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On August 14 2010 05:32 Reborn8u wrote:
I love pvp, it only devolves when people close their mind and don't experiment.
Prisms are nuts in pvp. You can choose to harrass at a moments notice and then beam up the stalkers you warped in fly off and add them to your army or do another harrass twice as big. Big immortal rushes, colossus, blink rushes and zeolot rushes can be effective when timed well. Many times I will do something like an immortal into expo timing that works very well and provides an entire range of possible late game techs. Just make it your goal to get past early game and hit that 2 base mid game and your protoss matches will get very interesting. 3gate or 4gate are just openers, the scouting and decisions you make after your at that point is what you should focus on.
If you find PVP boring and devolved, SPICE IT UP!
Bullshit. You are dead before you can get out a single unit that is higher than cybercore.
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On August 14 2010 05:32 Reborn8u wrote:
I love pvp, it only devolves when people close their mind and don't experiment.
Prisms are nuts in pvp. You can choose to harrass at a moments notice and then beam up the stalkers you warped in fly off and add them to your army or do another harrass twice as big. Big immortal rushes, colossus, blink rushes and zeolot rushes can be effective when timed well. Many times I will do something like an immortal into expo timing that works very well and provides an entire range of possible late game techs. Just make it your goal to get past early game and hit that 2 base mid game and your protoss matches will get very interesting. 3gate or 4gate are just openers, the scouting and decisions you make after your at that point is what you should focus on.
If you find PVP boring and devolved, SPICE IT UP!
Immortal timing into expand?
What game are you playing?
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At the moment I've been going 1 gate fast Robo into 2 more gates and just massing a force to combat the 4 gate pushes. As of current, I make no Immortals. I make an Observer, then a Warp Prism and try to harass the mineral line with 4 Zealots + 3 Zealot warp ins (from the Warp Prism), often when they're trying to push my ramp. While this is a very mineral high investment (900 in total) - it can be effective if you absolutely ruin their economy, at most you draw the force back and you can move away with the Warp Prism as well as 4 Zealots.
I do however agree - the match up makes me cry in real life. It's had me strongly considering being a cutter.
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Honestly, stalkers rule this matchup and can fend off any sort of zealot pressure. Blink Stalkers and 4Gate Stalkers are the best two builds you can go in this matchup. 3gate robo is viable though, but is REALLY weak against a blink timing push, as you will only have 1 immortal and it will get surrounded by blink stalkers and fall too fast.
I play blink stalkers and 4gate stalkers only in PvP (diamond) and win most of my games. Another really awesome transition is going mass stalker and then researching charge and just going all chargelots vs the immortals your opponent will have.
Check out the WhiteRa PvP special. THAT is how you win PvP, and is centered around mass warp gates and good micro. The matchup isn't as bad as you drama queens are making it out to be.
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One of the main concerns I have with any adjustment to warpgate is that it would severely affect the way I play PvT, and may (or may not) make it imbalanced
I absolutely agree, however the more I think about it the more I like the way it affects all the matchups, not just pvp. Think about it a bit more before you knock it too hard. Historically, Blizzard has made changes this drastic if they felt it added a lot of depth to the game play.
In terms of the matchup as it exhists I think for the most part 2/4 warp gate proxy rushes can be nulified by some early preasure/blocking ramp. I really enjoy the pvp matchup because there are so many options/variations on the builds that can be effective. The only complaint I have about toss right now is the lack of action before warpgates come into play. Either thats just a phase thats going to change as builds evolve or I think we need to do something to increase the early gameplay options pre warpgate. I.E blink tech first etc...
I'm actually thinking about switching to Toss from zerg because the gameplay is a lot more fun. As zerg I have to concentrate so hard and every game is so stressful that its kinda hard to have fun. As Toss I feel like I can relax a bit and really enjoy myself without feeling like one tiny mistake is going to cost me the game. I can't make myself play terran...as a zerg player I just make myself do it. I have to have between 100 - 120 effective APM to keep up with 50 APM terran that knows any kind of decent build. Oh wait...there is no such thing as a bad terran build lol....everything works! (just a bit of humor, no need to flame)
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Does anyone have some replays of 2-gate zealot? I would like to see this. I play gold Z, so PvP is never my dance. Would it be feasible to place a proxy pylon next to his? Just make sure yours is secure and he would have to stay to protect his proxy, so instead of the fight being in your base, the fight can be a little off to the side, and if you win the fight, you can then begin taking down the pylon.
Just make sure you warp them in first and you win.
Did I get it right? You do two gates then core and research warp, then warp in zealots to a proxy pylon?
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On August 14 2010 05:53 Iggyhopper wrote:
Does anyone have some replays of 2-gate zealot? I would like to see this. I play gold Z, so PvP is never my dance. Would it be feasible to place a proxy pylon next to his? Just make sure yours is secure and he would have to stay to protect his proxy, so instead of the fight being in your base, the fight can be a little off to the side, and if you win the fight, you can then begin taking down the pylon.
Just make sure you warp them in first and you win.
Did I get it right? You do two gates then core and research warp, then warp in zealots to a proxy pylon?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say but when doing a 2 gate proxy zealot the zealots come out long before anyone has warp gates.
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On August 14 2010 05:53 Iggyhopper wrote:
Does anyone have some replays of 2-gate zealot? I would like to see this. I play gold Z, so PvP is never my dance. Would it be feasible to place a proxy pylon next to his? Just make sure yours is secure and he would have to stay to protect his proxy, so instead of the fight being in your base, the fight can be a little off to the side, and if you win the fight, you can then begin taking down the pylon.
Just make sure you warp them in first and you win.
Did I get it right? You do two gates then core and research warp, then warp in zealots to a proxy pylon?
No 2 gate proxy basically involves you planting a proxy pylon in/close to the opponents base at 10 and then 10 gate 11 gate. Pump zealots into his base and that's about it. If he has 1 gateway up, he loses. If the opponent sees you proxy and throws up a second gate, it is usually too late or they'll be behind big time economically.
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If you're going robo, what about holding with forcefields and then going 1 base colossus?
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On August 14 2010 06:00 holy_war wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 05:53 Iggyhopper wrote:
Does anyone have some replays of 2-gate zealot? I would like to see this. I play gold Z, so PvP is never my dance. Would it be feasible to place a proxy pylon next to his? Just make sure yours is secure and he would have to stay to protect his proxy, so instead of the fight being in your base, the fight can be a little off to the side, and if you win the fight, you can then begin taking down the pylon.
Just make sure you warp them in first and you win.
Did I get it right? You do two gates then core and research warp, then warp in zealots to a proxy pylon? No 2 gate proxy basically involves you planting a proxy pylon in/close to the opponents base at 10 and then 10 gate 11 gate. Pump zealots into his base and that's about it. If he has 1 gateway up, he loses. If the opponent sees you proxy and throws up a second gate, it is usually too late or they'll be behind big time economically.
Ah, so yeah I got it wrong. :\ Thought it meant two gate in your base and proxy pylon.
Oh well, I got it now.
So if you scout it, bring probes out and attack the pylon?
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Second you see second gate drop a forge at main and a pylon at ur nat choke, chrono first zealot he can either get his first 2 zealots into ur base or he can try and kill the pylon which by this time has 2 cannons growing up next to it, either is pretty easy to deal with, further zealots get shot up with good placement. Then expo, tech to? ( i did dual stargate) and???hopefully win.
Just did this on SoW 600 diamond worked kinda well, but first and only time ive used it so far (play random). Any potential?
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Proxy 2-gates are especially deadly on long 1v1 maps like Blistering Sands and Desert Oasis. By the time you scout it (even at 9 scout) it's too late.
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On August 14 2010 03:27 Reason.SC2 wrote:
I am a low diamond player myself (500 rating, 62% winrate), and have been absolutely crushed by a variation of this build using stalkers.
Maybe I'm off here but wouldn't 3-5 zealots into pure stalkers pretty much nullify the mass zealot since the stalkers can endlessly kite the zeals?
Another PvP dynamic I've noticed is the colossus tech war in which for all my games the person to expand first loses due to a timing window opening for the other player and the inability for sentries or cannons to ward off colossi with thernal lance.
Yes and No. Stalkers indefinitely kiting zealots is nice on paper, but in real life you are going to run into some issues.
First you have to consider 3-5 zealots into pure stalkers means you're going to get hit either at 3-5 zeals 2 stalkers with 12 zealots, or 3-5 zeals 6 stalkers with 20 zealots. Yes, on an infinite plain with no corners, walls, borders, or ramps, you could kite the zealots forever.
However, considering how outnumbered you will be, it is going to take your stalkers a comparatively long time to kill the zealots versus the zeals on you stalkers. Consider that you kill 4 of the zealots while your zeals are still alive. You now have 6 to 8 stalkers against 16-18 zealots (depending on whether more have arrived). Also, your opponent is making more zeals faster than you are making stalkers at about a ten to four ratio. (4gate 33 seconds vs. 2gate 42 seconds) At this point, assume that your opponent sends half of his zealots to chase your stalkers and the other half either to your pylons or probes. At this point, your stalkers have to kite the other zealots farther away from the probes under attack, or try to make a wide circle around your base to get to those other zealots while they are still being chased by the first zealots. The other force of zealots, has either killed you harvesters, or if you moved them, they have killed your nexus. If they went for your pylons, your gateways are powered down. Either way, you have killed half of their zealots and they have irreversibly crippled your base and are making more zeals and/or converting to CyCore. GG.
The point is, if you aren't going to go for an aggro heavy build in PvP i.e. zealots. Then you need to wall your base off and be ready to get hit hard, or you will lose. Terrans do it every day, and so can we.
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I think this is why I like playing in a lower league. Much less cookie-cutter builds and more variety in play, albeit sloppier.
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On August 14 2010 05:32 Slunk wrote:
First of all: 2gate proxy or even normal 2gate mass zealot is not a problem.
The real problem is, that 2gate is the only thing that consistently beats those 4gate warp-in builds, so once those are fixed, the game should drift away from mass zealot builds like it did in BW
I wanted to highlight this.
Again, 2 gate proxy itself isn't the problem or the reason I wrote this.
The real reason I believe is that four warpgate zealots beats most builds that protoss players do, and one of the only builds that beats this four warpgate build is a proxy 2 gate build.
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On August 14 2010 05 14 2010 05 SoL[9] wrote:
I almost agreed with all comments, but i would like to see a good protoss player post here (Nony).
My idea is for you use warpgate you should upgrade the pylon to. What i mean is you do normal upgrade for warpgate but them when with finish it you should upgrade the plyon that you want for warp in the units. That upgrade should cost 50/50 something like that. That would change PvP and other mu´s to. But i think with this the game could be a litle more complex.
Quote myself because i really want to know what you guys think about this. This would change 100% the all in in PvP
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What about a proxy forge and cannon at your opponents base?
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On August 14 2010 06:15 Iggyhopper wrote:
What about a proxy forge at your opponents base? Kills his nexus and protects you. Of course it would be a base race so stalemates could happen. I don't know if you can save up 400 minerals before the zealot starts killing your probes, so this idea relies solely on that. What about just a proxy expo? Lol off the wall ideas here.
Proxy forge would get scouted (he's keeping a probe in your base, after all).
Proxy expo would be killed by zealots and really wouldn't work.
Edit: also proxying a forge and cannon isn't really solving the problem for this - its going to end up being a very close game if not a stalemate, which I don't find being a legitimate "response" to this build - particularly if its GOING to lose to being scouted.
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I wouldn't try to go heavy stalker vs. incoming zealots unless he's only got a couple. Zealots rape stalkers pretty hard, and it's sort of the marauder situation: back your zealots up with stalkers and it's 10x harder for the enemy to kite you.
If the enemy is pushing you with a lot of zealots, use zealots of your own to combat them, or just FF your ramp to hold them off while you tech. If you made a robo, fast colossus might be the answer. Immortals won't help, zealots are the perfect toss response to immos. You could also tech to DTs immediately and possibly win outright.
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Just played a pvp, so freaking bogus. Even with scouting.
Zealots beat immortals, but if they rushed cheese rays your dead.
Stalkers beat cheese rays, but immortals say your dead.
Rinse, repeat, bullshit. It's like I can't build a unit composition unless it's balanced, but then stalker spam just micros around half my army. Also the immortal range is crap.
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EPT
