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deo.deo
135 Posts
It feels as soon as you dont go for any kind of fast zealots you are pretty much doomed. thanks for posting this, I hope someone from blizzard will read this. I strongly would suggest to delay the availability of warpgates somehow ... :/ PvP is just such a pain | ||
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On August 14 2010 04:12 Retgery wrote: PvP is probalby the easiest match up for me, i don't even have to scout, he's either doing a 1 base void ray's or 4 gate push, so i just 3 gate robo and i win everytime wat? sorry but what level are you playing at? cause ive never seen anyone do voidray stuff in pvp and a good 4gate > 3gate robo | ||
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RodrigoX
United States645 Posts
Now I am going to explain PvP and tell you why its so stupid and try to go as in depth as I can. Now the colossus dictates every single major ground engagement. At the point of 3 or 4 colossi every battle is dictated by that unit. If you have 2 more colossi than your opponent, and you have decent(ish) support, you will win the engagement hands down no problem. If you fall behind on colossi numbers you lose, if you get ahead you win. Every colossi is absolutely critical to your success. I am okay with this. It somewhat makes it stale, but I dont see how much different it is than TvT BW. I get tanks, and more tanks, and still more tanks. Its still not as good as TvT BW, with all the dropship positioning the mass scanning and the very subtle positioning of the tanks and the lategame possibility of BC transitioning. But I think PvP Sc2 reflects BW TvT midgame. With that being said, the colossus dictating every ground battle, you have one thing in mind, and that is to get as many colossi as you can as fast as you can. Im going to call this the optimal rush. Now this is where stupid things start to happen in the match up. Any 4gate, will beat the optimal rush. You basically have to not get colossi as quick to survive any 4gate push. This starts to generate problems, because say I did an opening, that could survive 4gates, and then got colossi eventually. But against a player who optimally rushes , you are going to lose, or at least be severely behind because every colossi you get is just so critical. In the early game, you want colossi, because you get more colossi you win the game, but you cant really do it with 4gates around. So you end up with this rock paper scissorish type of thing, where you do something that survives a 4gate and you hope to god your opponent doesnt optimal rush. And then the voidray. The voidray is a unit that can rape optimal rushes. But scouted it will crash and burn into amillion pieces. Thats why I am not a fan of voidray rushes with the first voidray because a player can react easily and end up killing your voids and then raping your ground army with his delayed colossus. But unscouted Voidrays are damn near impossible to stop for the optimal rush. Which again makes you want to do something that will survive 4gates because generally that will survive voidrays as well. And then the same thing happens. Voidrays lategame are also really good, because sure you dont have enough colossi but your voidrays charge up and kill like 14 colossi and then you win. What I am saying is that if you scout voids you win, if you dont you generally lose as a colossus player. The solution in my opinion, should be scouting to all these problems. But then more problems start occurring again. You cant adequately scout a 4gate. A warpgate when the core finishes does not dictate a 4gate by any means whatsoever. Its actually a very common way to go robotics popularized by HuK. A stalker can get out and kill your probe before the gateways go down reasonably. You can survive a 4gate by pure assumptions on the timing of his gateway and how much chrono he has, but in general if he has above 18 probes its extremely hard if the P plays it right to tell 4gates. And even if he does do a 4gate korean style everything leading up to the optimal rush isnt very good against the optimal rush. You want to scout your opponent if hes going voidrays at any time of the game. A reasonable solution early is an observer. And thats fine you can get observers but then problems occur when people get smart and snipe enemy obs. And you really dont want to get more obs because you need that time on the robo for colossi, because if you get behind you die. And then 100 gas means half a colossi so you dont want to do that either. And then colossi and stalkers with their range makes it impossible to get a probe in there to scout. You can try to get a warprism to scout and harass but again, 200 minerals more time on the robo, more money warping things in you need for colossi so you just dont fall behind. And then optimal rush vs optimal rush just depends on who micros and orders it better in the early game which is pretty fun. Then it gets stupid again because he could get another robo before you, or get 3 robos and just pump nothing but colossi and then you lose, because you cant keep up with the numbers. 1 gameplay thing and 1 balance thing I think that could help PvP. The gameplay, would be to get hallucination, and then scout with that in the mid to lategame. I know its 100 gas and a sentry, but I think its far better than robo time and a frail observer that could get easily sniped and then you have to get another one. And then for balance, have a unit thats worth transitioning out of colossi for. Because currently voidrays just seem like glass cannon that you spot them you win. you dont you lose. Very gimmicky in that sense. One thing I have seen PvP, that made my eyes go big was a Voidray, Immortal Midgame. Voidrays own the colossi, immortals take out the stalkers. I am not exactly sure how well it would do against 4gates, because your just low on units because your getting such pricey shit, but I played 2games on the ladder against it and it seemed pretty solid against the optimal rush. Oh and phoenixes are a non factor in battles. They do like no damage vs Colossi, and you can only really harass with them, but then 3 stalkers shuts that down, and you have 3 colossi with some support and he cant compete with your ground army because he doesnt have enough money for colossi, and he cant really transition into voids because your already making stalkers and that will get owned. 4gate seems a bit more even with it. Although the Korean style 4gate would seem to annihilate a phoenix kind of opening | ||
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Powster
United States650 Posts
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RodrigoX
United States645 Posts
On August 14 2010 04:22 Powster wrote: I surrender every single PvP game I join now. I had thoughts of quitting starcraft 2 from how bad PvP is and some thoughts of switching to zerg but then I realized I could just surrender at the start and made the game a lot more fun for me lol.. Its stupid but not totally unplayable. You are completely blowing it out of proportion. | ||
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Keap
United States214 Posts
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Powster
United States650 Posts
On August 14 2010 04:25 RodrigoX wrote: Its stupid but not totally unplayable. You are completely blowing it out of proportion. I like games that have 3 bases in them at least.. I am more of a macro player which is why I thought of playing zerg. But not playing pvp lets me play macro games every single time... and its totally unplayable in my opinion.. The only way to play is open 2 gate on small rush distance maps and if he didnt 2 gate you win. If he did you go to cyber and hope to get a good amount of stalkers before him then you win.. if you do it at the same time then the next step is rush to colossus and whoever gets it first wins.. If you decide for some reason to play standard then theres so many ways to die.. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
PvP is shit. I hated it so much I quit Protoss and started learning Terran. It was mad frustrating at first because every aspect of my play was super 'bumpy' but I enjoy TvT so much more than I did PvP. In 90% of PvPs everything is decided in the first 5 minutes of the game. It is super super rare that a Protoss will not try to 2gate zealot / 4 gate rush / immortal rush / blink stalker rush you and since there's always 2 players in a game the chances of something cheesy not occuring are very low. TvT actually has some variety where I can get creative and the match is as of right now steering away from Tank / Viking and is still doable with most strats whereas PvP if you decide to play passively you're pretty much dead. God I despised that so much, what made it even worse was that in beta 38% of players were Toss so the chances of a mirror MU were the highest .... TL;DR: Switch to Terran, life is good on the other side | ||
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UnderWorld_Dream
Canada219 Posts
Altho I know this build for a long time now, I never wanted to do it myself because it feels cheesy and I wanna play standard. But i've been forced to use it lately, or I'm getting killed by it. i often get my proxy pylon scouted and most of the time killed, but it really doesnt matter. Just throw a few pylons around his base, if you manage to get a single zealot at the top of the ramp, you can start warp-in in the base directly anyways and with 4 gates, no probes on gas, you got a ton of zealots in no time in his base. The only way to counter this is to do the same exact build, and you are not even sure to hold if he manage to snipe a few probes of yours. It sucks because putting cyber core before 17 supply aint very standard to me, and it pisses me off not being able just to play standard. if your ennemy puts down a Robo, he is just dead. No way he will hold your push with all this money and gas not invested in tier 1 units, even if he sees it coming. | ||
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RodrigoX
United States645 Posts
On August 14 2010 04:28 Powster wrote: I like games that have 3 bases in them at least.. I am more of a macro player which is why I thought of playing zerg. But not playing pvp lets me play macro games every single time... and its totally unplayable in my opinion.. The only way to play is open 2 gate on small rush distance maps and if he didnt 2 gate you win. If he did you go to cyber and hope to get a good amount of stalkers before him then you win.. if you do it at the same time then the next step is rush to colossus and whoever gets it first wins.. If you decide for some reason to play standard then theres so many ways to die.. Well your opinion on whether its unplayable is really void since you actually dont play it anymore. You can say you dont like it but other than that it really doesnt matter. I mean there are obvious problems. Probably the biggest problem is not surviving the korean style 4gate, is doing something survives a korean style 4gate. Because a 3gate robo, will just lose out to a well timed optimal colossus rush. There is probably one timing you can abuse but generally you wont kill him, and then once he has 3 or 4 colossi and you have 1 or 2 you are just so behind because his zealots and colossi will rip through your army and you just dont have an answer because there just arent enough colossi. In some situations you can outmicro him, but thats only if he fails to micro at all. Like a good player who optimally rushes should never lose out against a player who doesnt when he reaches 3 colossi. | ||
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Keap
United States214 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
my primary problem with it is that mass zealots are way OP to start the game, stalkers aren't good enough vs zealots early game - im not even sure why this is lol | ||
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g.o-
Canada33 Posts
On August 14 2010 04:09 deo.deo wrote: I ONLY logged in to tell you that you are 100% right! It feels as soon as you dont go for any kind of fast zealots you are pretty much doomed. thanks for posting this, I hope someone from blizzard will read this. I strongly would suggest to delay the availability of warpgates somehow ... :/ PvP is just such a pain Delaying the warpgate tech does absolutely nothing, and only encourages 2gate proxy strategy even more particularly on 2 player maps. Like alot of people mentioned in this thread, PvP seem to be the new ZvZ of brood war. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On August 14 2010 04:41 travis wrote: im gettin pretty high diamond, and i think it's mostly fine. there are tons of things that can be done if the game actually goes far enough to involve tech. my primary problem with it is that mass zealots are way OP to start the game, stalkers aren't good enough vs zealots early game - im not even sure why this is lol Well, this is the problem I have with the matchup. What incentive do you have to NOT open with either a 2 gate zealot rush or a 4 warpgate zealot build if it can kill the player that tries to take the game into the midgame? | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On August 14 2010 04:43 Comeh wrote: Well, this is the problem I have with the matchup. What incentive do you have to NOT open with either a 2 gate zealot rush or a 4 warpgate zealot build if it can kill the player that tries to take the game into the midgame? because a very skilled pvp player can still start teching, and switch to fight the 2gate using defenders advantage, and come out slightly ahead in tech/economy/whatever it's just about properly adapting so that you can just slightly fight it off | ||
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virgozero
Canada412 Posts
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zyzski
United States698 Posts
works like 95% of the time also, phoenix + immortals are a great way to counter colossi. very underrated response, especially with upgrades. | ||
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holy_war
United States3590 Posts
On August 14 2010 04:47 virgozero wrote: im very stubborn in pvp I keep trying to expo even though my heart tells me that I will get face raped for it.. which i inevitably do... Yeah you DO NOT want to expand in PvP in its current state. It's just giving your opponent a free win. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On August 14 2010 04:41 travis wrote: im gettin pretty high diamond, and i think it's mostly fine. there are tons of things that can be done if the game actually goes far enough to involve tech. my primary problem with it is that mass zealots are way OP to start the game, stalkers aren't good enough vs zealots early game - im not even sure why this is lol dont agree at all. 1. the game very rarely goes far enough to involve tech 2. IF the game goes far enough collosus > all. and its not even close. the on with more colloxen wins. isnt surprising considering the collosus is like the tank in TvT just way more mobile. | ||
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