EPTThe current state of PvP? - Page 6
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Hann1bal
United States46 Posts
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taffy
United States28 Posts
On August 14 2010 06:58 SoL[9] wrote: Depends. If that effect Protoss in mid/late game that was simple to fix. Every time you did a "upgrade" plyon that cost less minerals/gas. With this Protoss would be alot more complex and more strategy wise. did you just respond to your bump of your own bad idea as if you were a different person engaging in a debate? what a horrible idea. do yourself a favor and switch to terran. i mean that in earnest. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
On August 14 2010 06:37 Buddhist wrote: He could have made a zealot as his core warped in, and with that zealot handled all of the pylons before the enemy warp gate tech finished... No, one zealot will not kill tons of pylons. Soon as one does get low just throw a cancel down and build another. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On August 14 2010 06:40 Comeh wrote: Erm, hate to say it, but zealots don't do 100 damage per hit. Plexa was pretty much correct - you make gas, you lose. :|. (there were 4 proxy pylons with another probe OTW) this isn't true gas only costs 75 that isn't going to cost you the game mass zealot/proxy zealot is great against bad players but as players get better and better they will get better at better at balancing economy with defense, and they will still defend whatever zealots u throw at them while teching at an appropriate speed (which will be faster than you tech) | ||
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juraigamer
42 Posts
On August 14 2010 06:25 holy_war wrote: Don't let them get to void rays and win in 5 minutes by using all in strats. Problem solved though it just encourages more PvP bullshit. That wasn't the case. I played a... 14 minute game? I try for a fast observer but need to cancel it as a 1 stalker 2 zealot rush comes. I hold it off with 2 zealots and an immortal, and work on zealots, stalkers, and a few immortals. I push our and mass stalker just wipes out everything, though he was pretty much totaled, for having 66% of what my force was. So then I follow suit with just a mess of zealots and immortals, and boom 2 void rays in my base, his army at my door. Same balanced composition I had. Plus 2 rays. I managed to get archons to kill the rays but by then the remnants of my army were steamrolled and he just pushed in. Fast stalker loses to fast immortal, but stalker spam stops all. I should just do that. Takes no skill really, but it's not fun to play. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On August 14 2010 07:06 travis wrote: this isn't true gas only costs 75 that isn't going to cost you the game Well, i was more implicating behind the investment towards gas units - ie a prolonged mining of gas (cost being 75 minerals of a refinery + lost mining time of 3 probes + opportunity cost of what those minerals could be used for [another gateway] which is amplified by the diminishing aspect of defenders advantage due to the mechanics of the warpgate [no travel time]) | ||
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Powster
United States650 Posts
On August 14 2010 06:24 bobcat wrote: So you can go back to your standard void cheese? Dear god man are you reading what you write? PvP is literally the only matchup a toss player goes into where it is a direct comparison of macro skill, micro skill, scouting, positioning, and strategy. If you can't survive long enough to reach the midgame, you need to re-evaluate how early you tech and what defensive strategy you are using or learn to play a more aggressive, micro intensive early game. lol.. I fast expand vs terran and zerg before them often.. so dunno what your talking about voidray cheese. I even say I am going voidrays sometimes if I am to the person so they dont die to it and waste my time.. I play the game for fun not to have to 2 gate / 4 warp gate every game.. dunno who you are playing if you think macro is a big deal in pvp. PvT is like 10 times more fun than PvP.. maybe you just voidray cheese every single game so you wouldnt know but try creating a build that allows you to expand before or as fast as the terran without dying to their timing pushes then you will see how fun it is. | ||
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On August 14 2010 07:09 Comeh wrote: Well, i was more implicating behind the investment towards gas units - ie a prolonged mining of gas (cost being 75 minerals of a refinery + lost mining time of 3 probes + opportunity cost of what those minerals could be used for [another gateway] which is amplified by the diminishing aspect of defenders advantage due to the mechanics of the warpgate [no travel time]) well it would be the player's fault for continuing to tech despite scouting multiple gateways or total lack of tech in the opponent's base warpgates definitely won't have come into play yet... if they have u scouted like a million years too late and you deserve to lose | ||
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Jin
Canada444 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On August 14 2010 07:14 travis wrote: well it would be the player's fault for continuing to tech despite scouting multiple gateways or total lack of tech in the opponent's base warpgates definitely won't come into play yet... if they have u scouted like a million years to late and you deserve to lose Well, again, that is what I was implying and that was what plexa was implying I suppose. | ||
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Rah
United States973 Posts
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Naib
Hungary4952 Posts
I've won a few times against this by building a fast forge and sim-citying myself with 2 cannons / expanding / teching to DT while trying to hold desperately against the inevitable stalker force...I'm not sure how that fares vs the cream of the crop though. | ||
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thekidxp
United States10 Posts
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taffy
United States28 Posts
These seem to be popular claims: 1) collosus wars is the "legit" way to play pvp 2) any build that interferes with your ability to make fast collosus is cheese and/or all-in 3) 4 gate is all-in, but 3 gate robo is not, even though it is more expensive to produce from 4) early game pressure is cheesey and makes the existence of tech pointless 5) pvp is a build order rock paper scissors mu even though both players are free to scout for ages Do you all really buy into this? I really wanted to participate in this thread, but if this is really how you feel, it's not even worth my time. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On August 14 2010 07:20 taffy wrote: I'm a new player so I'm sure this affects what feels old and boring to me, but I'm having a hard time coming up with justifications for what I see in this thread. These seem to be popular claims: 1) collosus wars is the "legit" way to play pvp 2) any build that interferes with your ability to make fast collosus is cheese and/or all-in 3) 4 gate is all-in, but 3 gate robo is not, even though it is more expensive to produce from 4) early game pressure is cheesey and makes the existence of tech pointless 5) pvp is a build order rock paper scissors mu even though both players are free to scout for ages Do you all really buy into this? I really wanted to participate in this thread, but if this is really how you feel, it's not even worth my time. I suppose I'll defend this thread. The current state of pvp that worries me is the standardization of these all in builds, such as the 4 warpgate zealot push, that have clearly no strong follow-through (due to cutting of probes, no gas). 3 gateway robo techs past the first tier of units, and in my opinion has a better probability into transferring into a "midgame" (which i will define as a player is able to expand without immediately dying) I'll sum up 1/2 simply - because these builds clearly are aggressive all-in builds because of their lack of having a solid follow through (from what i observe), it is more coincidental about not being able to reach colossus, and i focus more on not reaching a stage that ISNT zealots. 4) there is a difference between the definition of "pressure" and "all-in". Pressure often looks to do damage while putting yourself in an advantageous situation - ie 2 hatch muta in scbw. All-in is more of a 9/10 proxy gateway in scbw. I compare the 9/10 proxy gateway to the 4 gate zealot warpin. 5. This is debatable, but again the argument I have put forth is that there aren't solid responses that protoss players can do towards these builds. I could be wrong, and I want to be wrong, but i have yet to come across decent responses to scouting these builds. (also, technically you can keep guys in gas in the 4 gate zealot warp in...though it means you'll have one or two less pylons you are warping in their main) | ||
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
On August 14 2010 07:20 taffy wrote: I'm a new player so I'm sure this affects what feels old and boring to me, but I'm having a hard time coming up with justifications for what I see in this thread. These seem to be popular claims: 1) collosus wars is the "legit" way to play pvp 2) any build that interferes with your ability to make fast collosus is cheese and/or all-in 3) 4 gate is all-in, but 3 gate robo is not, even though it is more expensive to produce from 4) early game pressure is cheesey and makes the existence of tech pointless 5) pvp is a build order rock paper scissors mu even though both players are free to scout for ages Do you all really buy into this? I really wanted to participate in this thread, but if this is really how you feel, it's not even worth my time. 1) Collosus can be dealt with by immortals or blink stalkers and take a long time to tech/pump. 2) not everyone goes collo, I prefer blink stalkers 3) 4 gate cuts probes with the intention of ending it there. 3 gate robo isn't like that. 4) its not earlygame pressure, its all in Korean warp-gate or epic zealot battles. 5) it is RPS b/c often by the time you scout you can't react or your reaction is delayed so you get hurt (see korean warpgate, proxy 2gate). I am about to switch to Terran because I am so tired of PvP. I am 450+ ELO diamond P but I despise PvP in its current state. Protoss is really fun until mid diamond. I seem to get 50%+ mirrors, I'd rather play TvP... | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
hv test 2 gate vr vs 3 gates robo and vr quite dominate =) | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
i just pvp'd a guy he had 451 wins 405 losses WTF | ||
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
On August 14 2010 07:30 NB wrote: VR is definitely under used! hv test 2 gate vr vs 3 gates robo and vr quite dominate =) too bad stalkers are cheaper, just as fast, and when they get blink they laugh at void rays. I never loss to void rays b/c they are terrible in PvP. The only build it beats is DT rush if you walled with a cannon or if they went 4 gate zealots rofl. | ||
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