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On June 21 2012 06:02 TerranosauresWrecks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 05:41 sevencck wrote:On June 21 2012 05:06 TerranosauresWrecks wrote:
I want to see a legit Avilo (t) vs incontrol (p)
any other matchup wouldnt make any sense to me
winning any other way wouldnt honestly mean anything... What would victory under those conditions prove exactly? That Incontrol can currently beat Avilo in a bo5 or vice versa? People in here are being kind of unfair to Avilo, incontrol included. Up for debate is the value of a pro Terran's perspective on the current metagame and balance concerns, and Avilo is challenging Incontrol's understanding of Terran in this regard, saying it is not sufficient for a balanced look at the "state of the game." If Incontrol has a poor understanding of Terran, and doesn't know how to play the race beyond a low masters level then he's probably not the steward of the Terran metagame he claims to be. It's not like only Incontrol would be offracing, they both would be. If they both offrace and Avilo crushes Incontrol, it shows Avilo understands the TvP MU from both sides better than Incontrol, it also goes a long way to proving he's less biased, and it (might) demonstrate that Incontrol isn't much of an authority on Terran at all. This is a game, you can claim to know all there is to know about it, but if you haven't faced the frustrations and difficulties associated with the gameplay and the current state of the metagame or balance at a certain level of play then you're really just running your mouth. I don't see why more people don't seem to understand this. Avilo's stakes are higher than Incontrol's. If Incontrol loses a PvT vs. Avilo, it doesn't mean very much, it's just one series, and in fact Incontrol can just turn around and claim it just shows the MU is balanced. If Avilo loses as Protoss vs. Incontrol's Terran (which Incontrol himself claims is bad), then not only can Incontrol claim Avilo doesn't know Protoss very well and shouldn't complain about the TvP MU, he can say he has a better, less biased understanding of the gameplay in the MU from both sides since he plays both at a reasonably high level. If Incontrol loses as Terran to someone he claims he is better than by 10 times offracing as protoss it seriously calls in to question Incontrol's credibility on Terran. Incontrol shouldn't be saying his Terran is bad while scoffing at and disregarding complaints coming from high level Terrans, particularly when he's involved in an important web series that makes him an important figure in the community. It just turns the whole thing into a joke. So maybe Avilo "dodged" lower, less relevant stakes. For the purposes of this discussion, in my opinion, Incontrol is dodging higher, more meaningful stakes. Yeah that makes sense, but I think this overall TvZ balance discussion has mutated into multiple things. I just simply wanted to see an Incontrol vs. Avilo, I just thought it would prove who the better player was ( assuming it was a bo7 or something) , I wasn't looking for anymore than that. That being said you have an interesting point, but in all honesty it still doesn't seem fair to draw any conclusion such as "avilo's opinion matters" just because he beat incontrol in a pvt because it could be potentially skewed heavily in Avilo's favor as I am assuming Incontrol doesn't play terran too much.
Quite correct, but IMO this is the entire basis for the thread over the last several pages. If Incontrol doesn't play Terran too much, it just seems arrogant and presumptuous to believe he can speak to the balance on behalf of Terran pros who are complaining about it.
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On June 21 2012 06:05 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 06:02 TerranosauresWrecks wrote:On June 21 2012 05:41 sevencck wrote:On June 21 2012 05:06 TerranosauresWrecks wrote:
I want to see a legit Avilo (t) vs incontrol (p)
any other matchup wouldnt make any sense to me
winning any other way wouldnt honestly mean anything... What would victory under those conditions prove exactly? That Incontrol can currently beat Avilo in a bo5 or vice versa? People in here are being kind of unfair to Avilo, incontrol included. Up for debate is the value of a pro Terran's perspective on the current metagame and balance concerns, and Avilo is challenging Incontrol's understanding of Terran in this regard, saying it is not sufficient for a balanced look at the "state of the game." If Incontrol has a poor understanding of Terran, and doesn't know how to play the race beyond a low masters level then he's probably not the steward of the Terran metagame he claims to be. It's not like only Incontrol would be offracing, they both would be. If they both offrace and Avilo crushes Incontrol, it shows Avilo understands the TvP MU from both sides better than Incontrol, it also goes a long way to proving he's less biased, and it (might) demonstrate that Incontrol isn't much of an authority on Terran at all. This is a game, you can claim to know all there is to know about it, but if you haven't faced the frustrations and difficulties associated with the gameplay and the current state of the metagame or balance at a certain level of play then you're really just running your mouth. I don't see why more people don't seem to understand this. Avilo's stakes are higher than Incontrol's. If Incontrol loses a PvT vs. Avilo, it doesn't mean very much, it's just one series, and in fact Incontrol can just turn around and claim it just shows the MU is balanced. If Avilo loses as Protoss vs. Incontrol's Terran (which Incontrol himself claims is bad), then not only can Incontrol claim Avilo doesn't know Protoss very well and shouldn't complain about the TvP MU, he can say he has a better, less biased understanding of the gameplay in the MU from both sides since he plays both at a reasonably high level. If Incontrol loses as Terran to someone he claims he is better than by 10 times offracing as protoss it seriously calls in to question Incontrol's credibility on Terran. Incontrol shouldn't be saying his Terran is bad while scoffing at and disregarding complaints coming from high level Terrans, particularly when he's involved in an important web series that makes him an important figure in the community. It just turns the whole thing into a joke. So maybe Avilo "dodged" lower, less relevant stakes. For the purposes of this discussion, in my opinion, Incontrol is dodging higher, more meaningful stakes. Yeah that makes sense, but I think this overall TvZ balance discussion has mutated into multiple things. I just simply wanted to see an Incontrol vs. Avilo, I just thought it would prove who the better player was ( assuming it was a bo7 or something) , I wasn't looking for anymore than that. That being said you have an interesting point, but in all honesty it still doesn't seem fair to draw any conclusion such as "avilo's opinion matters" just because he beat incontrol in a pvt because it could be potentially skewed heavily in Avilo's favor as I am assuming Incontrol doesn't play terran too much. Quite correct, but IMO this is the entire basis for the thread over the last several pages. If Incontrol doesn't play Terran too much, it just seems arrogant and presumptuous to believe he can speak to the balance on behalf of Terran pros who are complaining about it.
Artosis doesn't play T and yet he still knows very much about them.
And why again is Avilo attacking Incontrol, who made a shout out to Avilo's stream and tried to get him on SotG?
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On June 20 2012 14:25 aZealot wrote:
Haha, that Avilo clip is gold! Just hilarious!
Thank you. More people need to see it so people will stop suggesting he should be brought on SoTG or even represent the Terran community in any fashion. SoTG is miles above Avilo's petty whining and screaming.
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On June 21 2012 06:10 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 06:05 sevencck wrote:On June 21 2012 06:02 TerranosauresWrecks wrote:On June 21 2012 05:41 sevencck wrote:On June 21 2012 05:06 TerranosauresWrecks wrote:
I want to see a legit Avilo (t) vs incontrol (p)
any other matchup wouldnt make any sense to me
winning any other way wouldnt honestly mean anything... What would victory under those conditions prove exactly? That Incontrol can currently beat Avilo in a bo5 or vice versa? People in here are being kind of unfair to Avilo, incontrol included. Up for debate is the value of a pro Terran's perspective on the current metagame and balance concerns, and Avilo is challenging Incontrol's understanding of Terran in this regard, saying it is not sufficient for a balanced look at the "state of the game." If Incontrol has a poor understanding of Terran, and doesn't know how to play the race beyond a low masters level then he's probably not the steward of the Terran metagame he claims to be. It's not like only Incontrol would be offracing, they both would be. If they both offrace and Avilo crushes Incontrol, it shows Avilo understands the TvP MU from both sides better than Incontrol, it also goes a long way to proving he's less biased, and it (might) demonstrate that Incontrol isn't much of an authority on Terran at all. This is a game, you can claim to know all there is to know about it, but if you haven't faced the frustrations and difficulties associated with the gameplay and the current state of the metagame or balance at a certain level of play then you're really just running your mouth. I don't see why more people don't seem to understand this. Avilo's stakes are higher than Incontrol's. If Incontrol loses a PvT vs. Avilo, it doesn't mean very much, it's just one series, and in fact Incontrol can just turn around and claim it just shows the MU is balanced. If Avilo loses as Protoss vs. Incontrol's Terran (which Incontrol himself claims is bad), then not only can Incontrol claim Avilo doesn't know Protoss very well and shouldn't complain about the TvP MU, he can say he has a better, less biased understanding of the gameplay in the MU from both sides since he plays both at a reasonably high level. If Incontrol loses as Terran to someone he claims he is better than by 10 times offracing as protoss it seriously calls in to question Incontrol's credibility on Terran. Incontrol shouldn't be saying his Terran is bad while scoffing at and disregarding complaints coming from high level Terrans, particularly when he's involved in an important web series that makes him an important figure in the community. It just turns the whole thing into a joke. So maybe Avilo "dodged" lower, less relevant stakes. For the purposes of this discussion, in my opinion, Incontrol is dodging higher, more meaningful stakes. Yeah that makes sense, but I think this overall TvZ balance discussion has mutated into multiple things. I just simply wanted to see an Incontrol vs. Avilo, I just thought it would prove who the better player was ( assuming it was a bo7 or something) , I wasn't looking for anymore than that. That being said you have an interesting point, but in all honesty it still doesn't seem fair to draw any conclusion such as "avilo's opinion matters" just because he beat incontrol in a pvt because it could be potentially skewed heavily in Avilo's favor as I am assuming Incontrol doesn't play terran too much. Quite correct, but IMO this is the entire basis for the thread over the last several pages. If Incontrol doesn't play Terran too much, it just seems arrogant and presumptuous to believe he can speak to the balance on behalf of Terran pros who are complaining about it. Artosis doesn't play T and yet he still knows very much about them. And why again is Avilo attacking Incontrol, who made a shout out to Avilo's stream and tried to get him on SotG?
Because Avilo is not very smart. When someone does stuff like this on his stream: http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/308157534 he should not be put on any show or represent SC2 in any fashion.
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dear lord i swear everytime i come into this thread, hell any thread on TL, there is drama
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On June 20 2012 23:26 iNcontroL wrote:
I am 10x the player that avilo is..
.
You are not. And if as you admitted your terran is horrible & barely diamond then you should stop saying you know better than 99.9% of the players about the race. Because you don't.
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On June 21 2012 05:38 cavalier117 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 05:32 PesteNoire wrote:On June 21 2012 05:23 cavalier117 wrote:On June 21 2012 05:22 PesteNoire wrote:On June 21 2012 05:17 MaestroSC wrote:
Avilo: let's play a show match cause I finally placed above you in a tournament and I am clearly superior now!
Avilo said he placed higher in a tournamen, but where exactly did he initially challenge Incontrol to a show match? Make stuff up much?He is only pointing out what is known, incontrol is a mediocre 'pro' whos is not a much better than Avilo is as a player. have you actually read of any of the last 20 pages in this thread?... Yes and Incontrol was the first to challenge Avilo. lol, that backfired on you didn't it? i was gonna list the 4-5 posts where Avilo explicitly threw up a (stupid) challenge. then i saw you had a whooping three posts.... then i checked your TL.net profile and saw you joined today.... when the holy hell did TL change their stance and allow people to post on the first day of their account during made? when i joined, new posters had to wait three days and this was the practice for a LONG time. and it was clearly a good idea, bc people like you never posted. and TL was a better place
Incontrol was the one who originally challenged avilo. Maybe you should actually read up properly if it's worth the effort of making a post.
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why cant people stop being stupid ;_;
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The only thing that caught me off guard was Artosis said that hellions isn't able to grant auto-wins after the queen buff, when it only happened when Zerg had no idea how to defend it, and spinecrawlers were a rarity. It was pretty much used to deny creep force the 150 min queen away from the edge of creep with 400 min hellions (Don't quite see why zerg feels entitled to have a queen there with that investment), force larvae to be used on zerglings/roaches and delay the third.
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1. I am (sorta) amazed some people don't recognize satire. The American flag used for the anti-toss buff rant is just short of a blinking SATIRE sign. Note: "Satire" does not mean everything said is a joke. It was a serious complaint proffered in a hyperbolic manner.
2. iNcontroL, are you confident enough to give avilo odds? Make it 2 to 1 on the dollars and a guest appearance on SotG if avilo wins.
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On June 21 2012 06:50 Femari wrote:
dear lord i swear everytime i come into this thread, hell any thread on TL, there is drama
Yup. Nerds with clearly not enough RL stuff to worry about. -_-
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Guess this is the new go-to thread for butthurt kids who want to carry on an argument that they can't find a home for anywhere else because it would be off-topic/not threadworthy lol.
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On June 21 2012 08:21 dvorakftw wrote:
1. I am (sorta) amazed some people don't recognize satire. The American flag used for the anti-toss buff rant is just short of a blinking SATIRE sign. Note: "Satire" does not mean everything said is a joke. It was a serious complaint proffered in a hyperbolic manner.
2. iNcontroL, are you confident enough to give avilo odds? Make it 2 to 1 on the dollars and a guest appearance on SotG if avilo wins.
He said 10x better or 10x the man or something, so the odds should be 10 to 1 right? I don't care either way, as InControl pretty much started yelling duel me bro when Avilo stated his frustration about not being allowed to give Terran perspective on a show that Incontrol is on but has no real authority on who can and cannot be on. The whole situation is a pretty big misunderstanding or cluster fuck if you will; but regardless of what actually happens, SotG had shit on players like avilo in the past, and the fact that they did brush off Terran balance perspective was annoying to more than some.
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On June 20 2012 23:42 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:37 iNcontroL wrote:On June 20 2012 23:29 Quotidian wrote:On June 20 2012 23:26 iNcontroL wrote:this thread never disappoints  Judgements coming from folk who actually have no fucking clue (looking at you quitodian/starstruck) . not exactly impressed with you either Obviously lol, you have been posting about how much you aren't impressed by me all over this forum.. get over it. how about you get over yourself? You're not as big of a deal as you think you are. The way you people are acting against certain players on the podcast is nothing but petty. None of you, not even Idra, is 10x the player of anyone in high masters, that much is blatantly obvious at this point. Anyway, hope the podcast improves soon. Sad to see it go down the (archon) toilet like this
They weren't even trash talking Avilo or anyone from what I recall. Where is this coming from?
On June 21 2012 00:35 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? I'm sorry, playing ability with a race actually has very little to do with being able to discuss them. I watch more terran play, play more terran and interact with higher level terrans than 99.99999999% of the SC2 world.. I think when I speak on terran you can consider my opinion and view point pretty damn informed. If you think I need to ladder with terran to be able to discuss them ok, then you are not really worth talking with anyways. Do you watch football games and get mad at the announcers when they discuss the game? Do they need to have been a goalie to criticize their ability? Do they need to be as good or better? Nope... this is a concept children or idiots on the iternet propogate as a way of making themselves feel special. Sorry, you are not. We are though.. we do this for a living and are lucky enough to have access to people/things/places you never will. Value our opinion or for the fuck sakes GO AWAY because you shouldn't subject yourselves to our banter! and here we have Incontrol's debating skills in practice: "You should consider my opinion as pretty damn valid, because, you know.. I'm Incontrol! Disagree with me? GO AWAY." Classic it's like I should consider Artosis' opinion on tvp mech valid because.. you know.. he's Artosis!
Uhh... what? You literally responded directly to a post of his where he was explaining how he has a lot of experience with terran balance through things like watching and casting games, and of course discussing balance with players like Thorzain and Demuslim. Yes, it is not ideal that he discuss it rather than those players, but he does have a basis for his statements.
I'll never understand how you got "Agree with me because I'm iNcontroL" out of that. It is like you are just trying so hard to be right that you are bending his words.
On June 21 2012 00:47 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:43 takingbackoj wrote:On June 21 2012 00:30 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:27 takingbackoj wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? Ya SoTG owes it to us to put a Terran on the show and none of these pro gamers could even begin to comment on the Terran race with any accuracy. We should get our money back. Oh wait, its free... Did you even read my post? You didn't even get to the second sentence LMAO. I read your post, you say one thing just to mask another. Good job, still holds no water. Not only is Incontrol able to speak wtih a lot of knowledge on the Terran race but so was Idra and also Nony because they are actuall pro gamers. Prefacing your statement with one thing and then continuing on to say another doesnt make your post any less ridiculous. what about the other pro players who contradict Incontrol, Artosis and Idra's opinion of things..? Like all the people mentioned by Azael. Obviously there's more going on here than "I'm qualified to talk and my opinion matters because I'm a pro."
I don't even understand what you are trying to get at here. Let's say Demuslim comes on the show and agrees with Geoff. Then would you still say "Uhhh well... we still need more opinions. What about the people who disagree with Demuslim and iNcontroL?"
It seems like you are saying "Person A has this opinion, but Person B and C have a different opinion, therefore it doesn't make sense that Person A could consider himself qualified since others are contradicting him." Well yeah... that happens with different opinions.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying, because it really doesn't make any sense.
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Long time Avilo watcher and TL member here; I would love, love to see an Avilo-InControl showmatch, not necessarily as a commentary on balance but just for fun.
I think Avilo feels slighted because his name has come up before in passing on the show and it's been in an negative way, implying he's just a balance whiner or not serious player.
While clearly biased and out spoken, Avilo still definitely provides a solid POV about Terran balance and is a smart dude underneath his sometimes abrasive delivery. Not sure if he belongs on SOTG where I imagine he'd get into arguments with everyone but he definitely should be taken seriously as a player.
I challenge people to catch his stream and not recognize that his points, while usually shouted after or during a loss, often have merit.
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I wonder when people will stop equating ability with aptitude/understanding.
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Honestly, listening to the podcast there was nothing...WRONG about anything said about Terrans. Except Idra's 'herp derp they dominated everything'
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On June 21 2012 07:38 DaveVAH wrote:You are not. And if as you admitted your terran is horrible & barely diamond then you should stop saying you know better than 99.9% of the players about the race. Because you don't.
Having seen iNcontroL play Terran at PAX vs tons of random people... he's at least master level TvZ and TvP.
His micro isn't particularly crisp but his macro is probably better than it is when he plays P... he's too used to BW Protoss macro mechanics I think. There're also numerous records of him playing Terran at master+ level in his twitch tv account's vods... he coaches master level Terran players all the time...
Or you could just watch Avilo's stream... and laugh hysterically as he trash talks players while losing to them...
EDIT: For anyone who REALLY wants a laugh, check out his Liquipedia entry... "Avilo was inspired by SlayerSBoxeR and he enjoys defensive macro games" LOL
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Call me crazy but it seems pretty unintelligent to me to draw sweeping conclusions about a balance change only one month after it's been implemented. Have people not learned any lessons after 2 years of WoL? Especially given that Terrans are so accustomed to rely on early and mid game harassment, it makes sense that maybe they haven't developed their lategame as much as the other two races. Do you know how fucking long it took Terrans to discover how good ghosts were against broods and infestors? And I say this as a Terran player.
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On June 21 2012 09:27 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 07:38 DaveVAH wrote:On June 20 2012 23:26 iNcontroL wrote:
I am 10x the player that avilo is..
. You are not. And if as you admitted your terran is horrible & barely diamond then you should stop saying you know better than 99.9% of the players about the race. Because you don't. EDIT: For anyone who REALLY wants a laugh, check out his Liquipedia entry... "Avilo was inspired by SlayerSBoxeR and he enjoys defensive macro games" LOL
Thats fucking funny.
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EPT
