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Starcraft 2 Too easy? Too "noob friendly"? - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Holcan
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2593 Posts
July 15 2010 21:54 GMT
#141
On July 16 2010 00:21 AtomicTon wrote:
You have to realize just because some mechanics of the game might seem "easier" or "noob friendly"
This holds true for everyone playing. Everyone has the same commands to use, tricks to play, etc. The playing field is different, but level, you know?
Ok, so it's easier to play. Then it's easier to play for everyone. If anything, this means it's easier to get better and get to a plateau, where veryone else is, meaning extremely balanced games. Even if there is a cieling where the top players get to, but don't get better, as long as everyone is at the cieling, the game will still be ridiculously competitive! Know what I'm saying? Just because it's easier for "noobs" to jump in and play, top tier players will still ultimately be in the same tier, thus creating even, tense and skill intensive games. I feel like I can't explain myself well enough right now, but basically it boils down tothis: everyone that plays SC2, is playing SC2. The playing field is the same for everyone. It's NOT SC1, but we aren't PLAYING SC1. The competition will still be great, and intense, as everyone is playing with the same deck of cards, but have different hands, or maybe different playstyles and poker faces, know what I'm sayin?




the problem when you lower the playing field, is that the players of lesser skill benefit, where as the players of good skill, do not.


+ Show Spoiler +
No, actually, that's not the case at all. When a game is made easier overall, players do not benefit equally. When a game is made easier overall, players at a lower skill level benefit much more from the change than players at a higher skill level.

Example:

If I were playing Kobe Bryant in horse, shooting jump shots, I would get absolutely destroyed. But let's say we played again, on a basketball hoop with the rim size doubled. Would I still lose? Probably. But I wouldn't lose by as much, because Kobe wouldn't really benefit from the larger rim size, since he could already hit his shots with the smaller rim size. I, on the other hand, would benefit greatly from the larger rim size, since I'm not as good at shooting baskets. So, would this change make shooting hoops easier for everyone? Yes, absolutely. That's not disputed. The relevant question is, who would benefit more from the change? Obviously, I (the lower skilled player) would benefit more, and the game would be much closer.

Example 2:

If I were playing DDR (random example, I know, but it's a sound analogy) on "expert" mode against someone who was really good, and who had already mastered all of the songs at that difficulty, I would get destroyed, because I haven't played that much DDR (although I do have some rhythm :p). But what would happen if we switched the difficulty level down to "medium"? Obviously, the competition would be much closer, even though it would be easier for everyone. This is because a player who's already mastered "expert" mode wouldn't really gain that much from moving down difficultly levels. I, on the other hand, who couldn't handle "expert" mode would benefit immensely from moving down to "medium". Again, I might not necessarily win, but it would be much closer.

These two examples deal with narrowing the skill gap in a given activity by making it easier for everyone. People bring this point up all the time: "Yeah, Source is easier, but it's easier for everyone, so it doesn't matter" - NO. Wrong.

The fact that when a game is easier, it's easier for everyone, is totally irrelevant in the Source/1.6 discourse. The relevant question is, "who benefits from Source being easier?" And obviously, just as a basketball player who couldn't hit as many shots with a smaller hoop would benefit more from a doubled rim diameter than Kobe Bryant would, and a DDR player who couldn't beat "expert" would benefit more from moving down to "medium" than a player would could already beat "expert" would, gamers who can't play at the top level in CS 1.6 benefit more from moving to Source (the easier game of the two; a game with bigger targets, easier guns, relatively slower movement, and stronger flashbangs) than the gamers who already could play at the highest level in 1.6 do.

This is why it's called "narrowing the skill gap", because all of a sudden, there is tight competition, where before, there was no tight competition. Everyone in Counter-Strike culture knows that Source players cannot transition to 1.6, while 1.6 players can transition to Source, and that if a team like Hyper were to play a team like coL in 1.6, it would be an absolute blowout. But in Source, since the skill gap has been narrowed, there's legitimate competition all of a sudden. The teams are at the same level. This is because, when a game is made easier, even though it's easier for everyone, the change serves to level the playing field, because players of a lower skill level benefit more from the change than players of a higher skill level.



there is a good post by Alex "chibsquad" Garfield from Team Evil Genius.
Reference The Inadvertant Joey, Strong talented orchastrasted intelligent character.
Phayze
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2029 Posts
July 15 2010 21:59 GMT
#142
Good read, but i disagree with the transition from source to 1.6. Theres a little bit of elitism in his statement, and really there are tons of teams who went back from source to 1.6.
Proud member of the LGA-1366 Core-i7 4Ghz Club
MindRush
Profile Joined April 2010
Romania916 Posts
July 15 2010 22:02 GMT
#143
On July 15 2010 11:47 Psychopomp wrote:
Show nested quote +
I don't understand how a PvP (player vs player) game can ever be labeled as "too easy". How difficult the game is depends on your competition.


This. All I can figure out, is that they're whining about the game having a simple, clean, easy to use interface.


MBS and MUS (multiple building selection and multiple unit selection) is normal for a year-2010 game
Come on, people, you don't really expect to play SC2 like you played BW (checkout some past threads on this forum)

It is easier to macro now, but Blizzard introduced some nice and logic ways to make macro a bit more difficult (mules, queens, crono) - which make sense and don't seem dumb and boring.

Also, choosing from mule-scan-supplydrop, or spawnlarvae-heal-creeptumor or choosing which building to chrono boost is as much macro as it is strategical choice.

The game is fine as it is
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
Holcan
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2593 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-15 22:06:08
July 15 2010 22:05 GMT
#144
On July 16 2010 06:59 Phayze wrote:
Good read, but i disagree with the transition from source to 1.6. Theres a little bit of elitism in his statement, and really there are tons of teams who went back from source to 1.6.



this was in written in 2007, before the exodus, and only 1 source player really made it out, moE, who had past 1.6 (cal-p) experience.
Reference The Inadvertant Joey, Strong talented orchastrasted intelligent character.
pieisamazing
Profile Joined May 2009
United States1234 Posts
July 15 2010 22:06 GMT
#145
"The game is a BETA" is no longer an argument. This game comes out in less than two weeks and you think all of these problems are going to disappear at release? Give me a break.

Adding a couple hitpoints here, reducing build time there, is not going to fix the game.
connoisseur
Nagano
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1157 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-15 22:14:18
July 15 2010 22:13 GMT
#146

Example:

If I were playing Kobe Bryant in horse, shooting jump shots, I would get absolutely destroyed. But let's say we played again, on a basketball hoop with the rim size doubled. Would I still lose? Probably. But I wouldn't lose by as much, because Kobe wouldn't really benefit from the larger rim size, since he could already hit his shots with the smaller rim size. I, on the other hand, would benefit greatly from the larger rim size, since I'm not as good at shooting baskets. So, would this change make shooting hoops easier for everyone? Yes, absolutely. That's not disputed. The relevant question is, who would benefit more from the change? Obviously, I (the lower skilled player) would benefit more, and the game would be much closer.


I'd say this analogy is flawed and was created to illustrate his notion that lowering the mechanical interface of starcraft benefits the lower skilled player. A better analogy to illustrate the leveling of the mechanical aspect of basketball would be to have every player have the same physical fitness and performance potential. That way we would see who the best player was by his strategy, tactics, and teamwork, rather than just his physical prowess. Basketball, however, is a physical and team sport, while starcraft is a strategy game. It would only make perfect sense to reduce the mechanical and physical limitations in order to emphasize just that--the strategical aspect of starcraft.
“The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.”
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
July 15 2010 22:18 GMT
#147
Its an easy to get the hang of game, but its really hard to master. I think it will be an improvement over BW as time progresses.
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
vesicular
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1310 Posts
July 15 2010 22:19 GMT
#148
On July 16 2010 07:06 pieisamazing wrote:
"The game is a BETA" is no longer an argument. This game comes out in less than two weeks and you think all of these problems are going to disappear at release? Give me a break.

Adding a couple hitpoints here, reducing build time there, is not going to fix the game.


What exactly is wrong with the game? For a 1.0 release the game is pretty damn solid. I'd say it's about as good as we could expect.
STX Fighting!
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
July 15 2010 22:26 GMT
#149
On July 16 2010 07:19 vesicular wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2010 07:06 pieisamazing wrote:
"The game is a BETA" is no longer an argument. This game comes out in less than two weeks and you think all of these problems are going to disappear at release? Give me a break.

Adding a couple hitpoints here, reducing build time there, is not going to fix the game.


What exactly is wrong with the game? For a 1.0 release the game is pretty damn solid. I'd say it's about as good as we could expect.

agreed. I think SC2:WoL is in a better state than Starcraft vanilla, and they can continue to work on it after it's released and make it immensely better like what they did from SC to BW, WC3 to TFT.
[RB]Black
Profile Joined July 2004
United States55 Posts
July 15 2010 22:30 GMT
#150
I think bw is more simple truthfully, and all of you are already coming into this game with RTS (BW/Wc3) background. OF COURSE the new rts will seem easier than the first game you learned on. That initial shock of rts play is pretty insane, but once you can play rts games very well it's not too bad to transition into the next.

Look at early SC. it was dominated by wc2 players from kali in the early parts.


Grond
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
599 Posts
July 15 2010 22:31 GMT
#151
On July 15 2010 11:52 Wr3k wrote:
SC2 is definitely easier to play. However it still has an obscenely high skill ceiling like its predecessor (unless you play protoss).

+ Show Spoiler +
Just kidding don't get all buthurt if you play protoss. Actually on second thought I'm not completely kidding


Isn't Protoss far less than 33% of the top players?
Valikyr
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden2653 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-15 22:36:24
July 15 2010 22:35 GMT
#152
I think that SC2 will be just as demanding as BW on a higher level if not even more demanding. Sure it's easier to get hang of the basics but that's it really.

The skill of the very top players now will probarbly be your average diamond/high platinum player in a year.
EliteAzn
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States661 Posts
July 15 2010 22:35 GMT
#153
Noob Friendly: yes, too easy: no

It's nice to have a game that people who are new to rts's can pick up...however ease in play depends on the competition (I believe this has been said a bunch of times...because it's true)

I like the game how it is...now it's just balancing and such (which it's almost there...just need more gameplay/data)
(╯`Д´)╯︵ ┻━┻ High Five! _o /\ o_
Holcan
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2593 Posts
July 15 2010 22:57 GMT
#154
On July 16 2010 07:13 Nagano wrote:
Show nested quote +

Example:

If I were playing Kobe Bryant in horse, shooting jump shots, I would get absolutely destroyed. But let's say we played again, on a basketball hoop with the rim size doubled. Would I still lose? Probably. But I wouldn't lose by as much, because Kobe wouldn't really benefit from the larger rim size, since he could already hit his shots with the smaller rim size. I, on the other hand, would benefit greatly from the larger rim size, since I'm not as good at shooting baskets. So, would this change make shooting hoops easier for everyone? Yes, absolutely. That's not disputed. The relevant question is, who would benefit more from the change? Obviously, I (the lower skilled player) would benefit more, and the game would be much closer.


I'd say this analogy is flawed and was created to illustrate his notion that lowering the mechanical interface of starcraft benefits the lower skilled player. A better analogy to illustrate the leveling of the mechanical aspect of basketball would be to have every player have the same physical fitness and performance potential. That way we would see who the best player was by his strategy, tactics, and teamwork, rather than just his physical prowess. Basketball, however, is a physical and team sport, while starcraft is a strategy game. It would only make perfect sense to reduce the mechanical and physical limitations in order to emphasize just that--the strategical aspect of starcraft.



We arent talking about basketball, we are talking about a game of horse, and the analogy was clearly made 3 years prior to the release of sc2, so it definitely was not created to illustrate a specific point, especially about starcraft. You sure do sound smart though.
Reference The Inadvertant Joey, Strong talented orchastrasted intelligent character.
Aberu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States968 Posts
July 15 2010 23:03 GMT
#155
On July 15 2010 11:49 Ballistixz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2010 11:36 cr4ckshot wrote:
Easy to play, hard to master. Whereas BW was hard to play and hard to master



^ this pretty much sums it up. sc2 is easy for ppl just starting out, but ull never get to be a top player unless u practice practice practice. in sc1 it was hard for anyone to get into, and once u finnaly did master the controls u still had hell of a long way to go to get any good at the game.



Really SC1 before broodwar, upon release was like this? I highly doubt that. Maybe broodwar post ICCup, but SC2 will be hard to get into 5 years down the line as well I'm sure.
srsly
Keitzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2509 Posts
July 15 2010 23:05 GMT
#156
On July 15 2010 11:36 cr4ckshot wrote:
Easy to play, hard to master. Whereas BW was hard to play and hard to master



This.... kinda same with a lot of other games/stuff i've played and heard of over the years

like chess, it's easy to learn the pieces, but very hard to become great at playing Chess
I'm like badass squared | KeitZer.489
Aberu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States968 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-15 23:10:57
July 15 2010 23:09 GMT
#157
The fact of the matter is, the game's development, and the utilization by players currently is too young at the moment to make any assertions. Have we seen custom maps that give more ability to players to go double fast expand builds viably yet? No.

Have we seen any player REALLY play at the level that SCBW Korean pros play? NONONO.

They are playing SMART at the moment, and they have good macro. Do they consantly harass with drops all freagin game? Do they constantly move back and move back in damaged units? Are zerg players using queens to heal their units during fights in the middle of the map while also moving the units, while harassing a mineral line with a drop, while macroing up units, while managing another fight? NO.

This is not on the level of SCBW not because of how simple it is to play, but because the game is young. People have to still get adjusted to what safe timings and opportunity windows are out there for things to do. There are plenty of high end pro games currently where both players pretty much just both sit there, occasionally attack, have one big battle, and one loses. That's not how a top Korean pro from the Broodwar scene would play this game, I guarantee you, and they will find a work to make high aggression, high skill cap style play dominant. Stop jumping the gun and crying Fire Fire!

And I think people don't realize that if Broodwar allowed you to select infinite units and have better pathing, the game would still require (at high level play) you to have seperate group hotkeys for various reasons. The different group hotkeys isn't because you have to have your hydras in 3 seperate groups due to game restrictions, it also gives you more dynamic control of the units. How come people don't see this?
srsly
Baarn
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2702 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-15 23:24:24
July 15 2010 23:23 GMT
#158
On July 16 2010 07:31 Grond wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2010 11:52 Wr3k wrote:
SC2 is definitely easier to play. However it still has an obscenely high skill ceiling like its predecessor (unless you play protoss).

+ Show Spoiler +
Just kidding don't get all buthurt if you play protoss. Actually on second thought I'm not completely kidding


Isn't Protoss far less than 33% of the top players?


Protoss is just as difficult if not more now than it is in BW. It's all about time management. Sure you can mbs and automine unlike BW but the same distractions still exist that would keep you from pumping more units or making other decisions. Once maybe someone can reach the skill level Bisu has in BW you'll really start to see how SC2 is the same game mechanics-wise. Some fixes have been made also to some of the cheese from BW that makes life easier for certain matchups but that's a whole other topic.
There's no S in KT. :P
Matiz_pl
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland163 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-16 00:06:27
July 16 2010 00:05 GMT
#159
There is no such thing as mastering the game. I've been competitive player in ra3, people claimed it was no-skill noob game. They were worrying what happens 6 months after the release of game, they were saying there won't be anything more to learn. Yea it wasn't as complicated as sc:bw, but still, some players were better than others, and I saw the best players doing things that could have been done better and there was no problem with skill ceiling, best players were best, and worse players were loosing to them.

There is always room to improve, you can micro your zealot a bit better, you can sneak another drone in the builid, maybe get upgrade earlier or something. For a human being it's imo impossible to do everything perfectly. Therefore there's no need to cry about skill cap, that game will be mastered very soon and we will have ties every game between top players (lol).

Yea sc2 is easier than scbw, but it is still very deep game and there will be a lot of room for improvement. Even koreans with they insane skill won't play perfect, because just like in chess, in sc2 you have hundreds of options and BO's and you can't predict them and adapt to them perfectly.
"Competitive gaming consists of one and only one rule. You use what wins. " - FuumaMonou
UbiNax
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark381 Posts
July 16 2010 00:10 GMT
#160
i think its GREAT that its user friendly, but as other people have said, its still really hard to master.
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