On July 23 2010 02:18 Duelist wrote: The difference is that those 4 hours a day you're not improving any skill. Your real life self is not improving in any way, whereas in SC2 you're getting better at multitasking and strategy
That's a pretty silly statement to make. PVP in wow (arenas in particular) clearly exercise these same sorts of skills, e.g., juggling crowd control under pressure while still putting out damage or healing or planning when to go for kills via cc chains, simply applying offensive pressure, or playing defensively to ride out your opponents cooldowns.
WOW pvp has it's own gameplay problems that hamper it from continuing to rise in prominence in esports, in particular the compromise the developers strike between pve and pvp balance. However you can't dismiss wow as "not improving any skill" without dismissing (virtually) every other competitive video game in the same manner.
And how can you pvp competitively without competitive guear? You can't. You might indeed gain skills by practicing pvp, but they won't do much good compared to someone that spent the same time farming.
The short answer is: play on the tournament realm where gear is standard issue and fixed to the current season.
The long answer is: spend the week or two farming the gear necessary to start playing at a "competitive" level. Getting a current set of off-set gear and previous season on-set gear is trivial to do for a new or out-of-date toon. Alternatively, just get in there and stomp on the people that farmed the gear but don't know how to pvp and acquire the gear over time. Sure you won't be able to get a shadowmourne or heroic dfo this way, but you can surely play at a competitive level with the gear readily available by just pvping.
I quit WoW almost a year ago and immediately switched to SC and TL. The nice thing is that the community here is much more grown up, the game is at least as fun as WoW and you can actually work and have a decent RL while doing all this. Which wasn't possible for me with WoW (being GM and Maintank).
On July 23 2010 03:02 faction123 wrote: i never had any problems casually playing wow, sounds like self control problems all up in this thread
its more like that in WoW if you want to be at the top level, you will have to play for hours and hours. that is boring and so much time consuming. that is why I quit it. not to mention that you need other people playing it at high level too...
And playing at a top level in SC2 is any different? You don't just magically have skill. You have to work at it.
Because with WoW its mostly about how many hours you can pour into mind numbingly boring gear and currency farming that enables you to play at high level. Instead of actually practising the gameplay. Imagine having to just play the AI over and over again for hours each day to improve your chances when playing against real people in SC2.
Its not practice OR improving your character. There's no black and white...you improve in skill as your character improves. Its just an upfront time investment in order to compete. But, if you enjoy the process of BGs, the occasional Wintergrasp brawl and stuff you need to do to get that gear, then what's the problem?
Its not like the day the new Season starts all the top players have a full set of gear already. Everyone starts the same race at the same time. If you're a good player, you'll already have the same set of awesome gear they've got and now you're both slowly improving your character as the Season progresses.
Its just a gameplay formula. Yeah, its different to SC2 where a new player can just jump right in and compete on an even playing field, but either way you still need to work your ass off to understand the metagame, different compositions, what to use, when, where, on what and so on.
Claiming that top-level WoW PvP is all about gear and numbers its just mind-bogglingly retarded. The same crowd of hardcore gamers play SC2 as they do WoW.
If there's one thing true about hardcore gamers is that they can find a way to turn anything in an intense competition.
The fact is : if you want to really succeed at high level arena, you need end game PvE gear (depends on the class but as a rogue, like me, yes). I hated PvE, the fact to kill the same stupid boss again and again, to be ninja looted by some arrogant bastard and so on, all I cared was to do arena. My gear was made only with PvP parts and I was kind of blocked by that (I still managed to reach 2500+) and I hated that part of WoW.
On July 23 2010 03:02 faction123 wrote: i never had any problems casually playing wow, sounds like self control problems all up in this thread
its more like that in WoW if you want to be at the top level, you will have to play for hours and hours. that is boring and so much time consuming. that is why I quit it. not to mention that you need other people playing it at high level too...
And playing at a top level in SC2 is any different? You don't just magically have skill. You have to work at it.
Because with WoW its mostly about how many hours you can pour into mind numbingly boring gear and currency farming that enables you to play at high level. Instead of actually practising the gameplay. Imagine having to just play the AI over and over again for hours each day to improve your chances when playing against real people in SC2.
Its not practice OR improving your character. There's no black and white...you improve in skill as your character improves. Its just an upfront time investment in order to compete. But, if you enjoy the process of BGs, the occasional Wintergrasp brawl and stuff you need to do to get that gear, then what's the problem?
Its not like the day the new Season starts all the top players have a full set of gear already. Everyone starts the same race at the same time. If you're a good player, you'll already have the same set of awesome gear they've got and now you're both slowly improving your character as the Season progresses.
Its just a gameplay formula. Yeah, its different to SC2 where a new player can just jump right in and compete on an even playing field, but either way you still need to work your ass off to understand the metagame, different compositions, what to use, when, where, on what and so on.
Claiming that top-level WoW PvP is all about gear and numbers its just mind-bogglingly retarded. The same crowd of hardcore gamers play SC2 as they do WoW.
If there's one thing true about hardcore gamers is that they can find a way to turn anything in an intense competition.
The fact is : if you want to really succeed at high level arena, you need end game PvE gear (depends on the class but as a rogue, like me, yes). I hated PvE, the fact to kill the same stupid boss again and again, to be ninja looted by some arrogant bastard and so on, all I cared was to do arena. My gear was made only with PvP parts and I was kind of blocked by that (I still managed to reach 2500+) and I hated that part of WoW.
Oh bullshit. The odd trinket or legendary weapon will improve your odds, but they don't make or break your ability to compete. You act like the top #500 spots are utterly consumed by the perfect team composition, with a bunch of Shadowmournes and crazy-ass trinkets from heroic ICC. That's hardly the case.
Its just a game of odds and chances. Yeah, if my Warlock was decked out in S8 gear right now, he'd have a better rating than his sorry ass sitting in S6/7, but that doesn't mean I can't enter an arena and hit the 2k rating needed to get all of the good stuff for full S8 and THEN push up to the top levels. The only thing holding me back is my desire to do it.
On July 23 2010 03:02 faction123 wrote: i never had any problems casually playing wow, sounds like self control problems all up in this thread
its more like that in WoW if you want to be at the top level, you will have to play for hours and hours. that is boring and so much time consuming. that is why I quit it. not to mention that you need other people playing it at high level too...
And playing at a top level in SC2 is any different? You don't just magically have skill. You have to work at it.
Because with WoW its mostly about how many hours you can pour into mind numbingly boring gear and currency farming that enables you to play at high level. Instead of actually practising the gameplay. Imagine having to just play the AI over and over again for hours each day to improve your chances when playing against real people in SC2.
Its not practice OR improving your character. There's no black and white...you improve in skill as your character improves. Its just an upfront time investment in order to compete. But, if you enjoy the process of BGs, the occasional Wintergrasp brawl and stuff you need to do to get that gear, then what's the problem?
Its not like the day the new Season starts all the top players have a full set of gear already. Everyone starts the same race at the same time. If you're a good player, you'll already have the same set of awesome gear they've got and now you're both slowly improving your character as the Season progresses.
Its just a gameplay formula. Yeah, its different to SC2 where a new player can just jump right in and compete on an even playing field, but either way you still need to work your ass off to understand the metagame, different compositions, what to use, when, where, on what and so on.
Claiming that top-level WoW PvP is all about gear and numbers its just mind-bogglingly retarded. The same crowd of hardcore gamers play SC2 as they do WoW.
If there's one thing true about hardcore gamers is that they can find a way to turn anything in an intense competition.
The fact is : if you want to really succeed at high level arena, you need end game PvE gear (depends on the class but as a rogue, like me, yes). I hated PvE, the fact to kill the same stupid boss again and again, to be ninja looted by some arrogant bastard and so on, all I cared was to do arena. My gear was made only with PvP parts and I was kind of blocked by that (I still managed to reach 2500+) and I hated that part of WoW.
Oh bullshit. The odd trinket or legendary weapon will improve your odds, but they don't make or break your ability to compete. You act like the top #500 spots are utterly consumed by the perfect team composition, with a bunch of Shadowmournes and crazy-ass trinkets from heroic ICC. That's hardly the case.
I'm playing Rogue and I know what I'm talking about. Nearly all the top rogues play with a lot of PvE gear, because it is so much more optimised. And I'm not talking about only trinkets or weapons but mostly of necklace, rings, boots etc...
you don't need that much gear to be good at WoW. I mean for PvP, ofc. I have seen a lot of people getting high rated with not so good gear.
the problem is that there is more than a year people is level 80, so, nowadays eveyone have really really high level gear, both PvP and PvE, making it harder for someone that just got to 80.
to the people saying that WoW requires no skill, why don't you just get into the arena tournaments and get rich? hahaha
Everyone who says you need no skill for wow has never played a challenging pve encounter in heroic mode....the prob is....you need not only 1 skilled player to kill a difficult hero boss....you need 25... ;P And those people need to have practice playing together in a team. You can't even compare an mmo and an rts game.
If you don't like playing an mmo then don't play it and stop whining and flaming here.
The harder an encounter is for you the more excitement it brings when you actually manage it. Because of this you actually enjoy success more with bad gear than you do with top of the notch gear. Obviously this works only reasonably well for PvE, but PvP is a shitload of junk anyway and arena ruined the whole game. PvP is only good if it is world-PvP like we had in Southshore vs. Tarren Mill.
On July 23 2010 04:20 faction123 wrote: arguing about the gearing is pretty redundant when wow doesn't even come close to any other game in skill required
On July 23 2010 03:02 faction123 wrote: i never had any problems casually playing wow, sounds like self control problems all up in this thread
its more like that in WoW if you want to be at the top level, you will have to play for hours and hours. that is boring and so much time consuming. that is why I quit it. not to mention that you need other people playing it at high level too...
Yeah and what makes you think you'll be in diamond in a year if you play a few hours a week?
On July 23 2010 03:02 faction123 wrote: i never had any problems casually playing wow, sounds like self control problems all up in this thread
its more like that in WoW if you want to be at the top level, you will have to play for hours and hours. that is boring and so much time consuming. that is why I quit it. not to mention that you need other people playing it at high level too...
Yeah and what makes you think you'll be in diamond in a year if you play a few hours a week?
if not in the asian server, you really don't need a year to get into diamond. and I answered similar post one page backwards explaining my point of view...
I have only US server experience and in the US server its really easy to get to diamond...
On July 23 2010 03:56 Bibdy wrote: If there's one thing true about hardcore gamers its that they can find a way to turn anything into an intense competition.
Yeah - I can agree with this. A lot of people in this thread seem just to bash "other" games, which require different skill sets. WoW PVP requires a level of coordination (with the teampartners) which is far superior compared to SC. A (teambased) FPS player may need a similiar level of coordination, a good strategy and also needs good aiming. A 1vs1 FPS player needs the same aiming as well as a good deal of mindgames. SC players need a good strategy and have high APM to do the things they want to do. A chess player doesnt need those high APM - but chess is not easier than SC on a wider scale.
Every game needs a "unique" (of course some games are extremely similiar) skillset. There is no "harder" or "easier" - just different.
Edit: You didnt need to spend 4hours / day to be a world best PVE player in WoW. Wonder where this stupid idea originates from... 10hours / week are more than enough to play world top 50.
Every game needs a "unique" (of course some games are extremely similiar) skillset. There is no "harder" or "easier" - just different.
I really don't think you can argue that SC2 isn't "harder" than a game like WoW. WoW, at it's peak of competitiveness, requires reflexes and timing that far more people have compared to the skillset needed to be a top SC2 player.
Saying they are just different really doesn't cut it.
Edit: Oh, and yeah more on topic, I too quit WoW, over a year ago. Once Death Knights came into PvP it was just the final straw for me. Don't get me wrong, i liked spamming ONE spell all the way to gladiator, but somehow that got old...
I still miss vanilla WoW, that was definitely the most fun I've ever had in a video game.
Every game needs a "unique" (of course some games are extremely similiar) skillset. There is no "harder" or "easier" - just different.
I really don't think you can argue that SC2 isn't "harder" than a game like WoW. WoW, at it's peak of competitiveness, requires reflexes and timing that far more people have compared to the skillset needed to be a top SC2 player.
As I mentioned, the coordination with teammembers is the harder part in WoW. It takes "timing" to a whole other level
Every game needs a "unique" (of course some games are extremely similiar) skillset. There is no "harder" or "easier" - just different.
I really don't think you can argue that SC2 isn't "harder" than a game like WoW. WoW, at it's peak of competitiveness, requires reflexes and timing that far more people have compared to the skillset needed to be a top SC2 player.
Saying they are just different really doesn't cut it.
Surely it does. For reasonable pairs of games, how do you fairly compare the skills required of one game with another, especially when they are in different genres? An individual may find one game easier than another, but that is more of a function of their own aptitude rather than the innate difficulty of the required skill. For example, how can you judge one sport to be "harder" than the other, e.g., baseball and football?
Also, your example of DK icy touch spamming is comparable to 1-food roaches. Both are powerful, one trick ponies, that many people banked on to great success. Both are also techniques that have since been nerfed by blizzard because they were deemed overpowered.
EPT
