL.Net
I'm not going to write a whole several paragraph rant about why you guys are wrong. Cause I just don't care.
Geoff. Stop caring about these people. Be yourself. The podcast wouldn't be this big without you in it. I, for one, appreciate the dedication you have for it.
No one's saying Incontrol can't be himself, some people are just stating that they personally didn't like the way he approached a few of the debates. If Incontrol wants to read some of feedback he can, but no one's under any illusions that he has any requirement to adhere to it.
I tend to agree with some of the criticism as well. I really like Incontrol, and i'd still say he's one of my favorite people on the cast, but i'm dissapointed in how he approached arguments this time around. I don't even really care whether or not Artosis/Idra/etc were offended, to (some of)the audience it seems classless and a little jarring.
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Honestly,
I'm having a hard time recollecting a moment where InControl was abnormally offensive or classless during this cast. Then again, it is 2.5 hours long.
Is there a specific discussion people are referring to?
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What the hell is everyone whining about?
iNcontrol can be pretty opinionated at times but he was more balanced and level headed than ever in this cast. People need to realize opinions are not always being about right or wrong and that different opinions are important to a debate regardless of how correct those opinions are.
They made some great points this episode like people in general being way to quick to decry things as being imbalanced instead of just viewing it as a challenge that has to be figured out.
Keep up the good work guys, most people really appreciate it.
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Switching topics.
Anyone test the quick phoenix build they were talking about in the cast on PTR yet?
Wonder what Nony could pull off with quick phoenixes against Zerg.
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On December 07 2010 02:39 Yusername wrote:
"At one point we had over 300 000 people watching" (about the showmatch). That can't be true?! :D
No  I heard 3000, but maybe beacuse 300 000 is impossible in any way.
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Another great podcast guys , thnx a lot.
My gripe again is same one. Please try bring on a Terran into the cast especially when ur discussing things like balance changes. We so much needed a terran perceptive with these patch changes. But all things considered , Artosis did a good job bringing in some terran views, Thnx man.
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First time im listening for SOTG. Its very nice show but why inc is so offensive towards artosis? In the first third of the show the guy sounds so juvenile...
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It doesn't matter if you can build phoenix faster. Sure the first phoenix would be out 10s faster, but you are still limited by gas. You are sacrificing stalker/sentry for phoenix.
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On December 07 2010 03:35 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 02:39 Yusername wrote:
"At one point we had over 300 000 people watching" (about the showmatch). That can't be true?! :D No I heard 3000, but maybe beacuse 300 000 is impossible in any way.
There were 3000 on before it even started, I went to sleep then, but at one point they say it was over 9000, I believe that.
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On December 07 2010 03:58 sage_francis wrote:
First time im listening for SOTG. Its very nice show but why inc is so offensive towards artosis? In the first third of the show the guy sounds so juvenile...
I think lots of people don't quite click onto iNControl's humour first time around - the more SotG's you listen to, the more it becomes apparant that a lot of the stuff he says is intended to be taken with a pinch of salt. He's a little unmoderated, but I think that's to his credit; it's just his personality presenting itself, and in absolute fairness (at least to me) it really kinda gives the show a lot of it's character, in much the same way that Day9's approach and character make his show what it is, as much as his valuable insight.
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Can anyone recall any "high-level" PvZ's with fast phoenix builds? I'd like to check em out.
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On December 07 2010 04:31 Defacer wrote:
Can anyone recall any "high-level" PvZ's with fast phoenix builds? I'd like to check em out.
Apparently every Protoss in Korea goes for a stargate Build since a week or so. (Probably since Guineapigs GSL match)
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EPT
