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Scouting vs. Random analysis

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Oracle
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada411 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-10 01:19:12
April 20 2010 20:49 GMT
#1
Preamble:

As far as the search goes, there hasn't been a clear answer to this question: when do I scout against random?

I provide here a small analysis which, not necessarily says anything groundbreaking, but shows the implications in terms of mineral advantage when you scout.
Note: for these calculations we assume that the random player scouts after 10

Proof:
+ Show Spoiler +

Scenario: You send one of your first 6 SCVs to scout

Let us assume that for the first 10~ scvs, your mineral income per minute per scv can be represented as this:

g(n) = k*n

where k is an arbitrary value of the average income each scv makes per second. depending on the type of speed you play SC on, it is around 2/3.

Of course, as soon you add in more than 10 scvs, this function needs a piecewise-representation, as the return diminishes the more scvs you have. Furthermore, this function assumes there is a linear relationship of the amount of minerals recieved for the first 10 scvs, which does create a margin of error, but it is not that bad.

Thus, we say that:

[image loading]


Now, when you scout, you are effectively down by one scv, let us define the income of the opponent as

[image loading]


If we assume that both players continuously pump scvs for the first 10 supply, we can say that the number of SCVs with respect to time (in minutes) can be modelled by the function:

[image loading]


That is to say, number of SCVs for the first 100 seconds of the game can be calculated by floor(time / 20).
Because it takes 20 seconds to build an scv. I put a restriction of 100 seconds because in 100 seconds 5 scvs are produced, which brings our total count of SCVs to 11. However, one will be surely sent to build a structure by then, which fulfills our restriction of a maximum of 10 scvs mining the minerals at a time.

which we can substitute:

[image loading]


Now that we have the rate of income at time t of each player, we can integrate and find the total amount of money each player has gotten (from the new scvs), with respect to time

Thus now we can approximate the accumlated minerals gathered (by the new scvs) for the first 100 seconds can be modelled like this for each player.

[image loading]



We can find the advantage of Player 1's total minerals over Player 2's total minerals if player two starts off with 1 less scv (scout) by

[image loading]


If we plot this graph, we can see how big of an advantage, that your opponent has over you, if you sent one of your first 6 SCVs out right away. For these plots we will assume K = 4/6 minerals per second

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Thus if player two sends one of his initial six scvs to scout, by the 100 second mark, player one will have a 200/3 mineral advantage over player one.

This indeed makes sense, seeing as if the opponent has an extra scv over me for 100 seconds, and the scv gains an average of 4/6 minerals a second, he should have 4/6 * 100 minerals over me. This case is proven true.

But now we want to know, what happens if I send the 7th scv instead of the 6th? Or the 8th? Or the 9th?

Then we can model MY income by:

[image loading]


Where x is the time for which I sent my scouting SCV out. If it my 7th SCV, this is 20 seconds into the game. 8th SCV, 40 seconds in. Etc.

This makes sense because my income and my opponents income are exactly the same (note the f(x) part) up until i send my scout out (at time x). Then my mineral income diverges from my opponents, and I have the g(t) function which implies i have 1 less scv thereafter.

This creates the relationship of my total gathered minerals versus the total gathered minerals of my opponent. obviously, the later i send my scout out, the closer my mineral income is to his:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Now for the real stuff; I want to know 100 seconds in, how much each of these options costs me, so I can draw some sort of application.

My opponents final income will always be the best case scenario, lets say f(100) in this case. I want to know how much greater his income will be over me depending on when I send my SCV scout out.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


There you have it; If i send one of my first 6 SCV scouts i will be at a defecit of 200/3 minerals by the 100 second mark. And so on...



Observations:
This creates the table:

[image loading]

From the 100 second point and onwards, my opponent suffers diminishing returns, and thus his advantage will slowly converge to zero.

Note: this is assuming your opponent does NOT send a scout until at least 11 scvs have been produced. (Which is usually the case when you play vs random)


personally, since im terran, scouting at 7 catches two bases before I decide whether or not i want to tech/mass/FE. At a loss of 40 minerals, doesnt seem like a bad idea.

More implications:

Question:
On April 21 2010 06:35 puckthecat wrote:
The key with this will be how it affects your gathering enough minerals to make essential early structures and still maintain constant worker production. If you have to delay or cut a worker in order to make a Depot or Barracks, the ultimate costs will be more significant than what's shown above.

Proof:

+ Show Spoiler +
Lets say we don't scout until after 10;

80 seconds in you have made 4 scvs, which brings you to a total of 10. You start with 50 minerals. 4 Scvs also cost 50 minerals each. By the time your 10th scv is out, you have gained f(80) minerals.

Thus, how much minerals you have when your 10th SCV comes out is:

f(80) + 50 - 50*4 = 350/3 = 117


This means, under optimal conditions, as soon as your 10th SCV pops out, you should have 117 minerals ready to spend on the first supply depot. I can spare 17 minerals without losing any efficiency.

So if i decide to scout at 6, when my 10th scv comes out, I will have this many minerals:

b(0,80) + 50 - 4*50 = 190/3 or 64 minerals.
Thus, I am behind by 36 minerals to making my supply depot.

Currently, I have 9 SCVs mining. If my rate of income is g(t) = [(2/3)*t]*9, and g(t) = 36, then t must be 6 seconds.

I will have to wait 6 extra seconds to make my supply depot if i scout on 6.

Similarily, we can continue this for every individual variable for which SCV scout was sent.


This creates the following table:

[image loading]
nedsat
Profile Joined April 2010
27 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-20 21:03:25
April 20 2010 21:02 GMT
#2
Good reading. You did a fine job sir.
I would have thought you would lose more scouting already at 7-8.
Sentient
Profile Joined April 2010
United States437 Posts
April 20 2010 21:14 GMT
#3
Thank you, this is very useful. I'm always hesitant to send an early scout, but it seems the cost isn't as much as I thought it was.
puckthecat
Profile Joined April 2010
United States18 Posts
April 20 2010 21:35 GMT
#4
The key with this will be how it affects your gathering enough minerals to make essential early structures and still maintain constant worker production. If you have to delay or cut a worker in order to make a Depot or Barracks, the ultimate costs will be more significant than what's shown above.
Clearout
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway1060 Posts
April 20 2010 21:48 GMT
#5
Wow well done
really?
Oracle
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada411 Posts
April 20 2010 21:49 GMT
#6
On April 21 2010 06:35 puckthecat wrote:
The key with this will be how it affects your gathering enough minerals to make essential early structures and still maintain constant worker production. If you have to delay or cut a worker in order to make a Depot or Barracks, the ultimate costs will be more significant than what's shown above.


Very keen observation
Lets say we don't scout until after 10;

80 seconds in you have made 4 scvs, which brings you to a total of 10. You start with 50 minerals. 4 Scvs also cost 50 minerals each. By the time your 10th scv is out, you have gained f(80) minerals.

Thus, how much minerals you have when your 10th SCV comes out is:

f(80) + 50 - 50*4 = 350/3 = 117


This means, under optimal conditions, as soon as your 10th SCV pops out, you should have 117 minerals ready to spend on the first supply depot. I can spare 17 minerals without losing any efficiency.

So if i decide to scout at 6, when my 10th scv comes out, I will have this many minerals:

b(0,80) + 50 - 4*50 = 190/3 or 64 minerals.
I am behind by 36 minerals to making my supply depot. Currently, I have 9 SCVs mining. If my rate of income is g(t) = 2/3*t/9, and g(t) = 36, then t must be 6 seconds.

I will have to wait 6 extra seconds to make my supply depot if i scout on 6.
Stopdroproll
Profile Joined March 2010
United States101 Posts
April 20 2010 22:13 GMT
#7
Very interesting, I've always wondered how early scouting can affect minerals mining.
But at what cost?
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-20 22:18:50
April 20 2010 22:16 GMT
#8
awwwww I LOVE all these math wizards who are figuring all this shit out!

great read! ^__^

this is actually more interesting for scouting against players who's race you know, because then you have more of an emphasis on your economy as you already know what race your opponent is

but for random players you wanna see what you're up against asap even if it means sacking some econ.
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
DrSmoke
Profile Joined April 2010
United States175 Posts
April 20 2010 22:18 GMT
#9
Wow holy math batman!

"The more you know..."
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
April 20 2010 22:19 GMT
#10
Just thought I'd drop in and let you know the thread title reads "Scouting vs. Random anal" in the menu bar. Other then that, I think this information is pretty interesting, I've often found myself scewing up my builds because I forgot what race I was playing against and had to early scout.

Carry on.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Oracle
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada411 Posts
April 20 2010 23:06 GMT
#11
On April 21 2010 07:19 Osmoses wrote:
Just thought I'd drop in and let you know the thread title reads "Scouting vs. Random anal" in the menu bar. Other then that, I think this information is pretty interesting, I've often found myself scewing up my builds because I forgot what race I was playing against and had to early scout.

Carry on.


Lol youre right

If i could edit the threads name I would, its not even named well :x
Been in a rush to move out, just jotted stuff down asap.
Husky
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3362 Posts
April 20 2010 23:08 GMT
#12
I never scout that early against random. Then again I'm really bad.

+ Show Spoiler +
I love random anal
Commentaries: youtube.com/HuskyStarcraft
No_Roo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States905 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-21 00:20:58
April 20 2010 23:39 GMT
#13
Haha, yes this was some tragic thread title truncation, was going to screenshot it on the main page but looks like every one else already noticed it.

Good thread though, nice to see the numbers.


EDIT: Reminds me of a programming class I had to take last year...
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
(US) NoRoo.fighting
junemermaid
Profile Joined September 2006
United States981 Posts
April 20 2010 23:47 GMT
#14
Don't want to be a debbie downer here, but you didn't need integrals and fancy equations to figure this out...

Regardless, cool implications and well done.
the UMP says YER OUT
zomgzergrush
Profile Joined August 2008
United States923 Posts
April 20 2010 23:53 GMT
#15
Nice read, but how does map specifics play into this? 1v1 maps, 4p maps, various scouting path distances, etc?
Bronze skipping straight to Diamond in 40 games retail release. Bnet 2.0 ladder really takes it's sweet time to think about that league placement.
Oracle
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada411 Posts
April 21 2010 00:15 GMT
#16
On April 21 2010 08:47 junemermaid wrote:
Don't want to be a debbie downer here, but you didn't need integrals and fancy equations to figure this out...

Regardless, cool implications and well done.

yeah there would be a couple ways.

the "easiest" would probably be empirical data, but a 30 minute write-up along with half an hour of testing would take much longer than just a 30 minute write-up

another way you can do it is by using differential equations, but thats more advanced than just integration, especially with floor calls

I realize i made it seem very complicated, truth is its just one small integration problem, then using relations between the functions to get what you want. im bad at writeups when im in a hurry.

Don't really know another way i could've made these conclusions without using these methods.

I chose my method because I thought itd be the easiest to express, and this way we get pretty graphs where we can pinpoint things and see relations

not to mention, by using functions its easier (at least for me) to see some of the connections

either way, thanks ^^
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
April 21 2010 00:32 GMT
#17
The word Analaysis has turned to anal in the sidebar countless times lol. @ the OP, while the mineral loss for early scout is small @ 100 seconds, if it delays a key building it will slow down the entire build by that much.
Oracle
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada411 Posts
April 21 2010 23:00 GMT
#18
All done moving...

Anyways, since i dont have the SC2 beta, it would be great if someone could give me some of the following information so i can make more conclusions:

Time it takes to scout each base on a map,
Ie. On lost temple, scouting close would take X time,
scouting second closest would be Y time
Scouting across would be Z time

etc.

I would also like to know for three player and two player maps (if they exist)



Erucious
Profile Joined March 2010
Norway393 Posts
April 21 2010 23:14 GMT
#19
i didnt read it all... But the math in this thread just got me REALLY hard.

<3
I'm Norwegian/Dutch. Just the awesome parts of them though :D
Amazn
Profile Joined March 2010
United States83 Posts
April 21 2010 23:32 GMT
#20
You baneling busted by brain
Let fear be your compass.
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