EPTAutomated Tournaments and the Monetization of Bnet - Page 4
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AlecPyron
United States131 Posts
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gobertech
United States11 Posts
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
I suppose it could be optional, but then you NEED to pay money to be someone in the SC community. It also means you need to have a credit card of some sort to play SC2, instantly alienating a chunk of the community. You already mentioned that this is esports, not gambling. Making an argument that buying SC2, paying for internet and paying the monthly fee for WoW are equal is just wrong... By paying monthly fee and paying for SC2 as a game, you know that the money you spend is going towards the games development, the developers, the company that made the game and will make future games. Paying a tournament fee that goes towards the winners isn't going directly towards the game. This is not Poker. Now I am not saying that this concept is bad... because it would definitely push the game in a positive direction. But to have these things automated, running all the time and and having tiny prize pools is wrong for the direction of the game. As has been said, eSports really should be about gaining money, not losing money. This would ONLY work if the game SC2 was free itself, like these poker sites. The wrong people would be attracted to the game... The game would be about money and not about entertainment The image would be broken. The game would need to go up from T to M or AO. If you want this game to be a serious spectator sport it should be supported by the spectators. When do football players pool their money together at the beginning of the series? It should be about sponsorship and spectating primarily. Some websites could run things like this just fine, occasional tournies would be cool and such, but Blizz should not implement this as part of their game or in Battle.net 2.0 or anything. I think the biggest thing I don't understand about this poll tho... is how people can support Blizzard earning money here? People scream and whine and bitch every time there is any possibility of the game being monotized... premium maps for example. Seems pretty hypocritical of you people to hate the concept of Blizzard earning money, then support this idea... | ||
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Teddyman
Finland362 Posts
Some payouts randomly pulled out of my ass: 8-player single elimination, $5 buy-in: 1st place $28, 2nd place $12 150 player swiss rounds + single elimination, $2 buy-in: 1st place $120, 2nd place $60, Ro4 $20, Ro8 $10, Ro16 $5 | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
That's not to say I wouldn't do it. I'm fairly confident I'd make money in the long run if this were implamented so I'm all for it, but I don't think it's needed. Also the "automated" part has me worried. When WC3 had the automated tourney system I played vs many of the top koreans in the tournaments and several times I couldn't connect with them and I would recieve free wins or losses. Sometimes it wouldn't even attempt to connect us and since it's automated the system isn't regularly checked for errors like this. They would have to have a person oversee it especially if $$ is involved. Would suck to lose in the finals w/ out actually playing because the game failed to host and default winned the other guy (this happened in WC3 a lot) | ||
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febreze
167 Posts
I can see this being incorporated in the special tournament bnet they mentioned earlier. | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
Balance: Poker: 52 Cards. Same cards for each player. Randomized. Balanced SC2: Any tiny imbalance wrecks everything. Losses can be blamed on balance issues, easy modes etc etc. Cheating: Poker: Unhackable. You don't need to send packets of info to other players because things like replays are unnecessary and players don't need to share info. SC2: Hackable. There will always be hacks. | ||
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raph
United States204 Posts
i think that you could have an anti hack loaded up, play some preliminary rounds and then start the tournament, then dont allow the players to restart the game at all during the tournaments so itd detect if something in the game itself changed. not sure if this is perfect but it seems like a start | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On June 18 2010 09:45 StarStruck wrote: Blizzard wouldn't be able to add such a feature sadly due to international laws on gambling. This would be illegal in several countries. I like the initiative, but there would be far too many barriers to get such a thing up officially. If you want to host such a tournament, it would have to be under the table.  Anyone from said country would just not be able to join those tournaments. On June 18 2010 09:48 Morayfire73 wrote: I like this idea, however for something as complex as starcraft, having no refs but blizzard could be a problem. Just look at a bunch of tournements where people disconnect, second TL invitational comes to mind, with the game between Artosis, and Slush. If Blizzard were to implement a system like this, they would have no good way to deal with logistical stuff like what happens with a disconnect. Just looking at some of the logistical stuff that tournament organizers have to deal with is mind boggling, the system you presented would work, but I don't think any very serious or large prize pools would ever be available due to Blizzards inability to handle the logistical stuff. If it's an automated system, admins will only be needed when something goes wrong, I think it would be managable. On June 18 2010 09:49 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: wow, this is a brilliant idea! i really like it! i dont like anything related to betting though, it seems like it could ruin esports the way it ruined it in korea  Betting only ruined it because it's illegal there and thus unregulated. Regulated betting is good. However, this isn't betting. I would be in favour of betting too, but this isn't it  | ||
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Teddyman
Finland362 Posts
On June 18 2010 10:23 Zanez.smarty wrote: SC2: Any tiny imbalance wrecks everything. Losses can be blamed on balance issues, easy modes etc etc. You can just ban Artosis and Idra from attending. | ||
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chuninexam
Canada56 Posts
On June 18 2010 10:23 Zanez.smarty wrote: Also... Balance: Poker: 52 Cards. Same cards for each player. Randomized. Balanced SC2: Any tiny imbalance wrecks everything. Losses can be blamed on balance issues, easy modes etc etc. Cheating: Poker: Unhackable. You don't need to send packets of info to other players because things like replays are unnecessary and players don't need to share info. SC2: Hackable. There will always be hacks. Good points. These points alone - especially the cheating - are good enough reasons that this can never be implemented. It's unfortunate that there are hacks for sc2 =/ | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
On June 18 2010 10:25 FrozenArbiter wrote: Anyone from said country would just not be able to join those tournaments. BAM instant alienation and regional imbalance, legal issues (people ignoring the countries laws, bypassing the boundaries, etc etc). | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
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SouL)R(MizaR
Australia111 Posts
The best way to this ballance would be to have a new ranking for money tourneies and you are promoted on your win percentage. Hackers: unless they have zero tollerence to hacking on thier servers then i doubt anyone would risk playing in these tournies | ||
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PokePill
United States1048 Posts
Then there's the fact you say Starcraft 2 is a "skill" game and there's very little luck, that only promotes the idea that no one would want to play competitively. Professional players will dominate all tiers of play and the money will always trickle down to the elite players, as in not a single US player would get a stable income from this because all the elite euro and asian players who train 8 hours a day with teams will destroy and feed off of the inferior US players. Blizzard wants to monetize their platform by targeting casual gamers, casual gamers are not going to be playing ladder at all down the road because of how extremely competitive the 1v1 ladder already is in their eyes, and they are definitely not going to want to gamble money to have no chance of beating people who "train" all day. There will be NO ONE using this, even after it is initially a success and people are using it. The lower tier competitive gamers will never win and they will stop playing because they will be embarassed by their winrates and lack of success and they will be burning money so they will be forced to quit. Do you think if any of the US/Euro tournaments required a sign up fee that a more than negligible amount of people would participate? Imagine if that micro/macro tournament cost $20 to enter and had a larger prize pool. Do you think even teams like Root or VT would participate? They probably would but after constantly losing to superior US/Euro/Asia players they would probably abandon the game all together very quickly, since there will be no more free tournaments and they would have no chance of getting past a line up of massively better players. This would destroy the game, for both eSports and casual gamers. Fortunately this would absolutely never happen. | ||
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On June 18 2010 10:18 Zanez.smarty wrote: Terrible idea for any number of reasons that you mentioned. I suppose it could be optional, but then you NEED to pay money to be someone in the SC community. It also means you need to have a credit card of some sort to play SC2, instantly alienating a chunk of the community. World of Warcraft. Also, it wouldn't be the only form of tournaments, the big tournaments would be the same as the ones now - the weeklies, the invitationals, OSL/MSL/TSL/HDH type events. Think about it, a 16 man 1$ tournament is gonna have a first place prize of 8$ - that's hardly going to make headlines. You already mentioned that this is esports, not gambling. Making an argument that buying SC2, paying for internet and paying the monthly fee for WoW are equal is just wrong... By paying monthly fee and paying for SC2 as a game, you know that the money you spend is going towards the games development, the developers, the company that made the game and will make future games. Paying a tournament fee that goes towards the winners isn't going directly towards the game. This is not Poker. You are paying for entertainment. A part of the fee would go to Blizzard. I do not see the problem. Now I am not saying that this concept is bad... because it would definitely push the game in a positive direction. But to have these things automated, running all the time and and having tiny prize pools is wrong for the direction of the game. As has been said, eSports really should be about gaining money, not losing money. This would ONLY work if the game SC2 was free itself, like these poker sites. You are losing money by buying the game... You are losing money everytime you pay for another month of WoW. Again, I don't see the problem. The wrong people would be attracted to the game... Majority of todays succesful online poker players are 19-20~somethings in college. The game would be about money and not about entertainment No, it would be about both - and this is entirely optional. The image would be broken. The game would need to go up from T to M or AO. Why? It isn't gambling. If you want this game to be a serious spectator sport it should be supported by the spectators. When do football players pool their money together at the beginning of the series? It should be about sponsorship and spectating primarily. Some websites could run things like this just fine, occasional tournies would be cool and such, but Blizz should not implement this as part of their game or in Battle.net 2.0 or anything. Why? There are tonnes of tournaments with entry fees in ANY sport. I think the biggest thing I don't understand about this poll tho... is how people can support Blizzard earning money here? People scream and whine and bitch every time there is any possibility of the game being monotized... premium maps for example. Seems pretty hypocritical of you people to hate the concept of Blizzard earning money, then support this idea... Because they are providing a service I want, and I recognize that it costs them money to do so. Providing cross region play? Does not cost them. Then there's the fact you say Starcraft 2 is a "skill" game and there's very little luck, that only promotes the idea that no one would want to play competitively. Professional players will dominate all tiers of play and the money will always trickle down to the elite players, as in not a single US player would get a stable income from this because all the elite euro and asian players who train 8 hours a day with teams will destroy and feed off of the inferior US players. Blizzard wants to monetize their platform by targeting casual gamers, casual gamers are not going to be playing ladder at all down the road because of how extremely competitive the 1v1 ladder already is in their eyes, and they are definitely not going to want to gamble money to have no chance of beating people who "train" all day. There will be NO ONE using this, even after it is initially a success and people are using it. If you read my post, you would see the suggestion for the tournaments to be tied into your division. You are a bronze player? You'll play Bronze tournaments. You are a platinum player? You'll play platinum tournaments. | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
It would NEED to be third party though, so you could put in a contract style thing that informs people of the risks and says you can't blame losses on anyone but yourself, you are responsible for your own money, has IP restrictions and other such things. Frozen Arbiter, its your idea, get Blizzards permission to run it on TeamLiquid | ||
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Evoke
New Zealand50 Posts
I really like the idea. However, the concern I have is that the game is not turn based - when you disconnect from pokerstars during the tournament, you come back and might still be in the game, having folded a few hands. Whereas each game of SC2 is equivalent to Head-to-Head in poker, you're not playing 9 other people, you're playing one after another until you can beat them. You also don't get a chance to benefit off some chumps in the earlier rounds of the competition by sitting out and watching them go bust because you have to beat whoever you're given. But in saying that, it can just be a normal double elimination or single elimination tournament with an entry fee, with pre-determined disconnect rules that don't require a human review such as "if no losses were encountered by either party, or the dc happens within the first 2 minutes" or whatever.. That could work, but it wouldn't be quite like pokerstars. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On June 18 2010 10:23 Zanez.smarty wrote: Also... Balance: Poker: 52 Cards. Same cards for each player. Randomized. Balanced SC2: Any tiny imbalance wrecks everything. Losses can be blamed on balance issues, easy modes etc etc. Who cares if someone blames a loss on imbalance? People blame losses in poker on luck all the time - same shit. Cheating: Poker: Unhackable. You don't need to send packets of info to other players because things like replays are unnecessary and players don't need to share info. SC2: Hackable. There will always be hacks. Read up on the AbsolutePoker super user scandal. Yes, there'll always be hacks - I don't care, there'll always be people using steroids in sports. Should we stop all sports? On June 18 2010 10:27 Zanez.smarty wrote: BAM instant alienation and regional imbalance, legal issues (people ignoring the countries laws, bypassing the boundaries, etc etc). What alienation? First of all, it has not been established whether this would be considered gambling. Second, I don't think it's blizzards problem if people break the law as long as they don't condone it. On June 18 2010 10:30 SouL)R(MizaR wrote: A great idea. Unfortunatly ballancing this would be a nightmare simply allowing only gold players to enter tournies would not work, as people could purposely create accounts and lose every game placing them into bronze. Then play money tournies and rape them over and over and pocket a nice amount. The best way to this ballance would be to have a new ranking for money tourneies and you are promoted on your win percentage. I already addressed this - if you win a/X amount of bronze tourneys, you get moved up. | ||
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