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On July 07 2010 01:39 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 01:02 Calamity wrote:On July 06 2010 23:52 MorroW wrote:+ Show Spoiler +a small clip i made to demonstrate fazing and how freaking good ai bots can do it, at one point it reached up to 8 attacks in 1 second while i can max do 4-5 :p sry for the quality being sucky,cant change to windowed mode when playing custom maps without bnet 2 + Show Spoiler +heres another demonstration i made (even worse quality<3) to show how distance doesnt matter in attack speed, only that angle does. stacking and being in a line gave almost same results while surrounding attacked alot slower. circle gave 4-5 attacks per second line 5-8 attacks per second stack 6-8 attacks per second now remember players wont be able to do this as good as ai bots even how much they practice, they can reach almost optimal results but its close to impossible thats why i hope blizzard keeps this because its totally baller to see voidray control now ^^ after it got range nerf the kiting got pretty much removed and there was no micro left but now this is in the game and it should create for some interesting micro scenarios On July 06 2010 23:51 TheFinalWord wrote:
This has probably been asked. I know that clicked between 2 units doesn't increase damage beyond a certain speed, but what if you change targets to a whole line of units? If you got a void ray and somehow managed to right click on 10 different enemies in a second, would they all take damage? or is there a limit to how fast it can switch targets? to change target takes a small duration of time, about 0.1 sec but the weapon requires that u look at the enemy when taking initial attack so if u line up 10 marines around the voidray it will take some time for him to turn around while if u put 10 supply depots in a line that pushes out of the voidray and it can attack all supply without moving then ye i think it can attack 10~ attacks in a second, maybe a little less :p its all about how spread out the opponent is I've posted this before and if there is no delay in fazing, and a player could change the targets in less than 0.1 sec, it would render a fully charged void ray useful for naked buildings and naked units. well my vod vs stacked supply depot demonstrates that the absolute maximum attacks per second is 8 which is 0.125attack/s (40dmg/sec) (32dmg/sec vs structures cause of armor) and now stacked buildings cant exist in a melee game and players wouldnt be able to change targets(^^) so that would force the voidray to be in exact same line as the target structures to reach this amount of damage, even an inch wrong direction and ull drop 3~ attacks per second(12dps~) so all and all it takes a huge chunk of skill to make fazing a real threat against marines and compete with fully charged with fazing. even if u got optimal micro its arguable if the fazing is worth money-wise with 1 voidray vs 3+ marines, vs 2 marines its probably very effective
Can't believe I didn't see that second video when I posted lol 
Well I lost my argument for fazing for armored units and buildings. When you factor in the armor of the structure in the damage calculation for stage 3 beams:
24 /0.6 = 40 DPS
The DPS drops less than 2 than without armor. DPS for fazing drops fast with every armor added or upgraded. (40 -> 32 against 1 armor) (40 -> 16 against max armor)
As for if it's worth it or not, I think fazing would work quite well if it's early, and you're constantly poking into the base of the Terran. You can faze scvs and do some damage to the economy. With fazing, you can kill a bit more marines and then pull back when the shields are almost done to heal. I think it's in late game when fazing may look effectiveness. Of course, this is all theory and i'd like beta to come back up so we can do some real testing >:D
I would like to see more testing with fazing with more void rays and see if there are any differences. Sweet testing map btw.
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if this was already posted please just ignore it.
but this technique in a fight is only viable if you fight many light units. if you fight for example stalkters or vikings or so, it´s more effektive to divide the voidrayattacks amongst the opposing units to let them charge fully.
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On July 07 2010 01:57 Kakisho wrote:
Fazing works because there is a low startup cooldown and a large after-animation which can be canceled into another attack. Similar to 'orb walking' in Warcraft 3 where you can cancel the last part of an attack's animation so the unit is idle and ready to move or shoot another.
Then wouldn't that mean you could faze single units. Without having to change targets?
All you'd have to do is attack, stop, attack stop. In a fashion so each attack would hit, but stop immediately afterwards. The reason why this should work is because it's the exact same process as with fazing two units. You'd attack, and when you attack a different unit, the original attack is stopped, and you attack again before the animation's cooldown would've been over, had you never canceled it. This allows you to get multiple hits in, faster, which is why fazing has a higher damage output.
Is this correct?
this is not possible because the void ray beam gets stuck to the target and can attack while hunting it etc. only way to break it is to change angle or change target. u gotta exit about a 45degree to stop attacking it but this is far enough to make fazing against single units inefficient as hell
On July 07 2010 02:10 Calamity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 01:39 MorroW wrote:On July 07 2010 01:02 Calamity wrote:On July 06 2010 23:52 MorroW wrote:+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZKL7PS7lIg a small clip i made to demonstrate fazing and how freaking good ai bots can do it, at one point it reached up to 8 attacks in 1 second while i can max do 4-5 :p sry for the quality being sucky,cant change to windowed mode when playing custom maps without bnet 2 + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN14Nyk18lk heres another demonstration i made (even worse quality<3) to show how distance doesnt matter in attack speed, only that angle does. stacking and being in a line gave almost same results while surrounding attacked alot slower. circle gave 4-5 attacks per second line 5-8 attacks per second stack 6-8 attacks per second now remember players wont be able to do this as good as ai bots even how much they practice, they can reach almost optimal results but its close to impossible thats why i hope blizzard keeps this because its totally baller to see voidray control now ^^ after it got range nerf the kiting got pretty much removed and there was no micro left but now this is in the game and it should create for some interesting micro scenarios On July 06 2010 23:51 TheFinalWord wrote:
This has probably been asked. I know that clicked between 2 units doesn't increase damage beyond a certain speed, but what if you change targets to a whole line of units? If you got a void ray and somehow managed to right click on 10 different enemies in a second, would they all take damage? or is there a limit to how fast it can switch targets? to change target takes a small duration of time, about 0.1 sec but the weapon requires that u look at the enemy when taking initial attack so if u line up 10 marines around the voidray it will take some time for him to turn around while if u put 10 supply depots in a line that pushes out of the voidray and it can attack all supply without moving then ye i think it can attack 10~ attacks in a second, maybe a little less :p its all about how spread out the opponent is I've posted this before and if there is no delay in fazing, and a player could change the targets in less than 0.1 sec, it would render a fully charged void ray useful for naked buildings and naked units. well my vod vs stacked supply depot demonstrates that the absolute maximum attacks per second is 8 which is 0.125attack/s (40dmg/sec) (32dmg/sec vs structures cause of armor) and now stacked buildings cant exist in a melee game and players wouldnt be able to change targets(^^) so that would force the voidray to be in exact same line as the target structures to reach this amount of damage, even an inch wrong direction and ull drop 3~ attacks per second(12dps~) so all and all it takes a huge chunk of skill to make fazing a real threat against marines and compete with fully charged with fazing. even if u got optimal micro its arguable if the fazing is worth money-wise with 1 voidray vs 3+ marines, vs 2 marines its probably very effective Can't believe I didn't see that second video when I posted lol Well I lost my argument for fazing for armored units and buildings. When you factor in the armor of the structure in the damage calculation for stage 3 beams: 24 /0.6 = 40 DPS The DPS drops less than 2 than without armor. DPS for fazing drops fast with every armor added or upgraded. (40 -> 32 against 1 armor) (40 -> 16 against max armor) As for if it's worth it or not, I think fazing would work quite well if it's early, and you're constantly poking into the base of the Terran. You can faze scvs and do some damage to the economy. With fazing, you can kill a bit more marines and then pull back when the shields are almost done to heal. I think it's in late game when fazing may look effectiveness. Of course, this is all theory and i'd like beta to come back up so we can do some real testing >:D I would like to see more testing with fazing with more void rays and see if there are any differences. Sweet testing map btw.
i could upload the map if u want
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Everyone running tests please realize the efficiency is not determined by how fast you click between 2 targets, but how many targets overall you can click between in the .6 second tick window. Thus, if you are cycling through 4-5 targets in this time, they should all take full damage.
This means damage scales proportionately to the number of targets (assuming the APM/accuracy to support it). This is absolutely crazy for early-game engagements.
Basically this means damage will scale with click speed. Can't wait to see all the AI tests of how many of each unit max can be taken out in X amount of time.
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On July 07 2010 03:51 tedster wrote:
Everyone running tests please realize the efficiency is not determined by how fast you click between 2 targets, but how many targets overall you can click between in the .6 second tick window. Thus, if you are cycling through 4-5 targets in this time, they should all take full damage.
This means damage scales proportionately to the number of targets (assuming the APM/accuracy to support it). This is absolutely crazy for early-game engagements.
Basically this means damage will scale with click speed. Can't wait to see all the AI tests of how many of each unit max can be taken out in X amount of time.
Didn't you see those videos? The AI took out 2 marines in roughly 2 seconds! That is way faster than you can take out a single marine.
Edit: And I think the biggest problem is that with this technique they would counter mutas which is really bad.
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this may make a good target out of geysers... if you can get both for the price of one it could be a big deal...
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The increase in damage by microing is still substantially less than a charged Void Ray does. Since the player has to forfeit charged damage and invest a lot of micro I doubt it will be changed for balance reasons. However Blizzard may change it for other reasons.
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Fazing looks pretty sexy... definitely makes void rays imba...
Anyways, the real question: Will Blizzard patch this?
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dunno, the only way I COULD see them patching is create a timer between the damage. which would suck. PLease don't patch ThIS BLiZz, It iS neXT to ImpOSsiBLE to miCrO PErfECTLY!!!
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This is clearly not the intention of the unit and it shouldnt be up to the player to 'know' that void rays can do this. Anything where a normal player would have a large disadvantage over a team liquid forum user player should be fixed.
Example, if i played a PvP and we happened to have a 2 void ray vs 2 void ray fight in the early mid game, i would lose pathetically to this trick if i didnt know it and subsequently have a huge disadvantage and lose the game.
Is that fair?
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On July 07 2010 04:07 Grond wrote:
The increase in damage by microing is still substantially less than a charged Void Ray does. Since the player has to forfeit charged damage and invest a lot of micro I doubt it will be changed for balance reasons. However Blizzard may change it for other reasons.
Read the last few pages I think 13 to 15. We've found that fazing does a lot more damage against non-armored units than letting it charge. Although it's a lot harder to faze against spread out units, and massed small units. Against armored and buildings, a charged beam would work better.
On July 07 2010 04:26 Day[10] wrote:
dunno, the only way I COULD see them patching is create a timer between the damage. which would suck. PLease don't patch ThIS BLiZz, It iS neXT to ImpOSsiBLE to miCrO PErfECTLY!!!
They did make void rays have a slow animation when switching targets and attacking in alpha. It opens up the claws at the front and then fires the beam every time. You can see that small units would just murder them xD
@ morrow
If you could please do :D
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this might've just delayed the beta release
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On July 07 2010 04:32 DC Elite wrote:
This is clearly not the intention of the unit and it shouldnt be up to the player to 'know' that void rays can do this. Anything where a normal player would have a large disadvantage over a team liquid forum user player should be fixed.
Example, if i played a PvP and we happened to have a 2 void ray vs 2 void ray fight in the early mid game, i would lose pathetically to this trick if i didnt know it and subsequently have a huge disadvantage and lose the game.
Is that fair?
Of course it is. You may as well say build trees should be simplified so that one can't gain an advantage by using tl to improve their build order. These sorts of tricks were everywhere in bw with patrol micro, magic boxes, binding your mutas to an overlord for better stacking, etc. People should be rewarded for doing their homework.
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On July 07 2010 04:39 3clipse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 04:32 DC Elite wrote:
This is clearly not the intention of the unit and it shouldnt be up to the player to 'know' that void rays can do this. Anything where a normal player would have a large disadvantage over a team liquid forum user player should be fixed.
Example, if i played a PvP and we happened to have a 2 void ray vs 2 void ray fight in the early mid game, i would lose pathetically to this trick if i didnt know it and subsequently have a huge disadvantage and lose the game.
Is that fair?
Of course it is. You may as well say build trees should be simplified so that one can't gain an advantage by using tl to improve their build order. These sorts of tricks were everywhere in bw with patrol micro, magic boxes, binding your mutas to an overlord for better stacking, etc. People should be rewarded for doing their homework.
This VR thing is a glitch and i dont see it on the same level as simple tricks you could probably figure out without having to do your homework. This isnt a cool trick, its abuse of something that was accidentally missed in coding, plain and simple. I refuse to believe blizz intended for there to be machine gun rate firing of a unit if you could slick faster.
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It happens with every unit that deals "damage over time" instead of "shooting"/"hitting". It happens with sentries too
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I hope this doesn't get patched almost purely because the OP did such a baller job getting it named fazing. Hilariously awesome that his name was such a good fit for the technique.
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Between using both this at the right times, and the original void ray micro (keeping charge up while moving with at least 1 other unit)at other times, there is a long evolution ahead for Void Ray control. It seems their control will require high skill as it will be difficult to multitask alongside with.
Can't wait to see Jaedong Void Rays. 
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a few points I want to address:
someone said that you can't charge on a single marine - you actually can.
+ Show Spoiler +the void ray, even though it has only two attack levels, it actually still has three stages, it just so happens that the second stage does not add any damage.
when you switch targets (or when the target dies), you will always revert back to the stage you were at previously.
so, the void ray does 5 damage per .6 seconds. a marine has 45 HP.
40 HP - tick 1 (0.0 seconds)
35 HP - tick 2 (0.6 seconds)
30 HP - tick 3 (1.2 seconds)
25 HP - tick 4 (1.8 seconds)
20 HP - tick 5 (2.4 seconds)
15 HP - tick 6 (3.0 seconds)
10 HP - tick 7 (3.6 seconds)
5 HP - tick 8 (4.2 seconds)
0 HP - tick 9 (4.8 seconds)
(forgive me in advance if my math is wrong, but trust me, it works out ingame!)
according to the wiki, it takes 7.2 seconds to fully charge a void ray. but remember that there are three "stages" of attack. the void ray, upon killing the marine, is in its second stage (at tick 7, if I'm not mistaken).
when the marine dies, the void ray will switch targets, but because it was in its second stage upon killing the marine, it will reset back to that stage (at 3.6 seconds). this means the void ray only has to charge 3.6 seconds on the second marine to reach full charge. only two ticks are "wasted" (tick 8 and 9) in terms of efficiency.
of course this would all change if you had three void rays or something, where they would kill the units before reaching their second stage, which would then reset them back to the first stage upon switching targets.
tl;dr: a single void ray can reach full charge on any collection of units except for banelings and broodlings.
point 2:
as others have said, you are merely splitting the damage. you are increasing damage output because you are hitting more targets, but not because you are doing more damage to a single individual target.
also, keep in mind that this is only good against lower tier units in which you wouldn't reach level three charge. you wouldn't see this on an Ultralisk or a Carrier, because the tier 3 damage will eventually out-dps the fazing trick.
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On July 07 2010 01:32 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 22:57 lovewithlea wrote:
made some tests. 4 voids win vs 14 battleshield marines with fazing about 2-3 VRs left, while 4+ are left of the marines without fazing.
this is nuts I don't remember VR cost, how does 4 VRs compare to 700 min + upgrade costs?
4 voids = 4*250m; 4*150g; 4*140s
= 1000m 600g 560" =
1000m; 600g; 9.3' (minutes)
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ehm, a void builds in 60 secs, thats why u can use exactly 2 chronoboosts on it...
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EPT
