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Blizzard should swap Summon Infested Terran ability with Transfusion ability from queen.
By giving queen the Summon Infested Terran ability, it will give zerg a way to deal with early air harass, and it will give a REASON for queen to save up her mana in case the opponent go for some early banshee/void ray cheese.
Give infestor the transfusion ability, but make it a SMALL aoe. This will give zerg to survive from AOE spells a bit longer, such as psi storm and colossus attack.
Thoughts?
[edit] I posted the same thing on bnet forum, and getting a lot of positive feedback. 
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24038450882&sid=5000
[edit2] Created poll as per Archerofaiur's request
Poll: Swap Infested Terran and Transfusion?
(Vote): Good Idea
(Vote): Bad Idea
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Sounds like a pretty good idea, but i know people below me are gona think about it more and find reasons not to do this.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Oh that's pretty genius =o I wonder if you could balance it in such a way that it lets zergs scout eachother, to prevent ZvZ from being a blind matchup?
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Would this be a click and insta cast with an aoe around the infester or would it be click cast then click again to tell where to cast.
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I think this is brilliant. Blizzard has always been about the queen as a 'base defender', and this meshes really well with that as well as giving zerg a (temporary) buffer against an air rush. Balancing it could be tricky.. too powerful and it will cost more energy than queens usually have, or getting a few queens would deter all air harass. Too weak (as it probably is now) and it's useless.
On the other hand, transfusion is a neat ability that is rarely used - queens have low energy, and don't generally make it to the front lines. Transfusion isn't over time, is it? If it became a heal-over-time, multiple Infestors would synergize very well.. neural parasite something, other Infestors use transfusion to help it tank/hold on to the captured unit.
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Very interesting idea. The heal might have to be a heal over time instead of instant for it to be balanced. Another problem is a lack of ability to heal buildings early on which can be an important ability.
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AoE heal is going to make muta harrass around 50 times harder to stop.
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Seems like a pretty cool idea. It sounds like it would help Zerg even more though (AoE heal for investor sounds pretty sick), so it should probably be accompanied by a general Zerg nerf.^^
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On April 07 2010 05:49 L wrote:
AoE heal is going to make muta harrass around 50 times harder to stop.
You could make it ground only.
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Calgary25980 Posts
I am against everyone posting their own sweeping balance changes with nothing but their theoretical ideas to back it up.
Unfortunately, I am also very much in favour of this idea! Sounds like a great swap.
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I gotta say I love this idea. It would make infestors way more viable because you could heal the ones that are going in to mind-control. Also would make having more than one Queen for base defense properly viable. Transfusion if moved to the infestor would need to heal a little more than the queens does and/or cost less energy.
Edit: Good to see you posted this on Bnet too.
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Sounds great. Would rly love to see that
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On April 07 2010 05:49 L wrote:
AoE heal is going to make muta harrass around 50 times harder to stop.
Fast muta harras + infestors would need TON, and I mean TON of gas. Wouldnt be really viable.
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I thought queens used to spawn infested terrans in one of the old battle reports. Maybe they tested it out there before and didn't like it and just gave the queen an air attack.... or maybe my memory is just tricking me... I'll go watch then brb.
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I would actually like them to bring back the old alpha queen ability to turn any zerg building temporarily into a static defense structure, since the idea of spawning infested terrans still irks me.
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On April 07 2010 05:56 wesleyq wrote:
I thought queens used to spawn infested terrans in one of the old battle reports. Maybe they tested it out there before and didn't like it and just gave the queen an air attack.... or maybe my memory is just tricking me... I'll go watch then brb.
It was from Battle Report 2 and it was an infestor.
I'm in favor of this idea, I think it improves both the queen and the infestor. With both abilities properly balanced I think it would be a good change. The trick now is convinving Blizzard of this. I'd say the next step is flesh it out a bit more and then make a feedback/suggestion thread over and the blizzard beta forums.
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On April 07 2010 05:51 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 05:49 L wrote:
AoE heal is going to make muta harrass around 50 times harder to stop. You could make it ground only.
Or you could cap the amount of units healed. AoE in whatever area and capped at X amount of units.
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infested terrans would suck as air defense.
he'd just back out when he saw them, or go somewhere else cause they are slow.. come back when you have zero energy.
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On April 07 2010 06:04 Antpile wrote:
infested terrans would suck as air defense.
he'd just back out when he saw them, or go somewhere else cause they are slow.. come back when you have zero energy.
Which might buy you enough time for hydras and make builds like fast void ray less 'auto-loss or auto-win'.
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Sounds like a very sensible change.
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Imagine the early game rushes you can make with infested terrans...
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Actually, this is a GREAT idea considering how it makes sense with lore, and it also makes it so zerg really have to choose between macro and defense with their queens energy.
Amazing idea, 100% support here.
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I like the idea except it doesn't address the issue of 'Spawn Infested Terran' being completely stupid. It should spawn some other unit instead
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i personally think its a pretty great idea, but if the heal was AoE, it couldnt be auto casted or instant casted and/or it would have to cost a bit more energy. if it wasnt AOE, tho, i could understand an autocast with a cooldown and/or hightened energy costs. it seems logical to me. great post
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On April 07 2010 06:04 Antpile wrote:
infested terrans would suck as air defense.
he'd just back out when he saw them, or go somewhere else cause they are slow.. come back when you have zero energy.
because of their weak mobility and the fact they would be on queens they could always buff the duration time to something a bit more reasonable.
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Transfusion should become an AoE HoT; its mechanic would be the exact same as Fungal Growth; you cast it on a group of your own units and it heals them over time. This would Balance out psi storm and give the Zerg an alternative to just spamming Fungal Growth.
On the other hand, it would further improve the role of the queen as a base defender. You would have a choice of macro or defense. Not to mention it could buy you enough time to get those spore colonies or hydras up.
I like this idea very much. As it stands now, both of these abilities are rather useless as they're overshadowed by the other spells.
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A way to perhaps still leave ZvZ scouting possible would be to make infested marines only attack by target firing. This gives you the possibility of sneaking in if the Zerg isn't paying attention/ or has the APM to spare. It still allows you to deal with air harass, just not as effectively as other units would.
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On April 07 2010 06:06 Klockan3 wrote:
Imagine the early game rushes you can make with infested terrans...
queen off creep moves slow as hell that be one hell of a rush 5 mins later once your queen reaches their base.
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Those Infested Terrans would have to provide the same amount of hitpoints as transfusion with 2 queens yields. And the Infested Terrans would have to spawn almost imediately or else those banshees will just snipe them before they can even attack. And even then the DPS should be higher than that of a queen because once a single Infested Terran dies the DPS will be lowered, while a pair of queens with Transfusion will keep up the full damage for quite a while.
I'm all for removing the Spawn Infested Terran spell from the Infestor, the sooner the better! But I am just starting to like my Queens with Transfusion (awesome meatshields against Marauders/Immortals!), so I would be sad if it was replaced with some crappy Infested Terrans. No matter where you put it, this spell will always be ugly.
And in case some of you hate roach v roach: AoE healing on the Infestor will most likely make that even more powerful. 60 lings vs 10 roaches 1 Infestor in the middle? No problem, just heal back up before the first roach falls. He added mutas? Who cares, fungal + heal hydras (or rather the roaches around the hydras).
Eh so my conclusion: Remove from Infestor: Yay. Rest: Nay.
It's not like this whole concept of healing your units instead of sending them into death is very "zergish" anyways.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 07 2010 06:06 Klockan3 wrote:
Imagine the early game rushes you can make with infested terrans...
Eh, if you spend all your energy on infested terrans, you won't have any extra larvae 
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On April 07 2010 06:20 spinesheath wrote:
And in case some of you hate roach v roach: AoE healing on the Infestor will most likely make that even more powerful. 60 lings vs 10 roaches 1 Infestor in the middle? No problem, just heal back up before the first roach falls. He added mutas? Who cares, fungal + heal hydras (or rather the roaches around the hydras).
Yeah, but the example you're trying to use to prove your point is assuming your opponents are not using the infestor. The infestor would become a unit that's a priority to focus fire in addition to being a necessity in your unit mix; this, accompanied with constant Fungal Growth and transfusion micro, would create some very intense and dynamic game play.
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i like this idea, as both spells on their current units are almost 100% useless. and swapping them would make them very viable
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You could change the amount of energy needed for it. Such as a fourth of the energy to make one. So you could make like 4, which might be useful in a rush. Or you could have it use up all the energy and spawn a couple of them.
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The healing ability could even be a channeled spell, much like to Healing Spray ability from Warcraft 3 Alchemist hero (http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutral/goblinalchemist.shtml). It could even heal enemies so that you can't just spray it on charging speedlings.
Whether it be behind the friendly troops casting healing, or at the front lines casting fungal/mind control, the infestors will remain the first target to kill.
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zerg is already fine in mid game with hydras and roachs. now you are talking about AOE healing? if it wont be enough maybe you want zerglings with storm, overlords with nuke.
not a good idea. zerg will out macro toss and terran with such an ability.
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On April 07 2010 06:30 huun wrote:
zerg is already fine in mid game with hydras and roachs. now you are talking about AOE healing? if it wont be enough maybe you want zerglings with storm, overlords with nuke.
not a good idea. zerg will out macro toss and terran with such an ability.
But the zerg midgame is so boring, this thread is an attempt to remedy how boring Zerg is =[
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On April 07 2010 06:24 FREEloss_ca wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 06:20 spinesheath wrote:
And in case some of you hate roach v roach: AoE healing on the Infestor will most likely make that even more powerful. 60 lings vs 10 roaches 1 Infestor in the middle? No problem, just heal back up before the first roach falls. He added mutas? Who cares, fungal + heal hydras (or rather the roaches around the hydras). Yeah, but the example you're trying to use to prove your point is assuming your opponents are not using the infestor. The infestor would become a unit that's a priority to focus fire in addition to being a necessity in your unit mix; this, accompanied with constant Fungal Growth and transfusion micro, would create some very intense and dynamic game play.
You can't focus fire an Infestor in the middle of a Roach ball when you are using a zergling-based army. Mutas can get fungal'd and die immediately, so trying to snipe them with Mutas probably isn't the best idea either. This AoE heal seems to favor roach/hydra over all other midgame zerg unit combinations imo.
On April 07 2010 06:24 Disarray wrote:
i like this idea, as both spells on their current units are almost 100% useless. and swapping them would make them very viable
Transfusion is not useless at all. It helps against early harrass and strong midgame pushes. It also goes well with Broodlords which happen to be so slow that queens can easily follow them.
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Overall I like this idea. I think if you give the infested terran ability an additional ten seconds towards duration and ten extra health, then it could be very viable for emergency defense.
I think transfusion would work well if you made it a short range, small AoE cast of 50 health for 75 energy for ground units only. This would give the infestor a relatively powerful heal, but it would make the infestor more vulnerable to attack.
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This is genius... Such a simple swap, but it makes a lot of sense.
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This idea is so good I am jealous I didn't think of it.
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On April 07 2010 06:33 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 06:30 huun wrote:
zerg is already fine in mid game with hydras and roachs. now you are talking about AOE healing? if it wont be enough maybe you want zerglings with storm, overlords with nuke.
not a good idea. zerg will out macro toss and terran with such an ability. But the zerg midgame is so boring, this thread is an attempt to remedy how boring Zerg is =[
Aren't most ZvZ games based on who can mass the most roaches/hydras? Because if that's so, then yeah it does sound boring!
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
That's uhh... ...
Wow that's a good idea...
Haha yeah that is a really good idea! :O
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Russian Federation124 Posts
Brilliant if balanced could be viable change
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I don't like infested terran ability, but THE IDEA HAS MERIT!
I'd prefer a non-aoe healing though. Would make Ultras more viable.
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I'm totally against AoE heals, this isn't wc3.
Medics autoheal, queens manual target heal, and SCV auto repair are one thing. (I think scv auto repair should be removed tbh, as the game develops it may become more imba in specific strats.)
But anyways, I don't really like the idea of this swap either. Both Spells are not really used, and there are other better spells to be casting anyways. It won't change this.
As far as the queen, The transfusion ability just plain sucks anyways. It only heals 175? hp and has almost zero applicable use besides if your macro is bad and you want to waste .3 seconds before your hatchery dies anyways. I've seriously tried to use this spell as often as possible and I either find that my queen dies first, doesn't have mana to cast it, or casting it doesn't save anything or change the outcome of a battle/drop.
I've not really messed with infested terrans, because they are not very good. They are slow, do weak damage, and die fast. I'd rather fungal in almost every case.
At blizzcon I remember queen had the ability to cast infested men at one point, and she also had some kind of swarm cloud (think beetle Ult in TFT). There must have been a good reason why these were taken out, and I'm assuming it made the queen too strong and hero like.
So anyways, these changes will really only effect the queen (because no one is gonna heal instead over fungal/parasite imho). And there are only 2 times where you would want infesteds. 1, if you FE'd or teched really early and want to throw down some quick defender(s). Which would barely do much (I'd still rather spawn larva and get 8 more lings in 30 seconds instead of 1 weak marine now). The other being, if a terran or protoss decides to air rush and catches you without any AA. The way it is now, a banshee or void will kill a queen 1v1, and the infested will mess with that tactic. I don't think that is a good thing.
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Wow...amazing...pretty much good thoughts about this throughout...
I also agree with this =D
Anything to make air weaker...
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Need to change manacost for infested terran, it would be kinda useless to spawn 1/2 infested terran.
But that idea is brillant.
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On April 07 2010 05:37 bendez wrote:Blizzard should swap Summon Infested Terran ability with Transfusion ability from queen. By giving queen the Summon Infested Terran ability, it will give zerg a way to deal with early air harass, and it will give a REASON for queen to save up her mana in case the opponent go for some early banshee/void ray cheese. Give infestor the transfusion ability, but make it a SMALL aoe. This will give zerg to survive from AOE spells a bit longer, such as psi storm and colossus attack. Thoughts? [edit] I posted the same thing on bnet forum, and getting a lot of positive feedback. http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24038450882&sid=5000
Wow that really is an awesome idea! I like it a lot! someone forward this to blizzard!
Edit - I think that the tranfusion should only heal 1 unit not an AOE. Other than that I still think this is an awesome idea. Someone get this out to blizzard!
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If this were ever implemented, I can easily see myself getting 3-4 queens on 2 bases. =P
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Poll: Swap Infested Terran and Transfusion?
(Vote): Good Idea
(Vote): Bad Idea
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I like it...alot!
A thought on the heal itself is maybe make it so that it is aoe and heal over time in the shape of some alternate colored creep or something such. Creep that can be destroyed by enemy units though. The creep sits in one place and when units stand on it they heal, when they are off it they stop healing. This way you have to make the decision between placing the healing creep so it doesnt get destroyed by the enemy(far enough back) or put it close to the front lines to get the heal quick but risk it getting destroyed and be of no effect(would make units with splash dmg more important as well).
The infested terran makes sense in the way that the queen already spawns zergling size stuff out her backside(creep tumor). So why not a unit of similar size. And for those who don't like the infested terran lore wise or for any other reason that is somewhat linked to it not being realistic or something such...well the driver of the Thor has one of it's quote being "Click me!".
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On April 07 2010 06:04 Antpile wrote:
infested terrans would suck as air defense.
he'd just back out when he saw them, or go somewhere else cause they are slow.. come back when you have zero energy.
^
Just buff infested terrans with like double duration or something and make it researched.
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It is a sensible idea, but I hate infested terran no matter what unit spawns it. However you will probably have to make transfusion cheaper or more effective because infestors are pretty expensive.
While it is good for game balance, it may be a little out of theme for the infestor to be able to heal and the queen to be able to spawn infested units.
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On April 07 2010 06:04 Antpile wrote:
infested terrans would suck as air defense.
he'd just back out when he saw them, or go somewhere else cause they are slow.. come back when you have zero energy.
If you chased them away, mission accomplished!
The key idea is to buy you some valuable time while you build anti-air or spores, not stop the air harass just with infested marines.
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Great idea, on many levels (even, miraculously, lore - Queens infested command centers in the first place!). One cool way I can think of to balance it is if the infestor's transfusion ability worked the same way as fungal growth, in that it locked the units it was healing in place (for the duration of the heal). This could be a powerful balancing mechanic, allowing the heal to be pretty strong and/or large and/or quick without making the units unbeatable (can always run away, or AoE to counter-act). In a way, this would also carry on the caster spirit of the defiler and dark swarm, having the same general effect on gameplay (splash/focus/snipe or runaway or both).
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Provided this were to happen. Infestor's name should be changed to Corruptor,and Corruptor's name should be changed to Infestor.
Also OP should quote poll in opening paragraph so more people can vote.
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wow that sounds like a great idea.
edit - woops
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I'll jump the bandwagon:
This is an amazing idea! This alone would make Zerg midgame much more interesting.
The spawned unit could be an infested terran but I think it's pretty important that it last quite a bit longer and move at a decent speed on creep (like queen maybe) while being really slow outside of creep (to avoid abusive offensive usage from the fact that it lasts longer). Or, alternatively, it could be an always unburrowed building (on a timer), which would mean that it takes damage when not on creep (unlike crawlers, which only slow down).
The fact is: void ray+phoenix terror are just too nasty for a zerg, and spore crawlers definitely aren't helpful with their pathetic range.
I think this would also be really useful later in the game. I'm an average player (=plat) and when I'm up to 3 or 4 bases my macro gets sloppy so my 4 queen's energy starts piling up. This would be a great way to use that excess energy, even offensively, if I bothered expanding creep into the middle of the map with tumors and/or overlords.
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I like this idea, helps balance fungal growth with something else, sort of like plague and dark swarm in broodwar, without being too similar.
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I think reducing mana cost or increasing the infested terran spawned would be a good idea to make it more usable. I think something like:
Infested terran ability should cost 50 energy, spawns 5 infested terran eggs with a short spawn time but has to be used on a hatchery (or higher) just like spawn larvae.
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On April 07 2010 07:43 Archerofaiur wrote:
Provided this were to happen. Infestor's name should be changed to Corruptor,and Corruptor's name should be changed to Infestor.
Also OP should quote poll in opening paragraph so more people can vote.
Done
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Good change, they should make infested terrans last longer. That's the reason i never seem to use them :S
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The Infested Terrans got to be cheap though in energy, and need to last longer. Otherwise the idea of having them as Anti-Air is useless.
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This is one of the most genius radical game changing ideas I have ever heard since the beta came out.
And it's not stupid as hell.
To everyone saying that it's a tard anti air, I'm pretty sure the OP doesn't mean AA reasonably anywhere later in the game, just early on to defend those quick air rushes (banshee/voidray) that end the game so damn early often times. The queen vs any of those early units is reasonably close to begin with, so not a whole lot more is needed to tip the balance. Beyond that timing, zerg will have the proper AA ready. One less stupid rush to worry about opens the game length to something longer and more interesting.
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Really a great idea. I am sure there would be balance issues at first but I don't imagine it would be too hard to fix with some tweaking.
What is great is that transfusion on infestors is more of a buff to Ultras than anything else, since they are one of the only zerg units that really has enough hp to justify its use(and you never have your queens with your army), and Ultras just don't get enough use (because they are awesome!)
Spawn infested terran as well is an ability that is only useful early game, when you have a queen and not infestors.
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overall i like the idea but i still think infested terrans are stupid.
personaly i like the whole creep tumor stuff about the queen much more so why not just get rid of infested terrans and give the queen an ability to spawn some kind of tiny spine/sporecrawler on creep? their duration should be limited and all other stats should be balanced about some kind of weak/cheap early defense which cost quit a bit of energy (50 sounds right) so you have to make the decision between pumping larva or defending.
beside that the idea of granting infestors the transfusion ability with a smal AOE range is brilliant.
this would make it again an support casting unit which can do more than cast one fungual growth and than die -.-
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only if toss gets a boost next patch... then this will get my stamp of approval
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I have no qualms with the queen getting the infested Terran ability, but why should Zerg get an offensive AoE heal when they already heal by default? If the only reason is survivability from AoE damage just retreat your units for a few seconds or a minute. We all know units in the game in general blob extremely easy so an AoE heal is just ridiculous.
Sidetrack: I'm not sure of this, but do Zerg units heal faster on creep, too (aside from moving faster)?
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This would make 1 banshee not enough to seriously threaten zerg. As it stands, 1 banshee > 1 queen and I think that makes sense given their cost and how much T has to sacrifice to fast tech to banshees. What is the motivation behind this change? More fun or because it's fixing something? I'm all for this change if the queen's air attack is removed.
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I approve of this idea!
I was already sold on the idea when I thought it was only about moving Transfusion to the Infestor. Transfusion and Ultras, let the micro fanatics go crazy.
Moving Infested Terran to the Queen makes it even better. Void Ray sometimes seems too much "I win" (Maybe only on my non-beta playing paper). If you haven't scouted Toss you need to make units to stop some 2 gate rush. But at the same time you need to tech to lair ASAP.
Has someone suggested this on the Beta forums yet?
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
this is the first time ive read a post like this on tl.net in the sc2 forum...EVER (this means years) which is a good idea.
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It sounds like it could be fun to do, but psi storm is already extremely weak as is, wouldnt this completely kill any reason to make templar?
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On April 07 2010 16:56 TheAntZ wrote:
It sounds like it could be fun to do, but psi storm is already extremely weak as is, wouldnt this completely kill any reason to make templar?
I think Blizzard should balance Psi Storm so that a Zerg who doesn't dodge then transfusion gets punished. (and a Terran who carelessly stims gets punished)
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Wow. Really cool idea. They'd also do wonders vs immortals/marauders as well as air. I can't believe nobody thought of this one earlier, but it's a fantastic idea.
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On April 07 2010 16:50 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
This would make 1 banshee not enough to seriously threaten zerg. As it stands, 1 banshee > 1 queen and I think that makes sense given their cost and how much T has to sacrifice to fast tech to banshees. What is the motivation behind this change? More fun or because it's fixing something? I'm all for this change if the queen's air attack is removed.
shouldn't 1 banshee > 1 queen 1 infested terran ?
making 2 infested would already use up 50 energy which is pretty significant, is it not?
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I got an idea, lets build a 2nd queen at our expansion, then when we mass roach and speedling for 2 minutes, lets all out a base with mass infested terrans also!
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Wow, I actually really like this idea. The biggest problem with having transfusion on queens, imo is that they usually wont' be seen on the frontlines. This means that their transfusion ability will only be used defensively. But with it swapped to the infestor it will see much more use I think.
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full support of this idea. it's great.
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On April 07 2010 06:16 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 06:04 Antpile wrote:
infested terrans would suck as air defense.
he'd just back out when he saw them, or go somewhere else cause they are slow.. come back when you have zero energy. because of their weak mobility and the fact they would be on queens they could always buff the duration time to something a bit more reasonable.
The queens energy is not worth more than the infesters, it is worth a ton less...
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The Transfusion could be a toggled spell, similarly to Ghost's Cloak. When toggled, Infestor would heal all the nearby units (not that great of a range maybe) gradually over time while losing energy. This would require more micro as Infestors' positioning would become pivotal.
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I also like the idea (even though I still don't get why it has to be Marines...) and while we are at it: couldn't we also move Neural Parasite to the Overseer and develop it to a tier 3 caster. I just think the ability fits much better with the unit concept of a "flying overseer" and Zerg could use a second caster (Queen not counted since it's more similar to a Macro Mechanic a la OrbC).
Instead the Infestor could get a weak but situationally useful first spell, like a devour ability of one food biological. Zerg might even become fun again.
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On April 07 2010 06:46 CharlieMurphy wrote:
The other being, if a terran or protoss decides to air rush and catches you without any AA. The way it is now, a banshee or void will kill a queen 1v1, and the infested will mess with that tactic. I don't think that is a good thing.
This is something very important to consider. You don't want to mess up some viable tactics already implemented in the game. With that said, this is still beta, and its worth giving it a shot. But, unfortunately once Blizzard patches, you usually don't see a reverse patch, at least not one that I am aware of. (Look at the mother ship being nerffed to worthlessness, even though it is a hero unit in the world of Starcraft, I digress.)
This idea is definitely not far-fetched. Concerning AoE heal I dunno if I'm on board with that one. But its definitely a step in the right direction. Maybe a patch giving (I mean buffing) archon's splash and damage along side with a siege tank buff will help balance it along those lines. Who knows what abusive strats will unfold though. Only time will tell.
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On April 07 2010 17:54 MiraMax wrote:
... and while we are at it: couldn't we also move Neural Parasite to the Overseer and develop it to a tier 3 caster. I just think the ability fits much better with the unit concept of a "flying overseer" and Zerg could use a second caster (Queen not counted since it's more similar to a Macro Mechanic a la OrbC).
Instead the Infestor could get a weak but situationally useful first spell, like a devour ability of one food biological. Zerg might even become fun again.
Seconded. Zerg really needs another true combat caster unit, preferably of tier 3. This is slightly off-topic, but what about making Overseer's Detection a channeled spell that costs energy? This would create energy tension between NP and Detection (and Changeling), more micro (the player would have to toggle the detection on/off depending on the situation and more variety in the detection mechanics between the races. The opponent also faces a question: does that Overseer have its Detection on, does he see my observer, did he scout my DTs?
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On April 07 2010 18:24 Tintti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 17:54 MiraMax wrote:
... and while we are at it: couldn't we also move Neural Parasite to the Overseer and develop it to a tier 3 caster. I just think the ability fits much better with the unit concept of a "flying overseer" and Zerg could use a second caster (Queen not counted since it's more similar to a Macro Mechanic a la OrbC).
Instead the Infestor could get a weak but situationally useful first spell, like a devour ability of one food biological. Zerg might even become fun again. Seconded. Zerg really needs another true combat caster unit, preferably of tier 3. This is slightly off-topic, but what about making Overseer's Detection a channeled spell that costs energy? This would create energy tension between NP and Detection (and Changeling), more micro (the player would have to toggle the detection on/off depending on the situation and more variety in the detection mechanics between the races. The opponent also faces a question: does that Overseer have its Detection on, does he see my observer, did he scout my DTs?
Not that I disagree with you, but let's try to stick to the topic
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very interesting and plausible idea. Appeals to both balance and nostalgia. I like!
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By giving queen the Summon Infested Terran ability, it will give zerg a way to deal with early air harass, and it will give a REASON for queen to save up her mana in case the opponent go for some early banshee/void ray cheese.
Why not just make additional queens?
Give infestor the transfusion ability, but make it a SMALL aoe. This will give zerg to survive from AOE spells a bit longer, such as psi storm and colossus attack.
Thoughts?
Why on earth would the race with the best production need AOE heals. Lore wise AND balance wise I hate this idea.
The idea of fungal AND an AOE heal is just ridiculous.
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could defil... sry.. infestors get the munching ability back?
(and also allow it to munch changelings...?)
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Love the idea. I don't normally comment on changes such as this, but it makes complete sense. Would really help bridge the gap for anti air early in the game. Even if they only lasted 20-30 seconds. So many times (even if I fast tech to lair) I just need under a minute to get a little air defense out.
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On April 07 2010 19:17 Blackjackbob wrote:
Love the idea. I don't normally comment on changes such as this, but it makes complete sense. Would really help bridge the gap for anti air early in the game. Even if they only lasted 20-30 seconds. So many times (even if I fast tech to lair) I just need under a minute to get a little air defense out.
Why should Zergs get a free pass on getting cheesed a certain way again?
It has to cost you something... 25 energy doesn't count.
Cheese is supposed to be dealt with by good scouting or precautions, not an "OH SHIT" button. Just my opinion.
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On April 07 2010 17:53 Tintti wrote:
The Transfusion could be a toggled spell, similarly to Ghost's Cloak. When toggled, Infestor would heal all the nearby units (not that great of a range maybe) gradually over time while losing energy. This would require more micro as Infestors' positioning would become pivotal.
This is really original...
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Give infestor the transfusion ability, but make it a SMALL aoe. This will give zerg to survive from AOE spells a bit longer, such as psi storm and colossus attack.
i think this is ridiculous. psi storm radius has already been reduced, so there is absolutely no need to help Z against storms anymore. dont be fooled by the still overly large storm animation, it really is a lot smaller.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On April 07 2010 19:24 keV. wrote:
Cheese is supposed to be dealt with by good scouting or precautions, not an "OH SHIT" button. Just my opinion.
How the hell do you scout Banshees or Void Rays if they can just wall-in/block off ramp? Suicide slow overlords one by one?
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On April 07 2010 19:38 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 19:24 keV. wrote:
Cheese is supposed to be dealt with by good scouting or precautions, not an "OH SHIT" button. Just my opinion. How the hell do you scout Banshees or Void Rays if they can just wall-in/block off ramp? Suicide slow overlords one by one?
On April 07 2010 19:24 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 19:17 Blackjackbob wrote:
Love the idea. I don't normally comment on changes such as this, but it makes complete sense. Would really help bridge the gap for anti air early in the game. Even if they only lasted 20-30 seconds. So many times (even if I fast tech to lair) I just need under a minute to get a little air defense out. Why should Zergs get a free pass on getting cheesed a certain way again? It has to cost you something... 25 energy doesn't count. Cheese is supposed to be dealt with by good scouting or precautions, not an "OH SHIT" button. Just my opinion.
On April 07 2010 19:03 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +
By giving queen the Summon Infested Terran ability, it will give zerg a way to deal with early air harass, and it will give a REASON for queen to save up her mana in case the opponent go for some early banshee/void ray cheese.
Why not just make additional queens?
For the record, I agree zerg are a bit boring and could use some reworking in certain areas. Just remember that reworking =/= buffing. This is turning into a "fix zerg weaknesses" (when they are already quite strong.) Rather then an interesting mechanic change.
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i dont have a problem with the air rushes. fast lair with den is easy to do without sacraficing your army.
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I quite like your idea. I especially think, since we're in beta, blizzard should try swapping spells just like in the SCbeta if it prooves interessting keep it if not revert.
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The queen can attack ground and air, the Infestor has no such ability. Why should the queen get an ability which almost seems redundant?
Switching these abilities seems like a wish from lazy Zerg players, who want to reduce their risk of ever falling to Void Ray rushes to zero. Getting another base defense "for free" is too cheap IMO.
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I disagree that Zerg actually need help to fend off any harasses apart from really early game. They already have a queen thats air/ground.. faster units on creep, overlords everywhere, creep everywhere and crawlers.
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On April 07 2010 20:01 Rabiator wrote:
The queen can attack ground and air, the Infestor has no such ability. Why should the queen get an ability which almost seems redundant?
Switching these abilities seems like a wish from lazy Zerg players, who want to reduce their risk of ever falling to Void Ray rushes to zero. Getting another base defense "for free" is too cheap IMO.
Well, first because the ability is rather useless on the infestor except for some low harass potential and marines are so slow and last so short that they are more a defense buff than an attack ability. This seems to fit well to the queen, where in fact Transfusion is hardly used.
Second, Zerg anti air comes as late as tier 2, so they could use a little buff.
And third, it's NOT for free. The queen will need to use energy which means less energy for larvae, which has a similar effect as forcing a terran to scan. This creates a nice energy tension.
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I forsee some ridcilous queen rushes with infested terrans if this change goes in :o
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On April 07 2010 20:20 MiraMax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 20:01 Rabiator wrote:
The queen can attack ground and air, the Infestor has no such ability. Why should the queen get an ability which almost seems redundant?
Switching these abilities seems like a wish from lazy Zerg players, who want to reduce their risk of ever falling to Void Ray rushes to zero. Getting another base defense "for free" is too cheap IMO. Well, first because the ability is rather useless on the infestor except for some low harass potential and marines are so slow and last so short that they are more a defense buff than an attack ability. This seems to fit well to the queen, where in fact Transfusion is hardly used. Second, Zerg anti air comes as late as tier 2, so they could use a little buff. And third, it's NOT for free. The queen will need to use energy which means less energy for larvae, which has a similar effect as forcing a terran to scan. This creates a nice energy tension.
This is just silly. It isn't the same at all. You mean to tell me that missing one inject larva (while being able to have as many queens as you want) costs/risks the same as a Terran rushing banshee?
Not even close. It is definitely an "OH SHIT" button, it isn't remotely similar to scan/MULE. Also, spore colonies can be out at Tier 1. Not that they should when, I say again, MAKE A SECOND QUEEN.
The majority of you are arguing for this based on the alleged SUPER WEAKNESS against air harass early. When there are dozens of games in which a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game.
Giving the queen a spell that completely stops a Terran build is way too noob friendly and that is bullshit.
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2 queen transfusion against fast void rays is actually quite good.. dont want the ability to be moved 
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On April 07 2010 20:57 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 20:20 MiraMax wrote:On April 07 2010 20:01 Rabiator wrote:
The queen can attack ground and air, the Infestor has no such ability. Why should the queen get an ability which almost seems redundant?
Switching these abilities seems like a wish from lazy Zerg players, who want to reduce their risk of ever falling to Void Ray rushes to zero. Getting another base defense "for free" is too cheap IMO. Well, first because the ability is rather useless on the infestor except for some low harass potential and marines are so slow and last so short that they are more a defense buff than an attack ability. This seems to fit well to the queen, where in fact Transfusion is hardly used. Second, Zerg anti air comes as late as tier 2, so they could use a little buff. And third, it's NOT for free. The queen will need to use energy which means less energy for larvae, which has a similar effect as forcing a terran to scan. This creates a nice energy tension. This is just silly. It isn't the same at all. You mean to tell me that missing one inject larva (while being able to have as many queens as you want) costs/risks the same as a Terran rushing banshee? Not even close. It is definitely an "OH SHIT" button, it isn't remotely similar to scan/MULE. Also, spore colonies can be out at Tier 1. Not that they should when, I say again, MAKE A SECOND QUEEN. The majority of you are arguing for this based on the alleged SUPER WEAKNESS against air harass early. When there are dozens of games in which a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game. Giving the queen a spell that completely stops a Terran build is way too noob friendly and that is bullshit.
I don't think it would "completely stop a Terran build", but rather would provide another way of dealing with the one you're referring to. Yes, you can make a second Queen, but they take a long time to build (so, often, if the Terran player has any brains, he can focus down the first Queen before the second one is even halfway done), don't do very much damage and building them will occasionally not let you tech to Lair (which is usually the most effective way of dealing with air harass), if you're still on one hatch.
I like the idea as I think the Transfusion ability is an excellent one anyway, but seems to have very diminishing value as the game continues, for various reasons.
Oh, and I'd love to see some of those games that you are talking about where "a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game".
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I also like the idea. Don't know if you woudl need to make the heal AOE or whatnot, but the very concept seems good both for the mechanics and lore of the game.
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On April 07 2010 21:31 jtype wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 20:57 keV. wrote:On April 07 2010 20:20 MiraMax wrote:On April 07 2010 20:01 Rabiator wrote:
The queen can attack ground and air, the Infestor has no such ability. Why should the queen get an ability which almost seems redundant?
Switching these abilities seems like a wish from lazy Zerg players, who want to reduce their risk of ever falling to Void Ray rushes to zero. Getting another base defense "for free" is too cheap IMO. Well, first because the ability is rather useless on the infestor except for some low harass potential and marines are so slow and last so short that they are more a defense buff than an attack ability. This seems to fit well to the queen, where in fact Transfusion is hardly used. Second, Zerg anti air comes as late as tier 2, so they could use a little buff. And third, it's NOT for free. The queen will need to use energy which means less energy for larvae, which has a similar effect as forcing a terran to scan. This creates a nice energy tension. This is just silly. It isn't the same at all. You mean to tell me that missing one inject larva (while being able to have as many queens as you want) costs/risks the same as a Terran rushing banshee? Not even close. It is definitely an "OH SHIT" button, it isn't remotely similar to scan/MULE. Also, spore colonies can be out at Tier 1. Not that they should when, I say again, MAKE A SECOND QUEEN. The majority of you are arguing for this based on the alleged SUPER WEAKNESS against air harass early. When there are dozens of games in which a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game. Giving the queen a spell that completely stops a Terran build is way too noob friendly and that is bullshit. I don't think it would "completely stop a Terran build", but rather would provide another way of dealing with the one you're referring to. Yes, you can make a second Queen, but they take a long time to build (so, often, if the Terran player has any brains, he can focus down the first Queen before the second one is even halfway done), don't do very much damage and building them will occasionally not let you tech to Lair (which is usually the most effective way of dealing with air harass), if you're still on one hatch. I like the idea as I think the Transfusion ability is an excellent one anyway, but seems to have very diminishing value as the game continues, for various reasons. Oh, and I'd love to see some of those games that you are talking about where "a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game".
How is having sufficient AA (that costs nothing) to deal with an air harass not completely stopping an air harass again?
So you are standing by the idea that:
A) you should be able to have an "oopsie" button and continue your build uninterrupted when the hypothetical terran has basically all-in'd you.
B) x energy is a fair price to pay to stop a cheese build.
Is this correct?
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Why would we want to give the zerg even more anti-air without actually teching to any sort of anti air unit. This would pretty much remove the only reason to not go mass roach.
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would make ultralisk quite useful, I rather see ultra + infestor hydra than roach roach roach. Man, I have to spam marauders so much to kill those dam things.
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On April 07 2010 22:10 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 21:31 jtype wrote:On April 07 2010 20:57 keV. wrote:On April 07 2010 20:20 MiraMax wrote:On April 07 2010 20:01 Rabiator wrote:
The queen can attack ground and air, the Infestor has no such ability. Why should the queen get an ability which almost seems redundant?
Switching these abilities seems like a wish from lazy Zerg players, who want to reduce their risk of ever falling to Void Ray rushes to zero. Getting another base defense "for free" is too cheap IMO. Well, first because the ability is rather useless on the infestor except for some low harass potential and marines are so slow and last so short that they are more a defense buff than an attack ability. This seems to fit well to the queen, where in fact Transfusion is hardly used. Second, Zerg anti air comes as late as tier 2, so they could use a little buff. And third, it's NOT for free. The queen will need to use energy which means less energy for larvae, which has a similar effect as forcing a terran to scan. This creates a nice energy tension. This is just silly. It isn't the same at all. You mean to tell me that missing one inject larva (while being able to have as many queens as you want) costs/risks the same as a Terran rushing banshee? Not even close. It is definitely an "OH SHIT" button, it isn't remotely similar to scan/MULE. Also, spore colonies can be out at Tier 1. Not that they should when, I say again, MAKE A SECOND QUEEN. The majority of you are arguing for this based on the alleged SUPER WEAKNESS against air harass early. When there are dozens of games in which a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game. Giving the queen a spell that completely stops a Terran build is way too noob friendly and that is bullshit. I don't think it would "completely stop a Terran build", but rather would provide another way of dealing with the one you're referring to. Yes, you can make a second Queen, but they take a long time to build (so, often, if the Terran player has any brains, he can focus down the first Queen before the second one is even halfway done), don't do very much damage and building them will occasionally not let you tech to Lair (which is usually the most effective way of dealing with air harass), if you're still on one hatch. I like the idea as I think the Transfusion ability is an excellent one anyway, but seems to have very diminishing value as the game continues, for various reasons. Oh, and I'd love to see some of those games that you are talking about where "a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game". How is having sufficient AA (that costs nothing) to deal with an air harass not completely stopping an air harass again? So you are standing by the idea that: A) you should be able to have an "oopsie" button and continue your build uninterrupted when the hypothetical terran has basically all-in'd you. B) x energy is a fair price to pay to stop a cheese build. Is this correct?
Do you really think that the energy left over in a 'decent' Zerg players' Queen, who has for some reason or another failed to notice that the Terran is doing an "all-in" air attack would be enough to nullify said attack?
Have you ever seen/used/learned anything about infested Terrans?
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Yes, we can make a second queen, but you're missing the bigger picture.
Queen's role is a base defender, and this will further help do her job. For instance, say you fast expanded or teched really early, and want to throw some quick defenders. Or even unsuspected drops and want to buy some time with quick defenders. Zerg cannot wall off and guard with minimal units, and i think infested terrans could really help on this. It is not free. Zerg will have to sacrifice spawn larva timing.
Also, we need other options then making 2nd queen. Queens are 150min and 2 food, and produced slowly at hatch (not from larva). We don't want to make two of them every game just to prepare for an air assault. We can use that 150 min 2 food on something else. The key idea is to buy some time with Summon Infested Terrans, while we build proper AA. If you go all-in with banshees, it will still push through, but at least we can buy some time with a single queen.
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I like this idea. I think Blizzard would have no trouble balancing around this kind of improvement.
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Where is this THIS NEEDS TO BE IMPLEMENTED NOW option in the poll?
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it would be really nice if infestor will get some other spell after this hyperthetical swap, too. because lings used to get a new life after dark swarm research in SC:BW. but sc2 lings are mostly useless in late game.. or not nearly as useful. some sort of aoe heal is nice, but honestly i prefer the old dark swarm.
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Excellent idea, would love this as a Z player. No T1 anti-air just sucks.
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great idea.
maybe make infested terrans a hatch-level upgrade like 50/50 - 60sec. so it would not be used for to much cheese/anti-scout to early...
or make it "spawn broodlings" instead of infested terrans. never was a big fan of spawning infested terrans out of nowhere. would also remove anti-air concerns.
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Infestor / Infested Terran
Queen / Infested Terran
..just doesn't make sense!
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On April 07 2010 20:57 keV. wrote:
This is just silly. It isn't the same at all. You mean to tell me that missing one inject larva (while being able to have as many queens as you want) costs/risks the same as a Terran rushing banshee?
Not even close. It is definitely an "OH SHIT" button, it isn't remotely similar to scan/MULE. Also, spore colonies can be out at Tier 1. Not that they should when, I say again, MAKE A SECOND QUEEN.
The majority of you are arguing for this based on the alleged SUPER WEAKNESS against air harass early. When there are dozens of games in which a harassing terran kills 50000 drones and the worker count remains close throughout the game.
Giving the queen a spell that completely stops a Terran build is way too noob friendly and that is bullshit.
Read what I wrote. I didn't say skipping inject larva once is in any way a similar investment than a Terran rushing banshees. But why should it? Rushing banshees it's typical cheese. It should get punished when it's scouted soon enough.
A second queen would come way to late to counter the cheese unless it's built right away. Do you really want to suggest that two queens would be the new Zerg opener?
And seriously, I think you never encountered infested marines. One marine is 25 energy, so you sacrifice larva inject for each marine you make. If you think that a queen with a single infested terran shuts down banshee harass then you just don't know what you are talking about.
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Awesome idea! Definitely one of the best suggestions I've read. (And I hope blizzard reads too!)
An AoE spell that temporarly increase health regen would be awesome for the infestor. It could be similar in range and cast time of gaurdian shield. (Infestors wouldn't heal themselves or other infestors, and perhaps they would be unable to move while casting?)
In SC:BW, positioning was a huge part of the zerg match-up due to lurkers. They also punished players who lacked detection. If said healing ability worked while the infestor was burrowed, I think that would make for a favorable change in the meta game. Players wouldn't be able to skimp on detection (so they could quickly kill the infestors), and it would make positioning more important for the zerg.
So many people want to bring the lurker back, but banelings already play the role of mass infantry killers. A unit that requires detection and can fortify a postion is the other part of the equation.
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On April 08 2010 03:33 MiraMax wrote:And seriously, I think you never encountered infested marines. One marine is 25 energy, so you sacrifice larva inject for each marine you make. If you think that a queen with a single infested terran shuts down banshee harass then you just don't know what you are talking about.
This, and infested terrans only live for 20 seconds so they'd be a delaying tactic if anything. And having two queens wouldn't make zerg immune to air attacks by any stretch, if anything two queens + four infested terrans would be worse then two queens that can heal each other, Kev you're freaking out over nothing :/ A single queen could defend a little bit better vs properly scouted early air rushes at the significant expense of unit production, and late game queens who've managed to build up some energy would be able to defend a little bit better, that's really about it.
I really like the OPs idea, I don't know if you'd really ever see infested terrans used much anyways but it's definitely a step in the right direction.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
I like this idea. Blizzard, read!
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It's a good idea but the heal from the infestor is gonna have to either heal for not very much or cost a lot of energy (I keep seeing images of like 10 infestors keeping an army of roaches alive eternally >.>)
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i had an idea, instead of giving the infestor transfusion, change fungal growth so that it heals friendly units in the aoe (or maybe any zerg unit to make it more "realistic"). obviously it would need to be rebalanced but i really like the idea of a spell that can target both friendly and enemy units and have an effect on both. fungal growth is pretty boring right now. might make ultras more usable as well since its easier to get a cast off on both armies if they're engaging at melee range.
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mm i never popped an infested terran they attack air?
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I kinda use transfusion one mah queens though =( when there's 2 of them they can keep themselves alive^^ or on spinecrawlers. Not the worst change though
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This is a really cool idea and I think if this was implemented we'd see a lot more infestor usage and a lot more that zerg has to micro (since it's almost 0 at the moment)
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Very, very, very good idea; hope Blizz sees this!
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I actually like the infested terrans. If you've got like 10 infestors you can spawn like 30 of those things in a battle. Your idea is interesting but I don't like the aoe part, I just don't think it's necessary.
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On April 07 2010 05:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Oh that's pretty genius =o I wonder if you could balance it in such a way that it lets zergs scout eachother, to prevent ZvZ from being a blind matchup?
? I don't see how infested terran on the queen would prevent scouting. For 25 energy a pop I'm not sure anyone would would use it just to kill overlords.
I like this idea. It makes more sense to have transfusion on infestors as far as healing units, and the infested terrans make much more sense as a defensive ability.
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EPT
