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You just made me a fan Tyler. <3
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On April 08 2012 03:16 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 01:47 aebriol wrote:On April 08 2012 01:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 08 2012 01:14 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 01:09 Gamegene wrote:On April 08 2012 01:06 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 00:46 Gamegene wrote:On April 08 2012 00:38 Lennoxito wrote:On April 07 2012 17:45 MarcH wrote:On April 07 2012 17:42 seiferoth10 wrote:
Scarlett beat Terious, Ddoro, and Demuslim.
vileIllusion beat JPeg, Zenio, Kiwikaki, Ryung, and Oz.
Why is Scarlett the story of the day again? Because Scarlettt is an unknown and this is her first big tournament. Illusion however is not an unknown and has been to a lot of big tournaments in the past. While his performance here is perhaps better than he has managed previously its not a massive leap up from the unknown and is a continuation of past results but slightly better. so from now on sotg will invite every guy who is able to beat any korean? people are talking about scarlet, she's interesting. one: she's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit. two: she has no team three: she's a girl and four: no one cares about illusion one: he's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit. two: he has no team three: he's a girl and four: no one cares about illusion fixed On April 07 2012 11:44 Gamegene wrote:On April 07 2012 11:02 archides wrote:On April 07 2012 06:35 truthbombDROPPER wrote:
Sorry but scarlett quite clearly used to be or still is male
I'm not sure why everyone is in denial
User was banned for this post. You serious? These mods act so petty. Banning people for something that is clearly true. Scarlett himself said he's born a male. People aren't even throwing insults at him, just asking common questions. 1. Sex =/= Gender 2. Way to be a dick. actually its equal. sex is physical. gender is psychological Well, while true, it's like racism and racial discrimination - used to be two distinct concepts, but then people started to use one (gender / racism) to refer to both, and voila - confusion. http://www.oeb.harvard.edu/faculty/haig/publications_files/04inexorablerise.pdf This paper says that the use of the word gender as a separate concept from sex only started in the 1970s to suit the political purposes of feminists, and apparently it did not catch on for long and never entered mainstream parlance. Show nested quote +The most important factor was the adoption of gender in the 1970s by feminist scholars as a way of distinguishing “socially constructed” aspects of male–female differences (gender) from “biologically determined” aspects (sex). This distinction is now only fitfully respected, and gender is often used as a simple synonym of sex. Merriam Webster says the word gender dates back to the 14th century, and defines it as synonymous with sex. So it seems incorrect to claim that sex and gender used to be different. Rather, the concept that the two are different is a modern redefinition done for political purposes. Interestingly it shares a common root with the word genus, a word that refers to biology.
So are you trying to use semantics and etymology as a flimsy argument to discredit the obvious difference between biological sex and psychological gender, or are you just being pedantic?
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Tyler speaks the truth! If she wants to be referred to as a female, then that should be the end of it.
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On April 08 2012 03:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 02:00 MarcH wrote:On April 08 2012 01:47 aebriol wrote:On April 08 2012 01:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 08 2012 01:14 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 01:09 Gamegene wrote:On April 08 2012 01:06 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 00:46 Gamegene wrote:On April 08 2012 00:38 Lennoxito wrote:On April 07 2012 17:45 MarcH wrote:
[quote]
Because Scarlettt is an unknown and this is her first big tournament. Illusion however is not an unknown and has been to a lot of big tournaments in the past. While his performance here is perhaps better than he has managed previously its not a massive leap up from the unknown and is a continuation of past results but slightly better. so from now on sotg will invite every guy who is able to beat any korean? people are talking about scarlet, she's interesting. one: she's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit. two: she has no team three: she's a girl and four: no one cares about illusion one: he's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit. two: he has no team three: he's a girl and four: no one cares about illusion fixed On April 07 2012 11:44 Gamegene wrote:On April 07 2012 11:02 archides wrote:On April 07 2012 06:35 truthbombDROPPER wrote:
Sorry but scarlett quite clearly used to be or still is male
I'm not sure why everyone is in denial
User was banned for this post. You serious? These mods act so petty. Banning people for something that is clearly true. Scarlett himself said he's born a male. People aren't even throwing insults at him, just asking common questions. 1. Sex =/= Gender 2. Way to be a dick. actually its equal. sex is physical. gender is psychological Well, while true, it's like racism and racial discrimination - used to be two distinct concepts, but then people started to use one (gender / racism) to refer to both, and voila - confusion. http://www.oeb.harvard.edu/faculty/haig/publications_files/04inexorablerise.pdf Im still confused as to why this is an issue? So she is transgender so what who really cares?. I have no idea how you can read everything you just responded to and not realize that she cares. She directly asks people to respectfully refer to her as female. Lennoxito and truthbombDROPPER flaunt their ignorant views when they know they are disrespectful. Whether or not they are just playing dumb and acting like they don't understand the nuances does not matter when it is clear that they are purposely disrespectful. If they don't understand something then they can humbly ask for explanations. They can also make it a point to not do exactly what has been clearly stated is disrespectful. Not only were they disrespectful to Scarlett, they're disrespectful to everyone else and to the mods. One said we're in denial and the other said mods are petty for banning someone for speaking the truth (when in fact it was not the truth but ignorance and deliberate disrespect). Gamegene is nice enough to give them a hint that can start them on their own research if they really want to but also calls them out on the fact that they're purposely being dicks. Lennoxito contradicts him. I'm nice enough to explain the basic difference in 6 words. And then aebriol swoops down from the Ivory Tower and gives us a study on how academics have increasingly used gender synonymously with sex. However the study isn't relevant because it's over a decade old and it isn't arguing that there aren't nuances when talking about a person like Scarlett or discussing gender issues. It is merely showing how prevalent it was to ignore the possibilities of such nuances whenever possible. In other words, the natural scientists who were using gender synonymously with sex were not denying the existence of the issues that caused gender and sex to be used differently in the first place. Their usage wasn't indicative of their ideology. Some feminists had begun to merge the concepts of gender and sex as both social constructs but again that is not denying the nuances of a person like Scarlett. The whole idea of aebriol linking this study is absurd anyway because he's just trying to point out why some people might be confused but anyone with an ounce of common sense who has read the exchanges between Lennoxito and truthbombDROPPER and everyone else could see that they're not just confused by the notion that gender and sex are not synonyms. As if the reason why Lennoxito straight up contradicts Gamegene is because a bunch of natural scientists began to prefer to use 'gender' in place of 'sex' just as feminists began to strongly emphasize the difference between the two... Yeah, SOTG thread.
Tyler, I have always appreciated your nuanced and moderate views, but gender and sex were synonyms for hundreds of years and never stopped being synonyms in common language.
And if the issue is about respect why not respect the views of people who are uncomfortable using gender pronouns they feel are not appropriate? I understand banning people who say things like *fixed* and change a post because clearly they are trolling, but I don't think people should be forced to use certain pronouns.
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On April 08 2012 03:19 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:16 Zaqwe wrote:On April 08 2012 01:47 aebriol wrote:On April 08 2012 01:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 08 2012 01:14 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 01:09 Gamegene wrote:On April 08 2012 01:06 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 00:46 Gamegene wrote:On April 08 2012 00:38 Lennoxito wrote:On April 07 2012 17:45 MarcH wrote:
[quote]
Because Scarlettt is an unknown and this is her first big tournament. Illusion however is not an unknown and has been to a lot of big tournaments in the past. While his performance here is perhaps better than he has managed previously its not a massive leap up from the unknown and is a continuation of past results but slightly better. so from now on sotg will invite every guy who is able to beat any korean? people are talking about scarlet, she's interesting. one: she's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit. two: she has no team three: she's a girl and four: no one cares about illusion one: he's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit. two: he has no team three: he's a girl and four: no one cares about illusion fixed On April 07 2012 11:44 Gamegene wrote:On April 07 2012 11:02 archides wrote:On April 07 2012 06:35 truthbombDROPPER wrote:
Sorry but scarlett quite clearly used to be or still is male
I'm not sure why everyone is in denial
User was banned for this post. You serious? These mods act so petty. Banning people for something that is clearly true. Scarlett himself said he's born a male. People aren't even throwing insults at him, just asking common questions. 1. Sex =/= Gender 2. Way to be a dick. actually its equal. sex is physical. gender is psychological Well, while true, it's like racism and racial discrimination - used to be two distinct concepts, but then people started to use one (gender / racism) to refer to both, and voila - confusion. http://www.oeb.harvard.edu/faculty/haig/publications_files/04inexorablerise.pdf This paper says that the use of the word gender as a separate concept from sex only started in the 1970s to suit the political purposes of feminists, and apparently it did not catch on for long and never entered mainstream parlance. The most important factor was the adoption of gender in the 1970s by feminist scholars as a way of distinguishing “socially constructed” aspects of male–female differences (gender) from “biologically determined” aspects (sex). This distinction is now only fitfully respected, and gender is often used as a simple synonym of sex. Merriam Webster says the word gender dates back to the 14th century, and defines it as synonymous with sex. 1gen·der noun \ˈjen-dər\ 2 a : sex <the feminine gender> Middle English gendre, from Anglo-French genre, gendre, from Latin gener-, genus birth, race, kind, gender — more at kin First Known Use: 14th century http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genderSo it seems incorrect to claim that sex and gender used to be different. Rather, the concept that the two are different is a modern redefinition done for political purposes. Interestingly it shares a common root with the word genus, a word that refers to biology. So are you trying to use semantics and etymology as a flimsy argument to discredit the obvious difference between biological sex and psychological gender, or are you just being pedantic?
Perhaps these differences are not so obvious considering there was never even a word to describe what you are referring to until the 1970s, and they had to repurpose an existing word rather than creating a suitable new one.
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On April 08 2012 03:24 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 08 2012 02:00 MarcH wrote:On April 08 2012 01:47 aebriol wrote:On April 08 2012 01:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 08 2012 01:14 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 01:09 Gamegene wrote:On April 08 2012 01:06 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 00:46 Gamegene wrote:On April 08 2012 00:38 Lennoxito wrote:
[quote]
so from now on sotg will invite every guy who is able to beat any korean? people are talking about scarlet, she's interesting. one: she's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit. two: she has no team three: she's a girl and four: no one cares about illusion one: he's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit. two: he has no team three: he's a girl and four: no one cares about illusion fixed On April 07 2012 11:44 Gamegene wrote:On April 07 2012 11:02 archides wrote:On April 07 2012 06:35 truthbombDROPPER wrote:
Sorry but scarlett quite clearly used to be or still is male
I'm not sure why everyone is in denial
User was banned for this post. You serious? These mods act so petty. Banning people for something that is clearly true. Scarlett himself said he's born a male. People aren't even throwing insults at him, just asking common questions. 1. Sex =/= Gender 2. Way to be a dick. actually its equal. sex is physical. gender is psychological Well, while true, it's like racism and racial discrimination - used to be two distinct concepts, but then people started to use one (gender / racism) to refer to both, and voila - confusion. http://www.oeb.harvard.edu/faculty/haig/publications_files/04inexorablerise.pdf Im still confused as to why this is an issue? So she is transgender so what who really cares?. I have no idea how you can read everything you just responded to and not realize that she cares. She directly asks people to respectfully refer to her as female. Lennoxito and truthbombDROPPER flaunt their ignorant views when they know they are disrespectful. Whether or not they are just playing dumb and acting like they don't understand the nuances does not matter when it is clear that they are purposely disrespectful. If they don't understand something then they can humbly ask for explanations. They can also make it a point to not do exactly what has been clearly stated is disrespectful. Not only were they disrespectful to Scarlett, they're disrespectful to everyone else and to the mods. One said we're in denial and the other said mods are petty for banning someone for speaking the truth (when in fact it was not the truth but ignorance and deliberate disrespect). Gamegene is nice enough to give them a hint that can start them on their own research if they really want to but also calls them out on the fact that they're purposely being dicks. Lennoxito contradicts him. I'm nice enough to explain the basic difference in 6 words. And then aebriol swoops down from the Ivory Tower and gives us a study on how academics have increasingly used gender synonymously with sex. However the study isn't relevant because it's over a decade old and it isn't arguing that there aren't nuances when talking about a person like Scarlett or discussing gender issues. It is merely showing how prevalent it was to ignore the possibilities of such nuances whenever possible. In other words, the natural scientists who were using gender synonymously with sex were not denying the existence of the issues that caused gender and sex to be used differently in the first place. Their usage wasn't indicative of their ideology. Some feminists had begun to merge the concepts of gender and sex as both social constructs but again that is not denying the nuances of a person like Scarlett. The whole idea of aebriol linking this study is absurd anyway because he's just trying to point out why some people might be confused but anyone with an ounce of common sense who has read the exchanges between Lennoxito and truthbombDROPPER and everyone else could see that they're not just confused by the notion that gender and sex are not synonyms. As if the reason why Lennoxito straight up contradicts Gamegene is because a bunch of natural scientists began to prefer to use 'gender' in place of 'sex' just as feminists began to strongly emphasize the difference between the two... Yeah, SOTG thread. Tyler, I have always appreciated your nuanced and moderate views, but gender and sex were synonyms for hundreds of years and never stopped being synonyms in common language. And if the issue is about respect why not respect the views of people who are uncomfortable using gender pronouns they feel are not appropriate? I understand banning people who say things like *fixed* and change a post because clearly they are trolling, but I don't think people should be forced to use certain pronouns.
You're only belaboring this semantical argument because you've deluded yourself into thinking it's somehow relevant to the debate on the legitimacy of transgendered people having the right to identify themselves as their true gender. If you didn't have issues with referring to her as a woman, you wouldn't care. The semantics and etymology of the difference between the words "gender" and "sex" are completely irrelevant to the actual matter at hand, we could easily say "biological sex" and "psychological gender" instead but it's easier to just say "sex" and "gender" and assume that people understand what we mean.
And as for "respecting the views of people who are uncomfortable" or whatever, sorry, that's just dumb. It's offensive to refer to a transgendered woman as a man, that's commonly accepted in any civilized and liberal society. Bigotry isn't a view that deserves respect, it's bigotry. Don't expect the mod staff to be okay with your prejudice just because you are.
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I am confused.
Let me see if I get it straight:
SOTG next show will invite a born male that identifies psychologically as female called Scarlett that beat Terious, Ddoro, and Demuslim and won IPL sponsoship by Playhem.
Is that right?
And on another note, when is the next STOG?
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I don't get what the big deal is with you guys. If she wants to be called a girl, let her. It doesn't hurt nor bother me at all, why is it bothering you all so much? Just move on and stop creating drama out of the little things on go on within the starcraft community. Everytime something small happens I feel like im back in high school with all the girls running around creating this drama for no reason.
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On April 08 2012 03:36 ropumar wrote:
I am confused.
Let me see if I get it straight:
SOTG next show will invite a born male that identifies psychologically as female called Scarlett that beat Terious, Ddoro, and Demuslim and won IPL sponsoship by Playhem.
Is that right?
And some people are going out of their way to be bothered by it.
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On April 08 2012 03:36 ropumar wrote:
I am confused.
Let me see if I get it straight:
SOTG next show will invite a born male that identifies psychologically as female called Scarlett that beat Terious, Ddoro, and Demuslim and won IPL sponsoship by Playhem.
Is that right?
And on another note, when is the next STOG?
They haven't confirmed that she'll be on, some people are asking them to bring her on.
And the next show is tomorrow at 14:30 GMT (+00:00).
edit: stupid DST.
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Things I care less about than what pronoun to call a good non-pro StarCraft player:
-Heat magazine
-"Auras"
-Broccoli
-Birdwatching
Hm. . .Yep, I think that's it.
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Wow, big discussion . First let me start by saying that I watch and enjoy each SotG. Also, without SotG I would not be half as familiar with Day9, InControl, Tyler, JP, Artosis, etc. And that is an important point to remember.
The show might not generate direct revenue, but it is a very good platform to reach new people, create goodwill and popularity. I hope the hosts of the show are aware that this might even be more valuable than charging for the show directly. Because when more people know you, you get invited for events as a caster, there are more people rooting for you, more people watch your personal stream, etc. etc. So yes, you are not charging, but you are all monetizing indirectly as hosts.
I can state as a fact that this show was an important part of why I started watching and paying for tournaments, because it gets you familiar with some of the personalities in the sc2 scene. I would probably not open Tylers and InControls stream if I did not know them from SotG (stopped watching Day[9] a while ago, but that is not important for this discussion).
So now that SotG is not a reliable source of entertainment, I start looking for other sources of entertainment, for example, Live on Three, or smaller tournaments. This draws my focus to other players and casters and less to the hosts of SotG. I just hope that the hosts acknowledge that the show is also helping them to reach people, and that by putting less effort in the show, there might be less people in the long term who actively follow them on tournaments, streams, and shows.
So great show, great group of people running it, I just hope you still see the value of the show, even though it is free .
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Meh, I have no problem referring to her as she or recognizing her as a woman. I just thought it interesting that people make such a sharp distinction between two words that most often - also in science - are used to mean the same thing.
I am aware that the words used to mean that, but that's why I also mentioned racism and racial discrimination - two historically different concepts, but 'racism' now includes both 'racism' and 'racial discrimination' as accepted meanings of the word. Words evolve and get new meanings all the time.
Recently the word 'gender' which historically used to mean exactly that - what you psychologically identify as, have evolved to also be used in a biological sense, and used that way both in the scientific community AND in everyday usage.
I mean just going by wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
Today, the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, like feminist literature,[3] and in documents written by organizations such as the World Health Organization (WHO),[4] but in most contexts, even in some areas of social sciences, the meaning of gender has expanded to include "sex" or even to replace the latter word.
Now, fine argue that it's me from my 'ivory tower' if you want, fine with me. I still think it's wrong to make such a sharp distinction and insist that you are wrong when you say it's the same thing when it's used that way these days.
Either way, for me Scarlett is a 'she' and I don't really find it interesting enough in itself to make such a big deal out of it, but hey - apparently lots of people disagree 
(I do like to discuss language though, which was why I wrote the post in the first place, but never mind).
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On April 08 2012 03:34 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:24 Zaqwe wrote:On April 08 2012 03:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 08 2012 02:00 MarcH wrote:On April 08 2012 01:47 aebriol wrote:On April 08 2012 01:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 08 2012 01:14 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 01:09 Gamegene wrote:On April 08 2012 01:06 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 00:46 Gamegene wrote:
[quote]
people are talking about scarlet, she's interesting.
one: she's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit.
two: she has no team
three: she's a girl
and four: no one cares about illusion one: he's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit. two: he has no team three: he's a girl and four: no one cares about illusion fixed On April 07 2012 11:44 Gamegene wrote:On April 07 2012 11:02 archides wrote:
[quote]
You serious? These mods act so petty. Banning people for something that is clearly true. Scarlett himself said he's born a male. People aren't even throwing insults at him, just asking common questions.
1. Sex =/= Gender 2. Way to be a dick. actually its equal. sex is physical. gender is psychological Well, while true, it's like racism and racial discrimination - used to be two distinct concepts, but then people started to use one (gender / racism) to refer to both, and voila - confusion. http://www.oeb.harvard.edu/faculty/haig/publications_files/04inexorablerise.pdf Im still confused as to why this is an issue? So she is transgender so what who really cares?. I have no idea how you can read everything you just responded to and not realize that she cares. She directly asks people to respectfully refer to her as female. Lennoxito and truthbombDROPPER flaunt their ignorant views when they know they are disrespectful. Whether or not they are just playing dumb and acting like they don't understand the nuances does not matter when it is clear that they are purposely disrespectful. If they don't understand something then they can humbly ask for explanations. They can also make it a point to not do exactly what has been clearly stated is disrespectful. Not only were they disrespectful to Scarlett, they're disrespectful to everyone else and to the mods. One said we're in denial and the other said mods are petty for banning someone for speaking the truth (when in fact it was not the truth but ignorance and deliberate disrespect). Gamegene is nice enough to give them a hint that can start them on their own research if they really want to but also calls them out on the fact that they're purposely being dicks. Lennoxito contradicts him. I'm nice enough to explain the basic difference in 6 words. And then aebriol swoops down from the Ivory Tower and gives us a study on how academics have increasingly used gender synonymously with sex. However the study isn't relevant because it's over a decade old and it isn't arguing that there aren't nuances when talking about a person like Scarlett or discussing gender issues. It is merely showing how prevalent it was to ignore the possibilities of such nuances whenever possible. In other words, the natural scientists who were using gender synonymously with sex were not denying the existence of the issues that caused gender and sex to be used differently in the first place. Their usage wasn't indicative of their ideology. Some feminists had begun to merge the concepts of gender and sex as both social constructs but again that is not denying the nuances of a person like Scarlett. The whole idea of aebriol linking this study is absurd anyway because he's just trying to point out why some people might be confused but anyone with an ounce of common sense who has read the exchanges between Lennoxito and truthbombDROPPER and everyone else could see that they're not just confused by the notion that gender and sex are not synonyms. As if the reason why Lennoxito straight up contradicts Gamegene is because a bunch of natural scientists began to prefer to use 'gender' in place of 'sex' just as feminists began to strongly emphasize the difference between the two... Yeah, SOTG thread. Tyler, I have always appreciated your nuanced and moderate views, but gender and sex were synonyms for hundreds of years and never stopped being synonyms in common language. And if the issue is about respect why not respect the views of people who are uncomfortable using gender pronouns they feel are not appropriate? I understand banning people who say things like *fixed* and change a post because clearly they are trolling, but I don't think people should be forced to use certain pronouns. You're only belaboring this semantical argument because you've deluded yourself into thinking it's somehow relevant to the debate on the legitimacy of transgendered people having the right to identify themselves as their true gender. If you didn't have issues with referring to her as a woman, you wouldn't care. The semantics and etymology of the difference between the words "gender" and "sex" are completely irrelevant to the actual matter at hand, we could easily say "biological sex" and "psychological gender" instead but it's easier to just say "sex" and "gender" and assume that people understand what we mean. And as for "respecting the views of people who are uncomfortable" or whatever, sorry, that's just dumb. It's offensive to refer to a transgendered woman as a man, that's commonly accepted in any civilized and liberal society. Bigotry isn't a view that deserves respect, it's bigotry. Don't expect the mod staff to be okay with your prejudice just because you are.
I don't think you understand. I don't care. You can refer to Scarlett with whatever pronouns or honorifics you want, it doesn't bother me.
I only commented because people were chiding others on their supposed lack of understanding of the words gender and sex, when in fact their understanding of the word is exactly that which has been commonly accepted for centuries and is still commonly accepted.
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On April 08 2012 03:57 aebriol wrote:Meh, I have no problem referring to her as she or recognizing her as a woman. I just thought it interesting that people make such a sharp distinction between two words that most often - also in science - are used to mean the same thing. I am aware that the words used to mean that, but that's why I also mentioned racism and racial discrimination - two historically different concepts, but 'racism' now includes both 'racism' and 'racial discrimination' as accepted meanings of the word. Words evolve and get new meanings all the time. Recently the word 'gender' which historically used to mean exactly that - what you psychologically identify as, have evolved to also be used in a biological sense, and used that way both in the scientific community AND in everyday usage. I mean just going by wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GenderToday, the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, like feminist literature,[3] and in documents written by organizations such as the World Health Organization (WHO),[4] but in most contexts, even in some areas of social sciences, the meaning of gender has expanded to include "sex" or even to replace the latter word.Now, fine argue that it's me from my 'ivory tower' if you want, fine with me. I still think it's wrong to make such a sharp distinction and insist that you are wrong when you say it's the same thing when it's used that way these days. Either way, for me Scarlett is a 'she' and I don't really find it interesting enough in itself to make such a big deal out of it, but hey - apparently lots of people disagree (I do like to discuss language though, which was why I wrote the post in the first place, but never mind).
Historically gender has been synonymous with sex. The paper you posted notes usage in 1860 was synonymous with sex.
The meaning of gender never "expanded" to include sex. They were synonymous until attempts were made to redefine gender as psychological in the 1970s. As noted these attempts to redefine gender have not really caught on outside feminist circles or similar politically motivated groups.
Wikipedia is a very bad source.
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On April 08 2012 04:10 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:57 aebriol wrote:Meh, I have no problem referring to her as she or recognizing her as a woman. I just thought it interesting that people make such a sharp distinction between two words that most often - also in science - are used to mean the same thing. I am aware that the words used to mean that, but that's why I also mentioned racism and racial discrimination - two historically different concepts, but 'racism' now includes both 'racism' and 'racial discrimination' as accepted meanings of the word. Words evolve and get new meanings all the time. Recently the word 'gender' which historically used to mean exactly that - what you psychologically identify as, have evolved to also be used in a biological sense, and used that way both in the scientific community AND in everyday usage. I mean just going by wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GenderToday, the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, like feminist literature,[3] and in documents written by organizations such as the World Health Organization (WHO),[4] but in most contexts, even in some areas of social sciences, the meaning of gender has expanded to include "sex" or even to replace the latter word.Now, fine argue that it's me from my 'ivory tower' if you want, fine with me. I still think it's wrong to make such a sharp distinction and insist that you are wrong when you say it's the same thing when it's used that way these days. Either way, for me Scarlett is a 'she' and I don't really find it interesting enough in itself to make such a big deal out of it, but hey - apparently lots of people disagree (I do like to discuss language though, which was why I wrote the post in the first place, but never mind). Historically gender has been synonymous with sex. The paper you posted notes usage in 1860 was synonymous with sex. The meaning of gender never "expanded" to include sex. They were synonymous until attempts were made to redefine gender as psychological in the 1970s. As noted these attempts to redefine gender have not really caught on outside feminist circles or similar politically motivated groups. Wikipedia is a very bad source.
Looks like we solved this, the meaning of all words was written in stone on New Years, 1860. All subsequent changes are 'politically motivated.'
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Stop everything.
There's a tranny pro SC2 player??? Awesome.
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On April 08 2012 04:13 HorsemasterK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 04:10 Zaqwe wrote:On April 08 2012 03:57 aebriol wrote:Meh, I have no problem referring to her as she or recognizing her as a woman. I just thought it interesting that people make such a sharp distinction between two words that most often - also in science - are used to mean the same thing. I am aware that the words used to mean that, but that's why I also mentioned racism and racial discrimination - two historically different concepts, but 'racism' now includes both 'racism' and 'racial discrimination' as accepted meanings of the word. Words evolve and get new meanings all the time. Recently the word 'gender' which historically used to mean exactly that - what you psychologically identify as, have evolved to also be used in a biological sense, and used that way both in the scientific community AND in everyday usage. I mean just going by wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GenderToday, the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, like feminist literature,[3] and in documents written by organizations such as the World Health Organization (WHO),[4] but in most contexts, even in some areas of social sciences, the meaning of gender has expanded to include "sex" or even to replace the latter word.Now, fine argue that it's me from my 'ivory tower' if you want, fine with me. I still think it's wrong to make such a sharp distinction and insist that you are wrong when you say it's the same thing when it's used that way these days. Either way, for me Scarlett is a 'she' and I don't really find it interesting enough in itself to make such a big deal out of it, but hey - apparently lots of people disagree (I do like to discuss language though, which was why I wrote the post in the first place, but never mind). Historically gender has been synonymous with sex. The paper you posted notes usage in 1860 was synonymous with sex. The meaning of gender never "expanded" to include sex. They were synonymous until attempts were made to redefine gender as psychological in the 1970s. As noted these attempts to redefine gender have not really caught on outside feminist circles or similar politically motivated groups. Wikipedia is a very bad source. Looks like we solved this, the meaning of all words was written in stone on New Years, 1860. All subsequent changes are 'politically motivated.'
The meaning of words can change over time, but due to how they are commonly used and not by political mandate.
You are welcome to use the new-age definition which separates gender and sex if you want. I only take issue with people claiming this modern politically motivated redefinition--a definition which never entered common parlance--is historically correct, or that people using sex and gender interchangably have somehow mixed them up.
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typical sotg thread where irrelevant drama creates more irrelevant drama. the problem could be solved by nobody talking about it and ignoring the trolls but some people take everything so seriously so that just wont happen. sucks that i am being hypocritical by pointing this out....lol
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On April 08 2012 03:24 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 08 2012 02:00 MarcH wrote:On April 08 2012 01:47 aebriol wrote:On April 08 2012 01:41 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 08 2012 01:14 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 01:09 Gamegene wrote:On April 08 2012 01:06 Lennoxito wrote:On April 08 2012 00:46 Gamegene wrote:On April 08 2012 00:38 Lennoxito wrote:
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so from now on sotg will invite every guy who is able to beat any korean? people are talking about scarlet, she's interesting. one: she's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit. two: she has no team three: she's a girl and four: no one cares about illusion one: he's transgendered and like it or not that makes people raise their eyebrows a bit. two: he has no team three: he's a girl and four: no one cares about illusion fixed On April 07 2012 11:44 Gamegene wrote:On April 07 2012 11:02 archides wrote:On April 07 2012 06:35 truthbombDROPPER wrote:
Sorry but scarlett quite clearly used to be or still is male
I'm not sure why everyone is in denial
User was banned for this post. You serious? These mods act so petty. Banning people for something that is clearly true. Scarlett himself said he's born a male. People aren't even throwing insults at him, just asking common questions. 1. Sex =/= Gender 2. Way to be a dick. actually its equal. sex is physical. gender is psychological Well, while true, it's like racism and racial discrimination - used to be two distinct concepts, but then people started to use one (gender / racism) to refer to both, and voila - confusion. http://www.oeb.harvard.edu/faculty/haig/publications_files/04inexorablerise.pdf Im still confused as to why this is an issue? So she is transgender so what who really cares?. I have no idea how you can read everything you just responded to and not realize that she cares. She directly asks people to respectfully refer to her as female. Lennoxito and truthbombDROPPER flaunt their ignorant views when they know they are disrespectful. Whether or not they are just playing dumb and acting like they don't understand the nuances does not matter when it is clear that they are purposely disrespectful. If they don't understand something then they can humbly ask for explanations. They can also make it a point to not do exactly what has been clearly stated is disrespectful. Not only were they disrespectful to Scarlett, they're disrespectful to everyone else and to the mods. One said we're in denial and the other said mods are petty for banning someone for speaking the truth (when in fact it was not the truth but ignorance and deliberate disrespect). Gamegene is nice enough to give them a hint that can start them on their own research if they really want to but also calls them out on the fact that they're purposely being dicks. Lennoxito contradicts him. I'm nice enough to explain the basic difference in 6 words. And then aebriol swoops down from the Ivory Tower and gives us a study on how academics have increasingly used gender synonymously with sex. However the study isn't relevant because it's over a decade old and it isn't arguing that there aren't nuances when talking about a person like Scarlett or discussing gender issues. It is merely showing how prevalent it was to ignore the possibilities of such nuances whenever possible. In other words, the natural scientists who were using gender synonymously with sex were not denying the existence of the issues that caused gender and sex to be used differently in the first place. Their usage wasn't indicative of their ideology. Some feminists had begun to merge the concepts of gender and sex as both social constructs but again that is not denying the nuances of a person like Scarlett. The whole idea of aebriol linking this study is absurd anyway because he's just trying to point out why some people might be confused but anyone with an ounce of common sense who has read the exchanges between Lennoxito and truthbombDROPPER and everyone else could see that they're not just confused by the notion that gender and sex are not synonyms. As if the reason why Lennoxito straight up contradicts Gamegene is because a bunch of natural scientists began to prefer to use 'gender' in place of 'sex' just as feminists began to strongly emphasize the difference between the two... Yeah, SOTG thread. Tyler, I have always appreciated your nuanced and moderate views, but gender and sex were synonyms for hundreds of years and never stopped being synonyms in common language. And if the issue is about respect why not respect the views of people who are uncomfortable using gender pronouns they feel are not appropriate? I understand banning people who say things like *fixed* and change a post because clearly they are trolling, but I don't think people should be forced to use certain pronouns.
Are you for real? I'm male, if people start referring to me as "Her", eventually I will be offended. If Scarlett wants to be referred to as female, then it's not a choice of taste which pronoun you use, you use the pronoun that is fucking appropriate to her gender. Technically, you are forced to use certain (fitting) pronouns by the rules of social life. And it does not matter one ounce what you want, what you think of the whole matter or if you even accept her choices in life.
Of course, you might still make a stand. But don't be surprised if Scarlett doesn't invite you to her MLG Winner celebration party! Go Scarlett! :D
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EPT
