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On April 07 2010 20:01 Rabiator wrote:
The queen can attack ground and air, the Infestor has no such ability. Why should the queen get an ability which almost seems redundant?
Switching these abilities seems like a wish from lazy Zerg players, who want to reduce their risk of ever falling to Void Ray rushes to zero. Getting another base defense "for free" is too cheap IMO.
Well, first because the ability is rather useless on the infestor except for some low harass potential and marines are so slow and last so short that they are more a defense buff than an attack ability. This seems to fit well to the queen, where in fact Transfusion is hardly used.
Second, Zerg anti air comes as late as tier 2, so they could use a little buff.
And third, it's NOT for free. The queen will need to use energy which means less energy for larvae, which has a similar effect as forcing a terran to scan. This creates a nice energy tension.
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I forsee some ridcilous queen rushes with infested terrans if this change goes in :o
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On April 07 2010 20:20 MiraMax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 20:01 Rabiator wrote:
The queen can attack ground and air, the Infestor has no such ability. Why should the queen get an ability which almost seems redundant?
Switching these abilities seems like a wish from lazy Zerg players, who want to reduce their risk of ever falling to Void Ray rushes to zero. Getting another base defense "for free" is too cheap IMO. Well, first because the ability is rather useless on the infestor except for some low harass potential and marines are so slow and last so short that they are more a defense buff than an attack ability. This seems to fit well to the queen, where in fact Transfusion is hardly used. Second, Zerg anti air comes as late as tier 2, so they could use a little buff. And third, it's NOT for free. The queen will need to use energy which means less energy for larvae, which has a similar effect as forcing a terran to scan. This creates a nice energy tension.
This is just silly. It isn't the same at all. You mean to tell me that missing one inject larva (while being able to have as many queens as you want) costs/risks the same as a Terran rushing banshee?
Not even close. It is definitely an "OH SHIT" button, it isn't remotely similar to scan/MULE. Also, spore colonies can be out at Tier 1. Not that they should when, I say again, MAKE A SECOND QUEEN.
The majority of you are arguing for this based on the alleged SUPER WEAKNESS against air harass early. When there are dozens of games in which a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game.
Giving the queen a spell that completely stops a Terran build is way too noob friendly and that is bullshit.
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2 queen transfusion against fast void rays is actually quite good.. dont want the ability to be moved 
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On April 07 2010 20:57 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 20:20 MiraMax wrote:On April 07 2010 20:01 Rabiator wrote:
The queen can attack ground and air, the Infestor has no such ability. Why should the queen get an ability which almost seems redundant?
Switching these abilities seems like a wish from lazy Zerg players, who want to reduce their risk of ever falling to Void Ray rushes to zero. Getting another base defense "for free" is too cheap IMO. Well, first because the ability is rather useless on the infestor except for some low harass potential and marines are so slow and last so short that they are more a defense buff than an attack ability. This seems to fit well to the queen, where in fact Transfusion is hardly used. Second, Zerg anti air comes as late as tier 2, so they could use a little buff. And third, it's NOT for free. The queen will need to use energy which means less energy for larvae, which has a similar effect as forcing a terran to scan. This creates a nice energy tension. This is just silly. It isn't the same at all. You mean to tell me that missing one inject larva (while being able to have as many queens as you want) costs/risks the same as a Terran rushing banshee? Not even close. It is definitely an "OH SHIT" button, it isn't remotely similar to scan/MULE. Also, spore colonies can be out at Tier 1. Not that they should when, I say again, MAKE A SECOND QUEEN. The majority of you are arguing for this based on the alleged SUPER WEAKNESS against air harass early. When there are dozens of games in which a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game. Giving the queen a spell that completely stops a Terran build is way too noob friendly and that is bullshit.
I don't think it would "completely stop a Terran build", but rather would provide another way of dealing with the one you're referring to. Yes, you can make a second Queen, but they take a long time to build (so, often, if the Terran player has any brains, he can focus down the first Queen before the second one is even halfway done), don't do very much damage and building them will occasionally not let you tech to Lair (which is usually the most effective way of dealing with air harass), if you're still on one hatch.
I like the idea as I think the Transfusion ability is an excellent one anyway, but seems to have very diminishing value as the game continues, for various reasons.
Oh, and I'd love to see some of those games that you are talking about where "a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game".
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I also like the idea. Don't know if you woudl need to make the heal AOE or whatnot, but the very concept seems good both for the mechanics and lore of the game.
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On April 07 2010 21:31 jtype wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 20:57 keV. wrote:On April 07 2010 20:20 MiraMax wrote:On April 07 2010 20:01 Rabiator wrote:
The queen can attack ground and air, the Infestor has no such ability. Why should the queen get an ability which almost seems redundant?
Switching these abilities seems like a wish from lazy Zerg players, who want to reduce their risk of ever falling to Void Ray rushes to zero. Getting another base defense "for free" is too cheap IMO. Well, first because the ability is rather useless on the infestor except for some low harass potential and marines are so slow and last so short that they are more a defense buff than an attack ability. This seems to fit well to the queen, where in fact Transfusion is hardly used. Second, Zerg anti air comes as late as tier 2, so they could use a little buff. And third, it's NOT for free. The queen will need to use energy which means less energy for larvae, which has a similar effect as forcing a terran to scan. This creates a nice energy tension. This is just silly. It isn't the same at all. You mean to tell me that missing one inject larva (while being able to have as many queens as you want) costs/risks the same as a Terran rushing banshee? Not even close. It is definitely an "OH SHIT" button, it isn't remotely similar to scan/MULE. Also, spore colonies can be out at Tier 1. Not that they should when, I say again, MAKE A SECOND QUEEN. The majority of you are arguing for this based on the alleged SUPER WEAKNESS against air harass early. When there are dozens of games in which a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game. Giving the queen a spell that completely stops a Terran build is way too noob friendly and that is bullshit. I don't think it would "completely stop a Terran build", but rather would provide another way of dealing with the one you're referring to. Yes, you can make a second Queen, but they take a long time to build (so, often, if the Terran player has any brains, he can focus down the first Queen before the second one is even halfway done), don't do very much damage and building them will occasionally not let you tech to Lair (which is usually the most effective way of dealing with air harass), if you're still on one hatch. I like the idea as I think the Transfusion ability is an excellent one anyway, but seems to have very diminishing value as the game continues, for various reasons. Oh, and I'd love to see some of those games that you are talking about where "a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game".
How is having sufficient AA (that costs nothing) to deal with an air harass not completely stopping an air harass again?
So you are standing by the idea that:
A) you should be able to have an "oopsie" button and continue your build uninterrupted when the hypothetical terran has basically all-in'd you.
B) x energy is a fair price to pay to stop a cheese build.
Is this correct?
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Why would we want to give the zerg even more anti-air without actually teching to any sort of anti air unit. This would pretty much remove the only reason to not go mass roach.
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would make ultralisk quite useful, I rather see ultra + infestor hydra than roach roach roach. Man, I have to spam marauders so much to kill those dam things.
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On April 07 2010 22:10 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 21:31 jtype wrote:On April 07 2010 20:57 keV. wrote:On April 07 2010 20:20 MiraMax wrote:On April 07 2010 20:01 Rabiator wrote:
The queen can attack ground and air, the Infestor has no such ability. Why should the queen get an ability which almost seems redundant?
Switching these abilities seems like a wish from lazy Zerg players, who want to reduce their risk of ever falling to Void Ray rushes to zero. Getting another base defense "for free" is too cheap IMO. Well, first because the ability is rather useless on the infestor except for some low harass potential and marines are so slow and last so short that they are more a defense buff than an attack ability. This seems to fit well to the queen, where in fact Transfusion is hardly used. Second, Zerg anti air comes as late as tier 2, so they could use a little buff. And third, it's NOT for free. The queen will need to use energy which means less energy for larvae, which has a similar effect as forcing a terran to scan. This creates a nice energy tension. This is just silly. It isn't the same at all. You mean to tell me that missing one inject larva (while being able to have as many queens as you want) costs/risks the same as a Terran rushing banshee? Not even close. It is definitely an "OH SHIT" button, it isn't remotely similar to scan/MULE. Also, spore colonies can be out at Tier 1. Not that they should when, I say again, MAKE A SECOND QUEEN. The majority of you are arguing for this based on the alleged SUPER WEAKNESS against air harass early. When there are dozens of games in which a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game. Giving the queen a spell that completely stops a Terran build is way too noob friendly and that is bullshit. I don't think it would "completely stop a Terran build", but rather would provide another way of dealing with the one you're referring to. Yes, you can make a second Queen, but they take a long time to build (so, often, if the Terran player has any brains, he can focus down the first Queen before the second one is even halfway done), don't do very much damage and building them will occasionally not let you tech to Lair (which is usually the most effective way of dealing with air harass), if you're still on one hatch. I like the idea as I think the Transfusion ability is an excellent one anyway, but seems to have very diminishing value as the game continues, for various reasons. Oh, and I'd love to see some of those games that you are talking about where "a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game". How is having sufficient AA (that costs nothing) to deal with an air harass not completely stopping an air harass again? So you are standing by the idea that: A) you should be able to have an "oopsie" button and continue your build uninterrupted when the hypothetical terran has basically all-in'd you. B) x energy is a fair price to pay to stop a cheese build. Is this correct?
Do you really think that the energy left over in a 'decent' Zerg players' Queen, who has for some reason or another failed to notice that the Terran is doing an "all-in" air attack would be enough to nullify said attack?
Have you ever seen/used/learned anything about infested Terrans?
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Yes, we can make a second queen, but you're missing the bigger picture.
Queen's role is a base defender, and this will further help do her job. For instance, say you fast expanded or teched really early, and want to throw some quick defenders. Or even unsuspected drops and want to buy some time with quick defenders. Zerg cannot wall off and guard with minimal units, and i think infested terrans could really help on this. It is not free. Zerg will have to sacrifice spawn larva timing.
Also, we need other options then making 2nd queen. Queens are 150min and 2 food, and produced slowly at hatch (not from larva). We don't want to make two of them every game just to prepare for an air assault. We can use that 150 min 2 food on something else. The key idea is to buy some time with Summon Infested Terrans, while we build proper AA. If you go all-in with banshees, it will still push through, but at least we can buy some time with a single queen.
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I like this idea. I think Blizzard would have no trouble balancing around this kind of improvement.
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Where is this THIS NEEDS TO BE IMPLEMENTED NOW option in the poll?
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it would be really nice if infestor will get some other spell after this hyperthetical swap, too. because lings used to get a new life after dark swarm research in SC:BW. but sc2 lings are mostly useless in late game.. or not nearly as useful. some sort of aoe heal is nice, but honestly i prefer the old dark swarm.
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Excellent idea, would love this as a Z player. No T1 anti-air just sucks.
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great idea.
maybe make infested terrans a hatch-level upgrade like 50/50 - 60sec. so it would not be used for to much cheese/anti-scout to early...
or make it "spawn broodlings" instead of infested terrans. never was a big fan of spawning infested terrans out of nowhere. would also remove anti-air concerns.
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Infestor / Infested Terran
Queen / Infested Terran
..just doesn't make sense!
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On April 07 2010 20:57 keV. wrote:
This is just silly. It isn't the same at all. You mean to tell me that missing one inject larva (while being able to have as many queens as you want) costs/risks the same as a Terran rushing banshee?
Not even close. It is definitely an "OH SHIT" button, it isn't remotely similar to scan/MULE. Also, spore colonies can be out at Tier 1. Not that they should when, I say again, MAKE A SECOND QUEEN.
The majority of you are arguing for this based on the alleged SUPER WEAKNESS against air harass early. When there are dozens of games in which a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game.
Giving the queen a spell that completely stops a Terran build is way too noob friendly and that is bullshit.
Read what I wrote. I didn't say skipping inject larva once is in any way a similar investment than a Terran rushing banshees. But why should it? Rushing banshees it's typical cheese. It should get punished when it's scouted soon enough.
A second queen would come way to late to counter the cheese unless it's built right away. Do you really want to suggest that two queens would be the new Zerg opener?
And seriously, I think you never encountered infested marines. One marine is 25 energy, so you sacrifice larva inject for each marine you make. If you think that a queen with a single infested terran shuts down banshee harass then you just don't know what you are talking about.
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Awesome idea! Definitely one of the best suggestions I've read. (And I hope blizzard reads too!)
An AoE spell that temporarly increase health regen would be awesome for the infestor. It could be similar in range and cast time of gaurdian shield. (Infestors wouldn't heal themselves or other infestors, and perhaps they would be unable to move while casting?)
In SC:BW, positioning was a huge part of the zerg match-up due to lurkers. They also punished players who lacked detection. If said healing ability worked while the infestor was burrowed, I think that would make for a favorable change in the meta game. Players wouldn't be able to skimp on detection (so they could quickly kill the infestors), and it would make positioning more important for the zerg.
So many people want to bring the lurker back, but banelings already play the role of mass infantry killers. A unit that requires detection and can fortify a postion is the other part of the equation.
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On April 08 2010 03:33 MiraMax wrote:And seriously, I think you never encountered infested marines. One marine is 25 energy, so you sacrifice larva inject for each marine you make. If you think that a queen with a single infested terran shuts down banshee harass then you just don't know what you are talking about.
This, and infested terrans only live for 20 seconds so they'd be a delaying tactic if anything. And having two queens wouldn't make zerg immune to air attacks by any stretch, if anything two queens + four infested terrans would be worse then two queens that can heal each other, Kev you're freaking out over nothing :/ A single queen could defend a little bit better vs properly scouted early air rushes at the significant expense of unit production, and late game queens who've managed to build up some energy would be able to defend a little bit better, that's really about it.
I really like the OPs idea, I don't know if you'd really ever see infested terrans used much anyways but it's definitely a step in the right direction.
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EPT
