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On June 30 2012 02:52 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 02:49 Shiori wrote:On June 30 2012 02:48 MichaelDonovan wrote:On June 30 2012 02:47 Zach426 wrote:
I just can't believe everyone is still up in arms about all of this. Everyone just needs to go get some rays poolside and relax and realize all of this is petty stuff. Have a beer or three! I think everybody is just bored because there aren't any big tournaments going on right now. That's my theory, at least.  For me, I just don't like seeing people get taken down in front of an audience. I actually really don't like Avilo because I think he's whiny, but I still wouldn't sink to such levels. This. I think alot of people who are angry at us 'complainers' think were angry for other reasons. I think Avilo is worse than Incontrol when it comes to playing this game. His stream is 1/10 of incontrols. He is a pretty horrible person. But like the above guy said. bashing him in front of 10k people (when the people dont know the context) is just an epitome of bad character
So what if I am to suggest that ignoring the possibility of previous context, something you and many of the other complainers clearly did and continue to do, indicts ones character as suspect? What then? You and many others with a bone to pick just come off as belligerent. I mean, I don't even like Avilo, and yet your willing to judge him a "horrible person" and then one line later assert your own brand of character judgement on the show hosts. Ehl oh ehl?
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I really liked QXC's part in episode 72. He should come back more often.
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The discussion in this thread is reminding me of the discussion the on SOTG last night! Oh the irony!
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On June 30 2012 02:52 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 02:49 Shiori wrote:On June 30 2012 02:48 MichaelDonovan wrote:On June 30 2012 02:47 Zach426 wrote:
I just can't believe everyone is still up in arms about all of this. Everyone just needs to go get some rays poolside and relax and realize all of this is petty stuff. Have a beer or three! I think everybody is just bored because there aren't any big tournaments going on right now. That's my theory, at least. For me, I just don't like seeing people get taken down in front of an audience. I actually really don't like Avilo because I think he's whiny, but I still wouldn't sink to such levels. This. I think alot of people who are angry at us 'complainers' think were angry for other reasons. I think Avilo is worse than Incontrol when it comes to playing this game. His stream is 1/10 of incontrols. He is a pretty horrible person. But like the above guy said. bashing him in front of 10k people (when the people dont know the context) is just an epitome of bad character
Avilo asked to be on the show and was being very vocal about it. Although I didn't want him on the show, other people asked for it as well. The whole thing is damned if you do and damned if you dont. If they didn't have Avilo on, he would have continued to complain to his small group of fans, who would have continued to bring up the issue.
I think this falls under: "Careful what you wish for"
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Watching the vod again this is pretty much how it breaks down from an objective perspective:
1) Avilo comes on and immediately tries to call Geoff out and Geoff tries to keep him on track with the TvZ debate. Avilo was trying to use this platform to try and get back at Geoff which is already starting off the wrong way. Whether you agree with Avilo or not, this is not the time to try and argue with Geoff.
2) Avilo and Idra start putting their arguments forth and it's going fairly smoothly.
3) During Idra's first response, Avilo interrupts him without letting him finish and then acts all snide about Luckyfool's blog and how they haven't read it.
4) More arguments are traded more or less with QXC stepping in to clarify a few points.
5) Idra makes the argument about Terran needing to be greedy enough that they have the economy to put down make the tech switch to keep up with zerg and again Avilo clearly interrupts. Avilo gets told to STFU and then he tries to jump back in. This is the 2nd time he's interrupted and he keeps pushing after Idra is clearly being irritated at his interruptions.
6) Avilo tries to twist Idra's words and say that Idra agrees with him when it's obvious that he does not. Idra gets tired of this, calls him out for being bad, and then finishes his point.
7) Avilo jumps back in pretending he's offended that Idra took "cheap shots" at him (while he was intentionally misconstruing Idra's arguments and has interrupted him multiple times) and tries to propose that his argument is what Idra said.
8) Idra tells him that isn't what he said and says he's done discussing this with Avilo.
9) JP cuts Avilo off as Avilo tries to reiterate what he thinks Idra said.
If Avilo wanted to be respected and heard out, he went about it in the wrong way. He knows how Idra is and he was riling him up on purpose. JP cut him off when he realized this wasn't going to go anywhere. That's all there is to this.
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On June 30 2012 02:58 Dosey wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised to see Shiori STILL here pressing F5 14 hours later continuing his smear campaign against the EG players. Give it a rest you lifeless troll, seriously. You have over 50 posts in this thread since lastnight and are still at it. We get it, you don't like EG and JP. There are only so many different ways you can say that before it gets rather annoying and redundant.
Daaaaaang calm down for a sec bro. He obviously went to bed last night and then woke up to start up again. I don't think he's a troll, either. People who simply think differently are not trolling.
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On June 29 2012 22:50 Nekovivie wrote:
They really need a Terran pillar on this show. One with results to back up his arguments.
Obviously qxc plays Terran before someone points it out, but a permanent Terran member would be good.
Why?
It's hardly a balance discussion show.
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On June 30 2012 02:49 Christolight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 01:00 Ballack wrote:
I find it peculiar that people are reacting to how the Idra - Avilo "debate" ended. Avilo was acting like a child trying to put words in Greg's mouth, if someone did that to me in a similar situation, I would have gotten furious. Just saying "that's it I don't want to talk to him anymore" I think was an apt measure to take in that situation. If anyone is surprised of the namecalling and are suddenly taking offense to it, well what can I say, that's how Idra has been for years.
I actually took more offense to how Geoff has been treating Avilo the last couple of weeks. I know Avilo can be quite a character and he can be offensive/act childish to others, I don't think he deserves the bullying he gets from Geoff. Geoff is very good at making jokes about people, and most of the time they are funny and harmless. But Avilo has written in this very thread that he feels he's being treated disrespectfully by Geoff and it was the first thing he took up when he entered the call.
Now I didn't really think very much of it before this week when Geoff numerous times brought up his "Avilo impression". Stuff like that is what really gets to me because it can be so harmful and it is so asinine. Let me first distinguish the impressions Geoff does that's funny and appropriate from this. That are the impressions that targets groups of people. For example his Swedish accent, or German, or even TBs accent as it's really just a British accent. When it's used in such broad terms I don't think it should or does affect anyone, it's all done in good fun and it's funny.
When you target specific people and make fun of them for a specific demeanor or way of speech, it instantly turns into a dickish move. Why is this? Because it targets that person specifically and opens up potential scrutiny towards that person. If this is done to someone who's Geoff's friend and it goes without saying he's just busting his friends' balls, it's ok. But as far as I know Geoff don't know Avilo that well and they are certainly not good friends. This means that Geoff don't have the information needed to know how Avilo feels about being made fun of for his speech impairment. For all Geoff knows Avilo might have been bullied for this earlier in his life and this brings that up to light (Note that I'm making some assumptions here, if they are not true then my targeted point goes out the window). Geoff knows this and fully agrees with me. Why do I say that? Because he made about the same exact point when talking to Destiny about the use of the word "rape", albeit that targets a lot of people while this targets only one person (perhaps other people with similar speech impairments is offended though I don't know). Also, when Geoff made fun of Kellymilkies he apologized after she took offense to it, why is this situation any different? Avilo is a very controversial figure who certainly gets a lot of hate towards him (much of it he is responsible for himself), he does not have a high status in the community, is making fun of his speech at any rate fair or a justified source of enjoyment? Especially when Geoff as a prominent figure in the community does it in front of thousands of people on multiple shows. I don't think it is nice at all, it's actually quite asinine, and I am surprised Geoff doesn't realize this.
/rant
On the other hand, loved the show and I liked to listen to the TvZ discussion, even though I'm a protoss myself. As Idra has hinted at, TvZ and PvZ are very boring and silly match-ups right now, hopefully HotS will change that! Good job!
Good job indeed , but this won't get adressed because it actually makes a good point. It's much easier to respond to someone telling you to go back to gamestop then to someone who has a legit opinion
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On June 30 2012 03:00 Ordained wrote:
I really liked QXC's part in episode 72. He should come back more often.
Yeah I really think he should be a regular host of the show. If he has the time, anyway. Really cool guy.
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On June 30 2012 02:59 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 02:52 ohampatu wrote:On June 30 2012 02:49 Shiori wrote:On June 30 2012 02:48 MichaelDonovan wrote:On June 30 2012 02:47 Zach426 wrote:
I just can't believe everyone is still up in arms about all of this. Everyone just needs to go get some rays poolside and relax and realize all of this is petty stuff. Have a beer or three! I think everybody is just bored because there aren't any big tournaments going on right now. That's my theory, at least. For me, I just don't like seeing people get taken down in front of an audience. I actually really don't like Avilo because I think he's whiny, but I still wouldn't sink to such levels. This. I think alot of people who are angry at us 'complainers' think were angry for other reasons. I think Avilo is worse than Incontrol when it comes to playing this game. His stream is 1/10 of incontrols. He is a pretty horrible person. But like the above guy said. bashing him in front of 10k people (when the people dont know the context) is just an epitome of bad character So what if I am to suggest that ignoring the possibility of previous context, something you and many of the other complainers clearly did and continue to do, indicts ones character as suspect? What then? You and many others with a bone to pick just come off as belligerent. I mean, I don't even like Avilo, and yet your willing to judge him a "horrible person" and then one line later assert your own brand of character judgement on the show hosts. Ehl oh ehl?
Actually. Im judging everyone. Dont think im only judging 1 person. Now should i judge them, prolly not, but thats what we as fans do. We judge the pro's and community figures. Sometimes correctly, other times wrong. And yea, i may be belligerent, i guess it depends on the topic.
Your post is almost incoherent though. You question my character? i didn't bring a person on stream in front of 10k people and make fun of him. I also didn't ignore the question 'why are you being so mean to me' that he asked Geoff that Geoff ignored.
Again though. Your not understanding what i mean. Its that the watchers/community didn't know the context, and just watched it all fold out. Were supposed to take 'he deserved it' as it being ok. Sorry, as a fellow nerd. I dont like seeing people get brought online solely to make fun of him for.
he wasn't brought for tvz, that discussion was past. Incontrol litterally did it just to cause drama. Watch the show, watch incontrol. he put pressure onto JP, JP cracked.
Im sorry im against bringing a person in front of 10k people just to make fun of him is not cool. Avilo didn't deserve it no matter how much shit he causes
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On June 30 2012 03:01 MichaelDonovan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 02:58 Dosey wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised to see Shiori STILL here pressing F5 14 hours later continuing his smear campaign against the EG players. Give it a rest you lifeless troll, seriously. You have over 50 posts in this thread since lastnight and are still at it. We get it, you don't like EG and JP. There are only so many different ways you can say that before it gets rather annoying and redundant. Daaaaaang calm down for a sec bro. He obviously went to bed last night and then woke up to start up again. I don't think he's a troll, either. People who simply think differently are not trolling.
What part of that post showed anger or lack of calmness? I am merely pointing out the fact that he's been littering this thread with his own anti-SotG smear campaign for the last 30 pages and it's rather redundant at this point.
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On June 30 2012 03:03 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 22:50 Nekovivie wrote:
They really need a Terran pillar on this show. One with results to back up his arguments.
Obviously qxc plays Terran before someone points it out, but a permanent Terran member would be good. Why? It's hardly a balance discussion show.
I don't understand the need for a Terran either :|
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To be honest I feel that JP should have cut off IdrA instead of Avilo. I mean... saying those kinds of things in front of 10k people is not good at all, it pretty much ruined the show for me. I don't give a shit about " Idra being Idra " , that guys shouldn't get away with things like that. I also love how biased some people are.
For example, if Nani would have said the same thing we would have a topic about it FULL of people talking trash on him, but with IdrA it doesn't happens. Go figure ^^
<3 SC2 community, always coherent.
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On June 30 2012 01:42 iNcontroL wrote:
We called it. We said this was Mia Rose all over again. A terrible idea amidst an otherwise fine show. So that is on us. But I got to be honest with you: Fuck a lot of you. Fuck you forever. Get all up in arms about Avilo and start trashing IdrA, JP and myself. Asking for us to quit the show and leave SC2. This show isn't earning me or IdrA money. And lately, it has been really fucking annoying actually. We aren't allowed to make mistakes when we discuss shit. We have to give context for everything we say to be careful that some uppity 30 post prick who has been around for 6 months won't run off and try to create drama.
Yeah, guests like Avilo or Mia Rose are 'interesting' because they have novelty value, but unless they have something interesting to say, or the hosts have something interesting to say to them, then it just turns into a bad or awkward discussion.
I kind of felt bad for IdrA, because it felt like you guys were setting him up for a confrontation he really wasn't interested in having with a guy he doesn't actually respect. That's like poking bear with a stick and blaming the bear for smashing the stick.
Meh, live and learn. Great show overall though. QXC should be permanent host.
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On June 30 2012 03:07 BlitzerSC wrote:
To be honest I feel that JP should have cut off IdrA instead of Avilo. I mean... saying those kinds of things in front of 10k people is not good at all, it pretty much ruined the show for me. I don't give a shit about " Idra being Idra " , that guys shouldn't get away with things like that. I also love how biased some people are.
For example, if Nani would have said the same thing we would have a topic about it FULL of people talking trash on him, but with IdrA it doesn't happens. Go figure ^^
<3 SC2 community, always coherent.
did you even watch the episode seems like you missed so much...
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On June 30 2012 03:07 BlitzerSC wrote:
To be honest I feel that JP should have cut off IdrA instead of Avilo. I mean... saying those kinds of things in front of 10k people is not good at all, it pretty much ruined the show for me. I don't give a shit about " Idra being Idra " , that guys shouldn't get away with things like that. I also love how biased some people are.
For example, if Nani would have said the same thing we would have a topic about it FULL of people talking trash on him, but with IdrA it doesn't happens. Go figure ^^
<3 SC2 community, always coherent.
Avilo riled him up and was baiting him. Cutting him off and twisting his words "in front of 10k people" was way more rude and offensive than anything Idra did up until that point.
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On June 29 2012 22:35 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 22:29 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:22 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:19 Elldar wrote:
So, you had to have QXC to say what Avilo was "trying" to say because he had made poor arguments and silly examples (which was so funny that they made JP laugh), when he started to derail everything from a debate he got cut off, what a surprise. How did avilo derail the debate? I agree his arguments weren't that solid, but i think the people telling him to "shut the fuck up" are the ones derailing the debate. No, people telling him shut the fuck up were just stating the fact. Avilo was like a student that decided to teach his teacher. It was irritating and stupid. He was clearly on the show for drama only and that is what we got. Only people complaining in here are either Avilo fanboys (good thing they didn't do this to Destiny :D) or the most hardcore whiners that moved over the that Terran whine topic that was closed recently. I had never even heard of Avilo before this show. And telling a person to shut the fuck up in a debate, no matter how bad one party is doing, is both bad mannered and immature. Also i play protoss, not terran. I have a problem with this kind of behaviour, nothing else. If you look at it as a debate from equals then that is true. And if Idra said to QXC at any point to shut the fuck up I would also be here holding a pitchfork or a torch but to Avilo?! Did you listen to him at all? As I said, it was like when a teacher who obviously knows much more then you tries to teach you something and you start acting like he knows shit and you should teach him what did you expect?! Has never in your schooling years a teacher told one of his students to Shut up?
Well idra isn't his teacher, nor is a top player. And i actually do consider all human beings to be equal. Strange thought, i know.
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To try and bring the topic back to the TvZ discussion...
Some others stated that qxc seemed to have more to say but 'held back' for one reason or another. I don't know whether this is true or not but my observation was that qxc was reluctant to offer his ideas for things that he had not tested himself. It seemed to me that he had some ideas that he was testing with some success or failure but wasn't sure if they would actually hold up.
Anyways I'd like to question some ideas that were brought up...
Idra seems to think that if terran plays 'greedier' than zerg then zerg loses in the end. I question this idea entirely. If zerg can't cheese to win the early game (this is widely accepted I think, with the exception of bling busts which are 50/50 at best) and can't macro hardcore to win the late game then the only option is for mid-game timings? I actually think Terran mid-game is its strongest point, timing attacks and multi-prong aggression before all the tech comes up and people are still trying to establish. (I'd be happy if someone would dispute this)
I just fundamentally didn't agree with how Idra argued how terran could 'counter' all of zergs stuff. I remember in the day9 vs idra argument that Idra WANTED a build that was safe against every build and allowed zerg to macro up freely. Does the 6 queen build + overlord speed not allow you to react? Idra's saying terran just macros up harder. So terran is reacting to the zerg lack of offensive ability by macro'ing hard, now why can't the zerg react to this reaction by macro'ing harder in turn? If terran is going for quick third, why can't the zerg go quick third and quick fourth or even fifth? (Now the above is just theory)
Idra cited that korean zergs are now bringing back the bling bust cause terran's are playing too greedy. Is this not the correct or even an obvious choice? Yeah, I'm showing a greedy build and now my opponent is trying to be even greedier than me; let me stop this by killing him. Obvious, no?
Anyways to summarize the above is zerg just simply impossible? Can't macro, can't cheese, can't win late-game cause that's what I feel like Idra is arguing; theoretically. Zergs just win by luck? Cause terran players are bad? I just can't agree with this zerg is the macro race, zerg should be able to get more resources than terran. If terran is playing greedy than zerg should just play greedy too and I can't believe that any race is better at playing greedy than the zerg. Yeah maybe zerg can get more easily punished for playing greedy than terran; but that's besides the point. If you miscalculated then that's a mistake and you deserve to lose, but I just can't agree with idea that zerg can't out-greedy a terran.
tl;dr - Idra argues that if zerg plays greedy than terran just plays greedier and therefore wins. If zerg can't play greedy then please someone tell me what advantage zergs have. Don't tell me that zerg's can't win because I think there's enough proof currently that zerg is winning a good percentage right now.
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On June 30 2012 03:01 R3DT1D3 wrote:
Watching the vod again this is pretty much how it breaks down from an objective perspective:
1) Avilo comes on and immediately tries to call Geoff out and Geoff tries to keep him on track with the TvZ debate. Avilo was trying to use this platform to try and get back at Geoff which is already starting off the wrong way. Whether you agree with Avilo or not, this is not the time to try and argue with Geoff.
2) Avilo and Idra start putting their arguments forth and it's going fairly smoothly.
3) During Idra's first response, Avilo interrupts him without letting him finish and then acts all snide about Luckyfool's blog and how they haven't read it.
4) More arguments are traded more or less with QXC stepping in to clarify a few points.
5) Idra makes the argument about Terran needing to be greedy enough that they have the economy to put down make the tech switch to keep up with zerg and again Avilo clearly interrupts. Avilo gets told to STFU and then he tries to jump back in. This is the 2nd time he's interrupted and he keeps pushing after Idra is clearly being irritated at his interruptions.
6) Avilo tries to twist Idra's words and say that Idra agrees with him when it's obvious that he does not. Idra gets tired of this, calls him out for being bad, and then finishes his point.
7) Avilo jumps back in pretending he's offended that Idra took "cheap shots" at him (while he was intentionally misconstruing Idra's arguments and has interrupted him multiple times) and tries to propose that his argument is what Idra said.
8) Idra tells him that isn't what he said and says he's done discussing this with Avilo.
9) JP cuts Avilo off as Avilo tries to reiterate what he thinks Idra said.
If Avilo wanted to be respected and heard out, he went about it in the wrong way. He knows how Idra is and he was riling him up on purpose. JP cut him off when he realized this wasn't going to go anywhere. That's all there is to this.
That pretty much sums it up. Avilo knew that Idra was going to blow his top and did it in the most passive agressive way possible. And Idra, like the sun, did the same thing he always does.
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On June 30 2012 03:07 BlitzerSC wrote:
To be honest I feel that JP should have cut off IdrA instead of Avilo. I mean... saying those kinds of things in front of 10k people is not good at all, it pretty much ruined the show for me. I don't give a shit about " Idra being Idra " , that guys shouldn't get away with things like that. I also love how biased some people are.
For example, if Nani would have said the same thing we would have a topic about it FULL of people talking trash on him, but with IdrA it doesn't happens. Go figure ^^
<3 SC2 community, always coherent.
Idra shouldn't be blamed regardless of his outburst. He didn't even want Avilo on the show anyway.
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EPT
