Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 2143

On April 08 2012 03:16 Zaqwe wrote:


This paper says that the use of the word gender as a separate concept from sex only started in the 1970s to suit the political purposes of feminists, and apparently it did not catch on for long and never entered mainstream parlance.



Merriam Webster says the word gender dates back to the 14th century, and defines it as synonymous with sex.


So it seems incorrect to claim that sex and gender used to be different. Rather, the concept that the two are different is a modern redefinition done for political purposes.

Interestingly it shares a common root with the word genus, a word that refers to biology.

On April 08 2012 03:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:

I have no idea how you can read everything you just responded to and not realize that she cares. She directly asks people to respectfully refer to her as female.

Lennoxito and truthbombDROPPER flaunt their ignorant views when they know they are disrespectful. Whether or not they are just playing dumb and acting like they don't understand the nuances does not matter when it is clear that they are purposely disrespectful. If they don't understand something then they can humbly ask for explanations. They can also make it a point to not do exactly what has been clearly stated is disrespectful.

Not only were they disrespectful to Scarlett, they're disrespectful to everyone else and to the mods. One said we're in denial and the other said mods are petty for banning someone for speaking the truth (when in fact it was not the truth but ignorance and deliberate disrespect).

Gamegene is nice enough to give them a hint that can start them on their own research if they really want to but also calls them out on the fact that they're purposely being dicks.

Lennoxito contradicts him.

I'm nice enough to explain the basic difference in 6 words.

And then aebriol swoops down from the Ivory Tower and gives us a study on how academics have increasingly used gender synonymously with sex. However the study isn't relevant because it's over a decade old and it isn't arguing that there aren't nuances when talking about a person like Scarlett or discussing gender issues. It is merely showing how prevalent it was to ignore the possibilities of such nuances whenever possible. In other words, the natural scientists who were using gender synonymously with sex were not denying the existence of the issues that caused gender and sex to be used differently in the first place. Their usage wasn't indicative of their ideology. Some feminists had begun to merge the concepts of gender and sex as both social constructs but again that is not denying the nuances of a person like Scarlett. The whole idea of aebriol linking this study is absurd anyway because he's just trying to point out why some people might be confused but anyone with an ounce of common sense who has read the exchanges between Lennoxito and truthbombDROPPER and everyone else could see that they're not just confused by the notion that gender and sex are not synonyms. As if the reason why Lennoxito straight up contradicts Gamegene is because a bunch of natural scientists began to prefer to use 'gender' in place of 'sex' just as feminists began to strongly emphasize the difference between the two...

Yeah, SOTG thread.

On April 08 2012 03:19 corpuscle wrote:


So are you trying to use semantics and etymology as a flimsy argument to discredit the obvious difference between biological sex and psychological gender, or are you just being pedantic?

On April 08 2012 03:24 Zaqwe wrote:

Tyler, I have always appreciated your nuanced and moderate views, but gender and sex were synonyms for hundreds of years and never stopped being synonyms in common language.

And if the issue is about respect why not respect the views of people who are uncomfortable using gender pronouns they feel are not appropriate? I understand banning people who say things like *fixed* and change a post because clearly they are trolling, but I don't think people should be forced to use certain pronouns.

On April 08 2012 03:36 ropumar wrote:
I am confused.

Let me see if I get it straight:
SOTG next show will invite a born male that identifies psychologically as female called Scarlett that beat Terious, Ddoro, and Demuslim and won IPL sponsoship by Playhem.

Is that right?

On April 08 2012 03:36 ropumar wrote:
I am confused.

Let me see if I get it straight:
SOTG next show will invite a born male that identifies psychologically as female called Scarlett that beat Terious, Ddoro, and Demuslim and won IPL sponsoship by Playhem.

Is that right?

And on another note, when is the next STOG?

On April 08 2012 03:34 corpuscle wrote:


You're only belaboring this semantical argument because you've deluded yourself into thinking it's somehow relevant to the debate on the legitimacy of transgendered people having the right to identify themselves as their true gender. If you didn't have issues with referring to her as a woman, you wouldn't care. The semantics and etymology of the difference between the words "gender" and "sex" are completely irrelevant to the actual matter at hand, we could easily say "biological sex" and "psychological gender" instead but it's easier to just say "sex" and "gender" and assume that people understand what we mean.

And as for "respecting the views of people who are uncomfortable" or whatever, sorry, that's just dumb. It's offensive to refer to a transgendered woman as a man, that's commonly accepted in any civilized and liberal society. Bigotry isn't a view that deserves respect, it's bigotry. Don't expect the mod staff to be okay with your prejudice just because you are.

On April 08 2012 03:57 aebriol wrote:
Meh, I have no problem referring to her as she or recognizing her as a woman. I just thought it interesting that people make such a sharp distinction between two words that most often - also in science - are used to mean the same thing.

I am aware that the words used to mean that, but that's why I also mentioned racism and racial discrimination - two historically different concepts, but 'racism' now includes both 'racism' and 'racial discrimination' as accepted meanings of the word. Words evolve and get new meanings all the time.

Recently the word 'gender' which historically used to mean exactly that - what you psychologically identify as, have evolved to also be used in a biological sense, and used that way both in the scientific community AND in everyday usage.

I mean just going by wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

Today, the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, like feminist literature,[3] and in documents written by organizations such as the World Health Organization (WHO),[4] but in most contexts, even in some areas of social sciences, the meaning of gender has expanded to include "sex" or even to replace the latter word.

Now, fine argue that it's me from my 'ivory tower' if you want, fine with me. I still think it's wrong to make such a sharp distinction and insist that you are wrong when you say it's the same thing when it's used that way these days.

Either way, for me Scarlett is a 'she' and I don't really find it interesting enough in itself to make such a big deal out of it, but hey - apparently lots of people disagree

(I do like to discuss language though, which was why I wrote the post in the first place, but never mind).

On April 08 2012 04:10 Zaqwe wrote:

Historically gender has been synonymous with sex. The paper you posted notes usage in 1860 was synonymous with sex.

The meaning of gender never "expanded" to include sex. They were synonymous until attempts were made to redefine gender as psychological in the 1970s. As noted these attempts to redefine gender have not really caught on outside feminist circles or similar politically motivated groups.

Wikipedia is a very bad source.

On April 08 2012 04:13 HorsemasterK wrote:


Looks like we solved this, the meaning of all words was written in stone on New Years, 1860. All subsequent changes are 'politically motivated.'

On April 08 2012 03:24 Zaqwe wrote:

Tyler, I have always appreciated your nuanced and moderate views, but gender and sex were synonyms for hundreds of years and never stopped being synonyms in common language.

And if the issue is about respect why not respect the views of people who are uncomfortable using gender pronouns they feel are not appropriate? I understand banning people who say things like *fixed* and change a post because clearly they are trolling, but I don't think people should be forced to use certain pronouns.