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On July 21 2010 02:55 Capnstank wrote:
I think Zerg/Anything(except zerg) deserves honorable mention since given a long enough game you can have up to 600/600 supply between two people (Neural Parasite the other player's worker)
How exactly are you going to create a building with a 12 second limit on neural parasite? You're re-NP'ing them 5-6 times to build a single barracks?
ZZ is a gnarly opponent because you have to scout them hard early. Need to figure out if they're doing 6,8,10 pool all in, both teching to muta, or massing hydra/roach/ling.
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My friend is a Zerg player as am I, so we play ZZ all the time, and i have no idea why people think it's the worst team. We do incredibly well. We don't 6pool or shit like that, either. One of us goes muta/ling to keep map control while the other macros hardcore and builds a ground army and fast techs to tier3. we also grant each other control so we each have control of a 400/400 army of basically every zerg unit under the sun. We win a lot, even against those stupid TP teams that do TLO's cute little strategy of feeding minerals to the protoss player.
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I play TZ and while I'm not comfortable saying its the strongest it does have some sweet stuff going on.
Tank/marine/medivac + muta/roach is pretty absurd, its a little unfair to have mutas spotting cliffs for your tanks. Also late game mech + blord/corrupter is just not something which can really be delt with by any unit combination.
Also medivacs heal every zerg unit. This is almost just straight up unfair (shared control muta harass with medivacs is just mean).
imho any doubled race is going to be weaker than a race combination. Very simply, you know how to play against any given race individually and you have easier choices to make in terms on unit composition as they have less options. Yes it does provide some opportunity for silly stuff like double 4gate or double 6pool or 400/400 tanks but its usually just simpler to deal with.
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On July 21 2010 02:55 Capnstank wrote:
I think Zerg/Anything(except zerg) deserves honorable mention since given a long enough game you can have up to 600/600 supply between two people (Neural Parasite the other player's worker)
Show me 1 game where this is done and I will consider it valid lol
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PP vs TP or TZ is imba match up in my eyes, no way to hold proxi reapper and proxi gates or fast ling with a Toss ally.
so i have to say PP is the worst as long as it is against TZ /TP , all other MU's are great.
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The reaper + ling combination of TZ is the hardest thing to face for every other team combo.
I'm very curious what the best strat is for our PT game against this TZ combo. 1/1/1 with hellions/marine into banshee if u survive that long would probably work the best. Bunkers are probably nice aswell, problem being u have to have nice placement and u cant wall off coz of the reapers.
It's very difficult on maps where u cant help ur ally that easy coz of the distances and money wasted on bunkers is a huge blunter if they attack ur ally and you lack another barracks or w/e.
The toss player in PT vs ZT probably should go for some weird chronoboost-save for fast stalker thing - tho it would be nice on certain maps to have fast blink - that d be awesome - but most times toss dies far too quickly. 2v2 in that aspect is not balanced as far as i m concerned.
Maybe an ally trade might be the best choice on some maps with clever bunker placement + a 1-2 hellions with repair scvs
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If you can make it to mid-late game, ZP is unbeatable. Me and a buddy did this, we planned to play defensive till we could get templar and infestors. Fungal Growth, then storm. They can't move away and its huge damage.
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PP is just too strong, people are being dumb saying is the worst. 1 gate robo into 4 warpgates mixing stalker, immortal, colossi, sentries with another P going for void rays/ carriers is just too godly.
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On July 29 2010 22:56 Gleen wrote:
PP is just too strong, people are being dumb saying is the worst. 1 gate robo into 4 warpgates mixing stalker, immortal, colossi, sentries with another P going for void rays/ carriers is just too godly.
yes, on your level of skill it wont matter. Imagine the time it takes to get to a unit mix of immortal + colossi + gateway units and void + carrier for the other toss.
no offence ... but on higher levels there is just no way to survive early/early mid-game as dual toss excluding proxying (maybe).
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PZ does have some devastating combos my partner and I have thought of and experimented with.
- Fungal Growth + Psi Storm lockdown
- Fungal Growth + Colossus
- Void Ray + Speedling rush
- Baneling Bust + Both enter and FF off choke
- Stalker + Roach early push
- DT harass one opponent, then Nydus Worming the other
just to name a few..
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On July 29 2010 22:02 peppermintschnaps wrote:
The reaper + ling combination of TZ is the hardest thing to face for every other team combo.
I'm very curious what the best strat is for our PT game against this TZ combo. 1/1/1 with hellions/marine into banshee if u survive that long would probably work the best. Bunkers are probably nice aswell, problem being u have to have nice placement and u cant wall off coz of the reapers.
It's very difficult on maps where u cant help ur ally that easy coz of the distances and money wasted on bunkers is a huge blunter if they attack ur ally and you lack another barracks or w/e.
I can't see how you can lose to that build with PT. Maybe you need better vision of your surroundings and next time send out a scout?
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ZP is so fun! lots for power lings for speed then banelings then infestors while toss gets robo stalker. It is so dominate. You need early pressure tho to make it all work, and a good teammate 
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As for worst I have to say TZ simply because as a terran player if we get zealot ling rushed I feel like there is nothing I can do. Marines with one marauder or so get eaten alive by lings and lots outside the wall so if my partner gets attacked I bring out my couple of guys, get slaughtered in the open, and gg  .
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PT is really amazing because of how well Medivacs work with Gateway units. I'm a MMM player because I suck with siege tanks, but having some chargezots mixed in with my bioball is simply cash. They are that one little edge that's missing which serves to pressure and they get in ahead of the stimmed infantry and hold back melee units from reaching them.
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I roll PZ with a buddy (silver league, mind you) and every team we play is usually PP or PT. if you dont harass that PP, you'll get boned. PT makes it harder to harass though, so you're even more likely to get boned.
I have no idea if I even contributed to this thread
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My favorite 2v2 combo personally is ZT because of great early rushes and terrans solid defense as Zerg pressures. I dislike PP because it doesn't seem as effective as other matchups in my eyes.
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ZZ seems to be terrible in the current map pool because zerg seems to rely on getting a big macro advantage to offset the expensive(dispensible) units. Since the 2v2 maps we have now only lets you get 2, max 3 bases comfortably, it's really a joke to play zerg in late game.
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zz is ok if one goes speedling and feeds the other one with gas for mass mutas while he keeps up with mass speedlings
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On July 30 2010 00:06 RaZzy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2010 22:02 peppermintschnaps wrote:
The reaper + ling combination of TZ is the hardest thing to face for every other team combo.
I'm very curious what the best strat is for our PT game against this TZ combo. 1/1/1 with hellions/marine into banshee if u survive that long would probably work the best. Bunkers are probably nice aswell, problem being u have to have nice placement and u cant wall off coz of the reapers.
It's very difficult on maps where u cant help ur ally that easy coz of the distances and money wasted on bunkers is a huge blunter if they attack ur ally and you lack another barracks or w/e. I can't see how you can lose to that build with PT. Maybe you need better vision of your surroundings and next time send out a scout?
u loose to an overpool + reaper on 8rax. As the players get better, the games tend to get a lot more aggressive. It is more and more uncommon for higher level 2v2s to see an expansion at all. It is true that you ultimately should have a zerg in your team, speedlings on these far distances like most maps are just too good. In addition to that, if a potential T (with the Z) making reaper makes it impossible for the P to use zealots to defend at all due to outmicroing ... making a fast stalker is never fast enough to catch a proxy reaper ... and u ll never get them fast enough for speedlings. And against 1 fast rauder with concussive shells ... stalker get raped. So what should the toss build? sentries get 4 hittet by reapers and you cant spot every proxy gate on such huge maps and even if u scout the rax ... u cant tell wheter a rauder or reaper pops out ...
9 out of 10 TZ vs xx games are reaper (8/9rax) + speedlings (overpooled) or rauder concussive (9 rax) + speedlings just to mix it up and make it even more harder for the toss to choose whether to make zealots or stalkers.
The only viable way which we've won with is basically an ally trade.
If u get the timing right (reaper either slightly before the other terran and u need to get the first shot off! hope for a bad rally point etc.) and micro properly u can kill all the terrans scvs while ur own base gets raped instead of the tosses who is always the more popular choice. U then give the toss ~600 minerals and ~200 gas u havent spent coz its pointless to tech or build more rax if u cant defend ur base at all since ur proxy rax is somwhere else on the map ... then the tosses +1 dmg grades come into play 2hitting lings ... with the terran player only slowly recovering ... this is when the toss rapes the lings and can easily destroy the two or so reapers the terra can produce in the spare time where the toss advances to finish the Terra off ...
The one-basing zerg is most often an underdog vs the tosses +1 dmg and even if he gets mutas ... the toss has just too much too quickly in the midgame. Still, this is very difficult - especially for the terran. His duell with his terran opponent is the turning point in the game. If he messes up -- gg.
I d love to hear some more deeper thoughts bout the TZ matchups. And 2v2 strats in general.
n8
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On July 30 2010 11:34 peppermintschnaps wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2010 00:06 RaZzy wrote:On July 29 2010 22:02 peppermintschnaps wrote:
The reaper + ling combination of TZ is the hardest thing to face for every other team combo.
I'm very curious what the best strat is for our PT game against this TZ combo. 1/1/1 with hellions/marine into banshee if u survive that long would probably work the best. Bunkers are probably nice aswell, problem being u have to have nice placement and u cant wall off coz of the reapers.
It's very difficult on maps where u cant help ur ally that easy coz of the distances and money wasted on bunkers is a huge blunter if they attack ur ally and you lack another barracks or w/e. I can't see how you can lose to that build with PT. Maybe you need better vision of your surroundings and next time send out a scout? u loose to an overpool + reaper on 8rax. As the players get better, the games tend to get a lot more aggressive. It is more and more uncommon for higher level 2v2s to see an expansion at all. It is true that you ultimately should have a zerg in your team, speedlings on these far distances like most maps are just too good. In addition to that, if a potential T (with the Z) making reaper makes it impossible for the P to use zealots to defend at all due to outmicroing ... making a fast stalker is never fast enough to catch a proxy reaper ... and u ll never get them fast enough for speedlings. And against 1 fast rauder with concussive shells ... stalker get raped. So what should the toss build? sentries get 4 hittet by reapers and you cant spot every proxy gate on such huge maps and even if u scout the rax ... u cant tell wheter a rauder or reaper pops out ... 9 out of 10 TZ vs xx games are reaper (8/9rax) + speedlings (overpooled) or rauder concussive (9 rax) + speedlings just to mix it up and make it even more harder for the toss to choose whether to make zealots or stalkers. The only viable way which we've won with is basically an ally trade. If u get the timing right (reaper either slightly before the other terran and u need to get the first shot off! hope for a bad rally point etc.) and micro properly u can kill all the terrans scvs while ur own base gets raped instead of the tosses who is always the more popular choice. U then give the toss ~600 minerals and ~200 gas u havent spent coz its pointless to tech or build more rax if u cant defend ur base at all since ur proxy rax is somwhere else on the map ... then the tosses +1 dmg grades come into play 2hitting lings ... with the terran player only slowly recovering ... this is when the toss rapes the lings and can easily destroy the two or so reapers the terra can produce in the spare time where the toss advances to finish the Terra off ... The one-basing zerg is most often an underdog vs the tosses +1 dmg and even if he gets mutas ... the toss has just too much too quickly in the midgame. Still, this is very difficult - especially for the terran. His duell with his terran opponent is the turning point in the game. If he messes up -- gg. I d love to hear some more deeper thoughts bout the TZ matchups. And 2v2 strats in general. n8
Pepper is totally correct.
No point even talking about tanks, vikings, storm, emp, immortals etc...
2v2 is about RUSHING.
In Broodwar we know ZZ was imbalanced mainly because of the speed of zerglings and the overall effectiveness of Zerg rushes. Getting around the map is incredibly important in 2v2.
Which brings us to Reapers....
I don't see a Terran build order other than 8rax reaper that makes sense.
The timing works that combined with a 10pool you have 6 lings + 1 reaper(2nd rallied) at someones ramp.
Protoss cannot hold that attack off.
If you go cannons the reapers will find a hole. If you block with a Zealot the reaper will kill the Zealot and the lings run in. If you make a fast Stalker the lings will kill the Stalker.
A non-reaper Terran cannot viably hold that attack off. If he's walled the Reaper+Lings will kill the wall very fast. If he has a marine the reaper will just kill it. All factory builds are too slow, marauders lose to lings.
As for Zerg it's also hard. If you make just lings the reaper kills you, if you make a fast Queen you might lose to the lings.
Right now I'm pretty sure ZT is the strongest combination. I play Terran and I have to say that reapers do kind of ruin 2v2.
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EPT
