• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:46
CEST 18:46
KST 01:46
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters9[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism8Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?124Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over3New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!46
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism SC4ALL: II Winner will earn a spot at HSC 30! SC4ALL II: StarCraft 2 Player Announcement 7/8 Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) 2026 GSTL Announcement Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 542 The Ascended Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This
Brood War
General
[D] Brainstorming a balance patch for Brood war Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? Terran or Protoss BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 [ASL22] Ro16 Group B [ASL22] Ro16 Group A BWCL Season 65 Announcement
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation Diablo IV [Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Virtual Romance, Real-Life C…
TrAiDoS
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9577 users

Scouting vs. Random analysis - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
Hold-Lurker
Profile Joined October 2007
United States403 Posts
May 10 2010 01:18 GMT
#41
I totally missed the floor function, sorry! Thanks for explaining.

Does the SCV build time change much?
Oracle
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada411 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-10 01:25:36
May 10 2010 01:21 GMT
#42
Update: Added another table and chart for more examples of the first implication that I found, check it out

it doesn't change anything at all, actually. Well, forgoing mathematical -> reality error. Since all of it was relative to another, it would still say the same. Except it wouldn't be mineral defecit at "100 second mark", but rather the 85th second mark.

Either way, i used the 100 seconds to notate the moment when I have 11 SCVs out. Or, in other words, simply replace that header with "Mineral deficit at 11 supply"
Ballistixz
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1269 Posts
May 10 2010 01:54 GMT
#43
On April 21 2010 05:49 Koltz wrote:
Preamble:

As far as the search goes, there hasn't been a clear answer to this question: when do I scout against random?

I provide here a small analysis which, not necessarily says anything groundbreaking, but shows the implications in terms of mineral advantage when you scout.
Note: for these calculations we assume that the random player scouts after 10

Proof:
+ Show Spoiler +

Scenario: You send one of your first 6 SCVs to scout

Let us assume that for the first 10~ scvs, your mineral income per minute per scv can be represented as this:

g(n) = k*n

where k is an arbitrary value of the average income each scv makes per second. depending on the type of speed you play SC on, it is around 2/3.

Of course, as soon you add in more than 10 scvs, this function needs a piecewise-representation, as the return diminishes the more scvs you have. Furthermore, this function assumes there is a linear relationship of the amount of minerals recieved for the first 10 scvs, which does create a margin of error, but it is not that bad.

Thus, we say that:

[image loading]


Now, when you scout, you are effectively down by one scv, let us define the income of the opponent as

[image loading]


If we assume that both players continuously pump scvs for the first 10 supply, we can say that the number of SCVs with respect to time (in minutes) can be modelled by the function:

[image loading]


That is to say, number of SCVs for the first 100 seconds of the game can be calculated by floor(time / 20).
Because it takes 20 seconds to build an scv. I put a restriction of 100 seconds because in 100 seconds 5 scvs are produced, which brings our total count of SCVs to 11. However, one will be surely sent to build a structure by then, which fulfills our restriction of a maximum of 10 scvs mining the minerals at a time.

which we can substitute:

[image loading]


Now that we have the rate of income at time t of each player, we can integrate and find the total amount of money each player has gotten (from the new scvs), with respect to time

Thus now we can approximate the accumlated minerals gathered (by the new scvs) for the first 100 seconds can be modelled like this for each player.

[image loading]



We can find the advantage of Player 1's total minerals over Player 2's total minerals if player two starts off with 1 less scv (scout) by

[image loading]


If we plot this graph, we can see how big of an advantage, that your opponent has over you, if you sent one of your first 6 SCVs out right away. For these plots we will assume K = 4/6 minerals per second

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Thus if player two sends one of his initial six scvs to scout, by the 100 second mark, player one will have a 200/3 mineral advantage over player one.

This indeed makes sense, seeing as if the opponent has an extra scv over me for 100 seconds, and the scv gains an average of 4/6 minerals a second, he should have 4/6 * 100 minerals over me. This case is proven true.

But now we want to know, what happens if I send the 7th scv instead of the 6th? Or the 8th? Or the 9th?

Then we can model MY income by:

[image loading]


Where x is the time for which I sent my scouting SCV out. If it my 7th SCV, this is 20 seconds into the game. 8th SCV, 40 seconds in. Etc.

This makes sense because my income and my opponents income are exactly the same (note the f(x) part) up until i send my scout out (at time x). Then my mineral income diverges from my opponents, and I have the g(t) function which implies i have 1 less scv thereafter.

This creates the relationship of my total gathered minerals versus the total gathered minerals of my opponent. obviously, the later i send my scout out, the closer my mineral income is to his:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Now for the real stuff; I want to know 100 seconds in, how much each of these options costs me, so I can draw some sort of application.

My opponents final income will always be the best case scenario, lets say f(100) in this case. I want to know how much greater his income will be over me depending on when I send my SCV scout out.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


There you have it; If i send one of my first 6 SCV scouts i will be at a defecit of 200/3 minerals by the 100 second mark. And so on...



Observations:
This creates the table:

[image loading]

From the 100 second point and onwards, my opponent suffers diminishing returns, and thus his advantage will slowly converge to zero.

Note: this is assuming your opponent does NOT send a scout until at least 11 scvs have been produced. (Which is usually the case when you play vs random)


personally, since im terran, scouting at 7 catches two bases before I decide whether or not i want to tech/mass/FE. At a loss of 40 minerals, doesnt seem like a bad idea.

More implications:

Question:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 06:35 puckthecat wrote:
The key with this will be how it affects your gathering enough minerals to make essential early structures and still maintain constant worker production. If you have to delay or cut a worker in order to make a Depot or Barracks, the ultimate costs will be more significant than what's shown above.

Proof:

+ Show Spoiler +
Lets say we don't scout until after 10;

80 seconds in you have made 4 scvs, which brings you to a total of 10. You start with 50 minerals. 4 Scvs also cost 50 minerals each. By the time your 10th scv is out, you have gained f(80) minerals.

Thus, how much minerals you have when your 10th SCV comes out is:

f(80) + 50 - 50*4 = 350/3 = 117


This means, under optimal conditions, as soon as your 10th SCV pops out, you should have 117 minerals ready to spend on the first supply depot. I can spare 17 minerals without losing any efficiency.

So if i decide to scout at 6, when my 10th scv comes out, I will have this many minerals:

b(0,80) + 50 - 4*50 = 190/3 or 64 minerals.
Thus, I am behind by 36 minerals to making my supply depot.

Currently, I have 9 SCVs mining. If my rate of income is g(t) = [(2/3)*t]*9, and g(t) = 36, then t must be 6 seconds.

I will have to wait 6 extra seconds to make my supply depot if i scout on 6.

Similarily, we can continue this for every individual variable for which SCV scout was sent.


This creates the following table:

[image loading]



"wow now i know!"

"and knowing is half the battle!"

"G.I JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOE!"
mrproper
Profile Joined April 2010
Romania93 Posts
May 13 2010 10:00 GMT
#44
Thread title made me think something along the lines: Go see what he might throw at you later vs. Prepare for what he may trow at you based on timings... so you can maybe make counters blindly...
KrevanSerKay
Profile Joined August 2010
2 Posts
August 08 2010 21:29 GMT
#45
Nice post... i actually read it all and i'm pretty sure i understand everything. Well done
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 44m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 334
Trap 31
UpATreeSC 5
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 21449
Shuttle 1844
EffOrt 949
Mini 934
Soulkey 568
Rush 274
Soma 269
Horang2 266
hero 140
Dewaltoss 101
[ Show more ]
firebathero 82
910 55
Mong 25
Sexy 22
Terrorterran 18
sorry 13
scan(afreeca) 6
Dota 2
qojqva4084
420jenkins352
Counter-Strike
byalli1287
pashabiceps1085
x6flipin1031
fl0m770
ScreaM760
Other Games
singsing1565
Liquid`RaSZi1270
FrodaN815
mouzStarbuck455
Beastyqt430
XaKoH 133
ArmadaUGS112
RotterdaM112
KnowMe84
Trikslyr62
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• mYiSmile137
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki23
• FirePhoenix9
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis3475
• TFBlade951
Other Games
• Shiphtur233
Upcoming Events
OSC
5h 44m
Escore
17h 14m
IntoTheTV X SOOP
18h 14m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 17h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
2 days
Spirit vs Mixu
Clem vs TBD
RSL Revival
2 days
Serral vs Rogue
BlizzCon
3 days
IdrA vs MC
Replay Cast
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
GSL
4 days
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-08
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.