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On August 14 2010 04:50 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:41 travis wrote:
im gettin pretty high diamond, and i think it's mostly fine. there are tons of things that can be done if the game actually goes far enough to involve tech.
my primary problem with it is that mass zealots are way OP to start the game, stalkers aren't good enough vs zealots early game - im not even sure why this is lol dont agree at all. 1. the game very rarely goes far enough to involve tech 2. IF the game goes far enough collosus > all. and its not even close. the on with more colloxen wins. isnt surprising considering the collosus is like the tank in TvT just way more mobile.
ok collossi are pretty op but they aren't game ending it kinda depends on the map
i will agree on SOME maps late game collossi is the only way to go but not all maps
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I'll dig up a suggestion I saw from awhile back before warpgate research time got extended: requiring a twilight council to unlock warpgate research at the core. I'm not sure how I feel about it myself - but I think it's worth thinking about. It will delay warpgate tech and encourage the templar tech route, however the downside is having to go towards templar tech in order to get warpgates. If you go another route such as robo ... it can seriously delay the possibilty of warpgates.
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On August 14 2010 04:55 789 wrote:
I'll dig up a suggestion I saw from awhile back before warpgate research time got extended: requiring a twilight council to unlock warpgate research at the core. I'm not sure how I feel about it myself - but I think it's worth thinking about. It will delay warpgate tech and encourage the templar tech route, however the downside is having to go towards templar tech in order to get warpgates. If you go another route such as robo ... it can seriously delay the possibilty of warpgates.
Delaying warpgate doesn't fix the other problem in the current state of pvp: 2gate z's. As some1 else mentioned, why should I tech if I can win fast with 2 gate opening? The only way to stop a 2 gate is by mirroring the 2 gate itself, therefore leading to mass z wars. Althought it is a good attempt in fixing pvp, you bring up problems in other matchups by delaying the warpgate tech: pvt and pvz.
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On August 14 2010 04:25 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:22 Powster wrote:
I surrender every single PvP game I join now. I had thoughts of quitting starcraft 2 from how bad PvP is and some thoughts of switching to zerg but then I realized I could just surrender at the start and made the game a lot more fun for me lol.. Its stupid but not totally unplayable. You are completely blowing it out of proportion.
Not really. Ranks are meaningless and if you hate PvP, there isn't much to hold you back from just spamming games to get PvT or PvZ.
I find ZvZ worse than PvP, though.
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Switch blink upgrade with warp gates on the tech tree. Suggestion by a friend of mine. Sounds intriguing.
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I almost agreed with all comments, but i would like to see a good protoss player post here (Nony).
My idea is for you use warpgate you should upgrade the pylon to. What i mean is you do normal upgrade for warpgate but them when with finish it you should upgrade the plyon that you want for warp in the units. That upgrade should cost 50/50 something like that. That would change PvP and other mu´s to. But i think with this the game could be a litle more complex.
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On August 14 2010 05:08 Innovation wrote:
Switch blink upgrade with warp gates on the tech tree. Suggestion by a friend of mine. Sounds intriguing.
One of the main concerns I have with any adjustment to warpgate is that it would severely affect the way I play PvT, and may (or may not) make it imbalanced. I'm not sure i feel good about anything like that ...but I'm not sure if there are any balance-able options. Let's try to analyze this as it remains in the current game build, anything else is really just pointless suggestion making that won't affect the real way to tackle the problem at this point.
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On August 14 2010 04:50 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:41 travis wrote:
im gettin pretty high diamond, and i think it's mostly fine. there are tons of things that can be done if the game actually goes far enough to involve tech.
my primary problem with it is that mass zealots are way OP to start the game, stalkers aren't good enough vs zealots early game - im not even sure why this is lol dont agree at all. 1. the game very rarely goes far enough to involve tech 2. IF the game goes far enough collosus > all. and its not even close. the on with more colloxen wins. isnt surprising considering the collosus is like the tank in TvT just way more mobile.
Colossi*
Personally i go 3gate robo every gate gatre robo gate into fast colossus(chronoed out) to the point im spending all my chrono on the colossus, if they go 4gate you wall off with zealots(since you have to save gas anyway) and once your first colossus is out youre so far ahead in tech and economy you usually can win with 3-4 (with range) push
Mostly i just expo and com eout fine though
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On August 14 2010 05:14 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:50 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On August 14 2010 04:41 travis wrote:
im gettin pretty high diamond, and i think it's mostly fine. there are tons of things that can be done if the game actually goes far enough to involve tech.
my primary problem with it is that mass zealots are way OP to start the game, stalkers aren't good enough vs zealots early game - im not even sure why this is lol dont agree at all. 1. the game very rarely goes far enough to involve tech 2. IF the game goes far enough collosus > all. and its not even close. the on with more colloxen wins. isnt surprising considering the collosus is like the tank in TvT just way more mobile. Colossi* Personally i go 3gate robo every gate gatre robo gate into fast colossus(chronoed out) to the point im spending all my chrono on the colossus, if they go 4gate you wall off with zealots(since you have to save gas anyway) and once your first colossus is out youre so far ahead in tech and economy you usually can win with 3-4 (with range) push Mostly i just expo and com eout fine though
colloxen is the bejujular version of collosi ;P
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On August 14 2010 05:14 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:50 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On August 14 2010 04:41 travis wrote:
im gettin pretty high diamond, and i think it's mostly fine. there are tons of things that can be done if the game actually goes far enough to involve tech.
my primary problem with it is that mass zealots are way OP to start the game, stalkers aren't good enough vs zealots early game - im not even sure why this is lol dont agree at all. 1. the game very rarely goes far enough to involve tech 2. IF the game goes far enough collosus > all. and its not even close. the on with more colloxen wins. isnt surprising considering the collosus is like the tank in TvT just way more mobile. Colossi* Personally i go 3gate robo every gate gatre robo gate into fast colossus(chronoed out) to the point im spending all my chrono on the colossus, if they go 4gate you wall off with zealots(since you have to save gas anyway) and once your first colossus is out youre so far ahead in tech and economy you usually can win with 3-4 (with range) push Mostly i just expo and com eout fine though
The initial part of my brain tells me that a well execute 4 warpgate zealot push should actually kill your build - particularly if they have any decent pylon placement (they can just put a pylon near the ramp, and warp in a second group of zealots once they start pushing up your ramp with their intial 4 zealots. And because they are pulling guys off gas and they have a 13 cybercore, they should have enough zealots to kill you before colossi come into play. Maybe i'm wrong, but those are my initial thoughts.
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I only started doing the 4 gate warp ins after Tozar did it to me and I realized how oblivious protoss players are to it.
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I agree that PvP matches are usually a rush war, but would force-fielding your ramp with sentries until colossi/voidrays/DTs get out prevent this?
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PvP is pretty fun, actually. I also loved ZvZ in BW, so maybe I'm just batshit crazy.
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On August 14 2010 05:23 Setakoon wrote:
I agree that PvP matches are usually a rush war, but would force-fielding your ramp with sentries until colossi/voidrays/DTs get out prevent this?
sentry are really gas heavy, and you wouldnt be able to afford high tech making them in the amount youd need to constantly ff your ramp
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On August 14 2010 05:23 Setakoon wrote:
I agree that PvP matches are usually a rush war, but would force-fielding your ramp with sentries until colossi/voidrays/DTs get out prevent this?
You're not going to get it out fast enough vs a 4 gate all in or proxy 2 gate
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On August 14 2010 05:23 Setakoon wrote:
I agree that PvP matches are usually a rush war, but would force-fielding your ramp with sentries until colossi/voidrays/DTs get out prevent this?
first zealots are in your base before you have more than 1 sentry out :/
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I dont necessarily enjoy PvP but I dont think it is as terrible as a lot of you are making it out to be. I played a great PvP the other day that got up to 3 base vs 3 base with both players going similar builds. Obviously that isn't the usual occurrence but I'm just saying it can happen.
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First of all: 2gate proxy or even normal 2gate mass zealot is not a problem. If you think about it, it is exactly the same as in BW. The only difference is the movement speed of the stalker that even favoures tech builds more than those slow ass dragoons or atually it keeps the balance given that goons have moe hp.
The real problem is, that 2gate is the only thing that consistently beats those 4gate warp-in builds, so once those are fixed, the game should drift away from mass zealot builds like it did in BW (larger maps should help due to longer travel times).
Now I really don't want anyone to butcher protoss in the other matchups, the endless warpgate research time was enough and didn't even fix anything. So what I am thinking about is some kind of interaction between the energy fields of opposing protoss playes. I remember that someone suggested that if two pylons that belong to enemy players are close enough to each other, so their power fields touch, they should cancel each other out. They should still support buildings with energy (to prevent mega-manner pylons shutting down everything), but it should not be possible for either player to warp in stuff.
This should be obviously tested to find any holes, but I think this concept could fix problems without touching any other matchups.
However it might just take some time until somebody figures something out, so we can keep everything the way it is.
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I love pvp, it only devolves when people close their mind and don't experiment.
Prisms are nuts in pvp. You can choose to harrass at a moments notice and then beam up the stalkers you warped in fly off and add them to your army or do another harrass twice as big. Big immortal rushes, colossus, blink rushes and zeolot rushes can be effective when timed well. Many times I will do something like an immortal into expo timing that works very well and provides an entire range of possible late game techs. Just make it your goal to get past early game and hit that 2 base mid game and your protoss matches will get very interesting. 3gate or 4gate are just openers, the scouting and decisions you make after your at that point is what you should focus on.
If you find PVP boring and devolved, SPICE IT UP!
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On August 14 2010 05:32 Reborn8u wrote:
I love pvp, it only devolves when people close their mind and don't experiment.
Prisms are nuts in pvp. You can choose to harrass at a moments notice and then beam up the stalkers you warped in fly off and add them to your army or do another harrass twice as big. Big immortal rushes, colossus, blink rushes and zeolot rushes can be effective when timed well. Many times I will do something like an immortal into expo timing that works very well and provides an entire range of possible late game techs. Just make it your goal to get past early game and hit that 2 base mid game and your protoss matches will get very interesting. 3gate or 4gate are just openers, the scouting and decisions you make after your at that point is what you should focus on.
If you find PVP boring and devolved, SPICE IT UP!
yeah its all well and good to try and fix it by playing differently
but none of the shit you just mentioned works, at all
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EPT
