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![[image loading]](http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9289/lolcomeh.jpg)
Oh hey, 1k posts
Over the past month, as a protoss player, I have noticed a disturbing growing trend in PvP that has begun to worry me. Ever since the HuK vs Tester games from the King of the Beta games, there has been increasing indications that PvP is starting to devolve into a "rock - paper - scissors" match-up that immediately come into effect, generally killing with little chance other builds. From my observations, the build that really worries me the most is the aggressive asian - style "4 warpgate proxy 4 pylon zealot warp-in" build. To put it simply, i've gone around 14/15 using this build on ladder play (500-600 diamond), and the only time I have lost this build was to an aggressive 2 gate no cyber zealot (which i didn't scout for whatever reason).
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/9/9e/Warp-Gate.png)
The worrying aspect of PvP
So, for me, lately, the aspects of PvP that worries me is the first 5-7 minutes of the game, which often is the end of game for games I've played lately. From the games I've played, it has devolved into
2 gate proxy > 4 warpgate zealot > any sort of tech build that isn't either of these two builds >~~(if played very well) 2 gate proxy
Perhaps the most worry of this sort of trend is that a lot of the important steps for these builds occur within the first 2 minutes of the game, making it nearly impossible to do reactionary scouting and not be behind.
For example, a four warpgate zealot push generally involves building a gateway on 10 and a cybercore on 13, and by that point it already becomes difficult to do any sort of build that responds to this effectively. That is to say - there is little opportunity to respond to scouting in this matchup - in similar vein to how some people observe zvz in SCBW (before Jaedong at least). So once one player has begun to tech to the 4 warpgate zealot, the other player has already decided to go 2 warpgate immortal into 3 warpgate, the game has already been decided - the zealot rusher will win. The same could be said in other the other possible builds (though, 2 gate vs teching build is a little more ambiguous and it is a situation I haven't encountered much, so I don't profess to know that much about it.)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/e/e2/Tester.jpg/200px-Tester.jpg)
The innovator - does he know more than we do?
Of course, the most important thing to consider that I think needs help developing is some sort of response that a fast teching player has against a 4 warpgate zealot player. Is there a response that can be foreseen by a player in this position that will allow them to hold this off? One of the major issues is that the four warpgate player often will start building pylons in the tech-er's base right around the time the stalker can pop-in - giving him no chance to kill the probe - and even then often a pylon will be put below this ramp for good measure. Pulling probes will often just put the tech-er considerably behind whilst the 4 warpgate-er will be able to constantly warp in more and more units. Keeping the probes mining will lead the 4 warpgater to targeting probes until he is vastly ahead. Earlier gateways by the tech-er will often just lead to a 4 warpgate zealot vs 4 warpgate zealot build. And, again, all it takes is ONE pylon to be built for the warpgate zealot push to work. I have yet to reach a plausible response to this rush. Have you?
A brief conclusion: Of course, my goal is simply to discuss the current status of PvP and current trends that I have noticed. Perhaps I am less knowledgeable than others, yet these are the results I have found. The rise of the 4 warpgate zealot rush is a build that I have had trouble finding a response for and leads me to the idea that PvP is a match-up that needs work. Should a game go beyond the length of 8 minutes, PvP is very entertaining and dynamic, yet I have found little reason to play such a game when winning in the first 8 minutes is so accessible with this build. Yes, it is all-in, but when it destroys so many builds, isn't making it standard fairly logical? Am I missing something about this match-up? Is there a hidden trick or response I have yet to come across?
Disclaimer: This is just an opinion piece by me from games that I have played in the last few weeks in attempt to get some serious discussion on PvP. I don't proclaim to be all knowing or a genius, just a worried nerd.
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well its kinda holdable by a similar 4gate build.
but overall i agree with your point. pvp is my least favourite matchup. it wasnt good before the tester build (you expo? ty for the win) but is pretty much a joke now.
sadly i have a talent for randoming mirrors and esp pvp. so i just do it myself evrytime so i can play the more fun matchups faster <.<
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I am a low diamond player myself (500 rating, 62% winrate), and have been absolutely crushed by a variation of this build using stalkers.
Maybe I'm off here but wouldn't 3-5 zealots into pure stalkers pretty much nullify the mass zealot since the stalkers can endlessly kite the zeals?
Another PvP dynamic I've noticed is the colossus tech war in which for all my games the person to expand first loses due to a timing window opening for the other player and the inability for sentries or cannons to ward off colossi with thernal lance.
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This gos back long before tester and huk played. pvp has been a problem day 1.
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PvP is the worst matchup ever, and it has made me want to switch to another race but learning a completely new one is time consuming and pretty frustrating.
As has already been said, its either a 2gate zealot rush or a 4gate push. Anyone trying to tech is just going to be behind, unless you get lucky with holding back a 2gate without losing a single probe.
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On August 14 2010 03:27 Reason.SC2 wrote:
I am a low diamond player myself (500 rating, 62% winrate), and have been absolutely crushed by a variation of this build using stalkers.
Maybe I'm off here but wouldn't 3-5 zealots into pure stalkers pretty much nullify the mass zealot since the stalkers can endlessly kite the zeals?
Another PvP dynamic I've noticed is the colossus tech war in which for all my games the person to expand first loses due to a timing window opening for the other player and the inability for sentries or cannons to ward off colossi with thernal lance.
Well, one of the key aspects of this build, from what i can tell is a: this build usually comes faster than any stalker build does (especially due to pulling guys off gas)
and b: at least a few of the zealots going directly for the probes, so eventually his economy overtakes yours and you lose in another minute or two.
Also, another problem is that if you are getting 3-5 zealots, you are cutting down on the overall number of your gateways, meaning he should be able to overtake you eventually with his zealot producing ability.
On August 14 2010 03:31 CagedMind wrote:
This gos back long before tester and huk played. pvp has been a problem day 1.
This is true - though for awhile after the warpgate push I thought PvP would settle down into a nice macrofest...but lately asian style play has indicated to me that it has reverted to early-beta style.
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I hate PvP so much right now, its like next to impossible for anything I try to work.
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On August 14 2010 03:31 CagedMind wrote:
This gos back long before tester and huk played. pvp has been a problem day 1.
agreed. It has pretty much always been: whoever gets good proxy pylon placement adn warp gate done first wins. That said, if you can get to later game, the game becomes reallly fun. Robo tech is amazing in PvP, if you can get it out, and phoenix harass is beautiful to watch.
That said. EVERY one of my PvP games as of late has devolved to either 2 gate proxy (I'm looking at you, steppes of war) or 4 gate pushes. In the latter case, if anyone goes for robo tech early, they lose. Hands down. Lose. No amount of immortal micro can save you against a constant stream of lot/stalker/sentry. While this is kindof ridiculous, if you wall in correctly and hold off the 4 gate push, the game can evolve...but then it usually comes down to the person that expands first, loses...
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On August 14 2010 03:37 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 03:31 CagedMind wrote:
This gos back long before tester and huk played. pvp has been a problem day 1. That said. EVERY one of my PvP games as of late has devolved to either 2 gate proxy (I'm looking at you, steppes of war) or 4 gate pushes. In the latter case, if anyone goes for robo tech early, they lose. Hands down. Lose. No amount of immortal micro can save you against a constant stream of lot/stalker/sentry. While this is kindof ridiculous, if you wall in correctly and hold off the 4 gate push, the game can evolve...but then it usually comes down to the person that expands first, loses...
agree with this.
pvp is broken on pretty much all stages of the game.
stage 1: 2gate proxy, open 2 gate too or lose
stage 2: 4gate, open 4gate too or lose
stage 3: dont expo or lose
stage 4: get mass collosus too or lose
(ofc all of that assumes proper play by the villain)
as frustrating as playing tvt against mass tank/viking turtlers mid-lategame or zvz against baneling antics can be, pvp is just as bad but with no way to escape out of it.
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I'm agreeing very much with this right about now.
I feel that to win pvp you must do annoying things such as 2 gate zealot rush, or proxy pylons. Sometimes its too ridiculous because of cliffs, i.e. pylons on the cliffs of your naturals, harder to scout. It really is a huge macro fest right now, but I'm not too sure what to do about it.
Reminds me of TvT where you need more starports.
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Agree with the OP. When executed correctly, it is the most frustrating thing in the world. It makes me want to switch my race because all I play on Ladders is PvP. It's either a 2 Gate Proxy or 4 Warpgates. So sad, soooooo sad.
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PvP is broken and totally sucks right now. The worst thing is that there is no way to kill the fucking probe that builds a ton of pylons in your base because zealots are so slow and stalkers take just a little too long to build. As much as I hate to say it, Blizzard probably needs to extend the research time on warpgate again.
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Yeah I cringe everytime I get matched PvP. It's basically a coin flip
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Yea 4 warpgate rushing sucks so hard. Although I am working a 2 gate robo into 3 gate robo build that has had mild success at the moment.
God I despise PvP despite it being my best matchup.
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As a Protoss player, I hate PvP matchups, partly because I have a mental block against letting it devolve into the 2gate or 4gate early game. It seems like a puzzle to me, that there HAS TO BE ANOTHER WAY.
Unfortunately, I'm not a great tactically creative mind, so I've been unable to figure the puzzle out. As a result, I'm seriously considering going Terran, or even Zerg... but I don't have the presence of mind to keep track of Queens, larvae, etc as Zerg.
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Are there are any mirror matches people actually like right now? I guess there's a division of opinion on TvT.
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On August 14 2010 03:59 UniversalSnip wrote:
Are there are any mirror matches people actually like right now? I guess there's a division of opinion on TvT.
From what I can tell, TvT is a matchup with some boring potential, PvP is rock-paper-scissors, and zvz is rock-rock-rock.
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On August 14 2010 04:01 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 03:59 UniversalSnip wrote:
Are there are any mirror matches people actually like right now? I guess there's a division of opinion on TvT. From what I can tell, TvT is a matchup with some boring potential, PvP is rock-paper-scissors, and zvz is rock-rock-rock.
More or less. ZvZ seems halfway fun, TvT makes me want to gouge my eyes out, and PvP is the lamest shit ever. I blame Tozar....
But yea I can't remember the last time I got 2 bases in PvP without already having won for the game (ie: waiting for GG). It's so bad that 13 gate has turned into total suicide.
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PvP is one of the biggest reasons why I hate laddering. I'd rather pound nails into my dick than play this stupid matchup. It's all build order wins. If you can pull of rock vs my scissors, you win. Skill has very little to do with the matchup as long as you can do the basic macro/micro needed.
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TvT is a good matchup. It's not even close to like SC1 TvT. It's by far the most dynamic and interesting mirror in SC2.
ZvZ is good if you can get out of mass ling/baneling stage of the game.
PvP sucks. Hard.
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