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On April 01 2010 00:45 Crisium wrote:Wow, is that the area of Storm now? That's bad. That's really bad. Somehow I have a feeling that Blizzard themselves fell for the 25% radius reduction = 25% area, when it's really ~43%. That's really, really bad. I feel embarrassed for Blizzard since that's the best solution their TEAM of developers decided upon. I've rarely seen such a display of lack of creativity out of Blizzard - ever. They could have just spread the damage out over 5 seconds instead of 4. Or just something that doesn't all but negate the usefulness of only 1 Templar. With it now, your opponent will laugh at you if you have only 1 Templar. Multiple can still be somewhat effective, but is it worth it? Maybe the problem was Warping them into any Pylon in 3 seconds and having them start out with 75 energy.Fix that instead, Blizzard. Not every caster has to have the +25 energy upgrade. Give Psi Storm back to it's 2.0 radius, and simply find a different upgrade instead of +25 energy. That's the problem - they're spawning virtually anywhere and attacking instantly. I am simply astounded at how somethings go over the heads of a team of developers so easily. This is why people post pictures of face palms. Things like this.
Blizz knows math 1000x better than you for sure, so don't assume Blizz thought like the way you felt, then you again consider your assumption as a fact, and continue bashing based on that so-called fact. Maybe you should learn some logic and math, and please don't feel embarrassed for Blizz. It's one of the biggest and most successful gaming companies, and they dont give a f about you.
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On April 01 2010 01:29 hixhix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 00:45 Crisium wrote:On March 31 2010 22:40 iounas wrote: Wow, is that the area of Storm now? That's bad. That's really bad. Somehow I have a feeling that Blizzard themselves fell for the 25% radius reduction = 25% area, when it's really ~43%. That's really, really bad. I feel embarrassed for Blizzard since that's the best solution their TEAM of developers decided upon. I've rarely seen such a display of lack of creativity out of Blizzard - ever. They could have just spread the damage out over 5 seconds instead of 4. Or just something that doesn't all but negate the usefulness of only 1 Templar. With it now, your opponent will laugh at you if you have only 1 Templar. Multiple can still be somewhat effective, but is it worth it? Maybe the problem was Warping them into any Pylon in 3 seconds and having them start out with 75 energy.Fix that instead, Blizzard. Not every caster has to have the +25 energy upgrade. Give Psi Storm back to it's 2.0 radius, and simply find a different upgrade instead of +25 energy. That's the problem - they're spawning virtually anywhere and attacking instantly. I am simply astounded at how somethings go over the heads of a team of developers so easily. This is why people post pictures of face palms. Things like this. Blizz knows math 1000x better than you for sure, so don't assume Blizz thought like the way you felt, then you again consider your assumption as a fact, and continue bashing based on that so-called fact. Maybe you should learn some logic and math, and please don't feel embarrassed for Blizz. It's one of the biggest and most successful gaming companies, and they dont give a f about you.
blizz needs to take a step back and change something else in TvP..
Its boring how T can only mass mm all game and now they nerf storm because it was strong against something that terran should not be making lategame
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Storms should be big. Balance things around that instead of making them tiny.
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On March 31 2010 14:23 hellitsaboutme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 14:16 xnub wrote:On March 31 2010 14:05 hellitsaboutme wrote:On March 31 2010 13:40 Spawkuring wrote:On March 31 2010 13:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 31 2010 13:31 LunarC wrote:On March 31 2010 13:22 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 31 2010 13:14 Chairman Ray wrote:
Ok, nerfing storms is the worst thing that they can do. Saying psi storms are overpowered when people deliberately ball up their units is like saying mutas are overpowered when you build nothing but zealots. During a battle when all the units are in a big firing line, storms hits like 4 guys. Now that there are high HP units such as roaches and marauders, I don't see what's the problem in 20 dps for 4 seconds on 4 measly units at the cost of a whopping 150 gas. Let's look at sc1. Storms do 114 damage at a larger radius, and the average unit has less HP. Storms are fair because in competitive play, people don't clump up all their units, or at least try not to. The same thing applies in sc2.
My suggestion is to keep storm the same, but make the animation smaller. Right now, the storming animation covers a much larger area than it damages and I think that's why people think it's so good. With a smaller area, people don't need to pull back their entire army, they just pull back 4 units. Problem solved. Please enlighten me on how to not clump all the units? The collision size is so much smaller amongst units accompanied by the fact that most units used are ranged in SC2. Hydras could dodge storm much easier in SC1 and were much cheaper. It's nigh impossible not to attack in a ball, they almost automatically do it, even if you just tell them to run to the enemy. It's not collision size it's better pathing. SC1 units could potentially clump like SC2 units do, they just don't because the pathing AI makes them scatter or pause a bit. Also the magic box probably had something to do with it. Blizzard really needs to implement some sort of hold-formation+move command and, on a completely unrelated note, bring back F2-F4 screen position hotkeys. Units definitely couldn't clump as close in SC1. It's both really. Collision size and better pathing makes it much harder to split units. Units clump up more due to less collision size, and the removal of the magic box means that units will automatically try to clump up no matter how they are ordered to move. I think most people don't understand that Psi,HSM and Fungal growth are suppposed to counter many-cheap-small units. HTs are higher in the tech tree. So if you see HTs then you have to switch to other units which are larger, expensive and deeper in tech. (Thor, BC, air, tanks, Ravens). Most terrans are stuck with MMM and see everything in MMM perspective. You cannot fight everything with one mix of units. That's totally wrong. Storms supposed to be hard counter to clumped army consisting of low tech cheap units. Thors BC end tech both cost shit tones of min/gas can't mass them or get good #'s to fight with them in any normal game. Tanks are agian alot of min/gas can get the #'s in normal games to do well with them but for most part tanks are VERY meh vs toss and you need ground units to support them MM balls without the MM balls they are worthless unless on def. ravens caster units lol Banshess cool and all but get taken down easy by stalkers/sents for most part only used for harsments. Problem for terran is our mech blows big time very bad lol everything is really support to the MM ball /shrug Then why not to buff terran mech? Which is more reasonable than nerfing others. Seriously don't understand blizs -_-
This is what i want a buff to terran mech mostly just kill the thor bring back the floating tank make it shoot air and lower tank cost a tiny bit
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On April 01 2010 01:29 hixhix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 00:45 Crisium wrote:On March 31 2010 22:40 iounas wrote: Wow, is that the area of Storm now? That's bad. That's really bad. Somehow I have a feeling that Blizzard themselves fell for the 25% radius reduction = 25% area, when it's really ~43%. That's really, really bad. I feel embarrassed for Blizzard since that's the best solution their TEAM of developers decided upon. I've rarely seen such a display of lack of creativity out of Blizzard - ever. They could have just spread the damage out over 5 seconds instead of 4. Or just something that doesn't all but negate the usefulness of only 1 Templar. With it now, your opponent will laugh at you if you have only 1 Templar. Multiple can still be somewhat effective, but is it worth it? Maybe the problem was Warping them into any Pylon in 3 seconds and having them start out with 75 energy.Fix that instead, Blizzard. Not every caster has to have the +25 energy upgrade. Give Psi Storm back to it's 2.0 radius, and simply find a different upgrade instead of +25 energy. That's the problem - they're spawning virtually anywhere and attacking instantly. I am simply astounded at how somethings go over the heads of a team of developers so easily. This is why people post pictures of face palms. Things like this. Blizz knows math 1000x better than you for sure, so don't assume Blizz thought like the way you felt, then you again consider your assumption as a fact, and continue bashing based on that so-called fact. Maybe you should learn some logic and math, and please don't feel embarrassed for Blizz. It's one of the biggest and most successful gaming companies, and they dont give a f about you. They've made balance changes based on math errors in the past, so I wouldn't be too sure.
For example in early WoW they changed Warriors to take 10% less damage instead of doing 10% more damage, motivating it with something along the lines of "The net result is the same while grinding (leveling)". Of course, their math was way of, since if you do 10% more damage, you will at the same time take less damage since what-ever you kills dies much faster and you can proceed to the next mob even faster.
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AND Terran still has the coolest music by far. NERF PLEASE. Or at least buff protoss music t.t/
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On April 01 2010 02:43 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 01:29 hixhix wrote:On April 01 2010 00:45 Crisium wrote:On March 31 2010 22:40 iounas wrote: Wow, is that the area of Storm now? That's bad. That's really bad. Somehow I have a feeling that Blizzard themselves fell for the 25% radius reduction = 25% area, when it's really ~43%. That's really, really bad. I feel embarrassed for Blizzard since that's the best solution their TEAM of developers decided upon. I've rarely seen such a display of lack of creativity out of Blizzard - ever. They could have just spread the damage out over 5 seconds instead of 4. Or just something that doesn't all but negate the usefulness of only 1 Templar. With it now, your opponent will laugh at you if you have only 1 Templar. Multiple can still be somewhat effective, but is it worth it? Maybe the problem was Warping them into any Pylon in 3 seconds and having them start out with 75 energy.Fix that instead, Blizzard. Not every caster has to have the +25 energy upgrade. Give Psi Storm back to it's 2.0 radius, and simply find a different upgrade instead of +25 energy. That's the problem - they're spawning virtually anywhere and attacking instantly. I am simply astounded at how somethings go over the heads of a team of developers so easily. This is why people post pictures of face palms. Things like this. Blizz knows math 1000x better than you for sure, so don't assume Blizz thought like the way you felt, then you again consider your assumption as a fact, and continue bashing based on that so-called fact. Maybe you should learn some logic and math, and please don't feel embarrassed for Blizz. It's one of the biggest and most successful gaming companies, and they dont give a f about you. They've made balance changes based on math errors in the past, so I wouldn't be too sure. For example in early WoW they changed Warriors to take 10% less damage instead of doing 10% more damage, motivating it with something along the lines of "The net result is the same while grinding (leveling)". Of course, their math was way of, since if you do 10% more damage, you will at the same time take less damage since what-ever you kills dies much faster and you can proceed to the next mob even faster.
Thing is, beta is for experiment and that's what they're doing and hoping to get feedbacks from players. Nobody except Blizz knows exactly what their intention of the math underlying the game is, you can say this is too strong/weak and need to be adjusted, that's great. Even better, suggest the possible solutions. That's about it.
However, if you're just some middle school kid who knows the area of a circle = r*r*pi and talks like you know what's going on over the developers' minds, that's ridiculous and stupid. Also, the change of one unit leads to indirect change of other units. It's not like A is weak vs B, so we should buff A and nerf B at the same time. We need have faith in Blizz and make constructive feedbacks instead of whining. If you don't believe in Blizz, stick to BW.
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On April 01 2010 02:51 Haemonculus wrote:
AND Terran still has the coolest music by far. NERF PLEASE. Or at least buff protoss music t.t/
i know right?
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On March 31 2010 04:24 WiljushkA wrote:
really surprised how many people are whining about the storm nerf, it was hugely imbalanced against terrans. terran isnt even my main race and i could consistently beat much more skilled players just as long as i survived until storm tech. only problem is its a bit weak against zerg now, but even in sc1 we didnt use every unit in every matchup.
Well I can say that I've won games I felt I should have lost as T vs P prior to this patch by going defensive mixed units with everything except Ghosts and BCs. Held my half of the map, let them pour zealots and HTs with storms. Marauders with a tiny bit of micro avoid so much storm damage it's nothing to worry about. Bunkers and tanks are also your friends. Upgraded bunkers even more so. Banshees and ravens harass like mad. Hellions run behind lines and snipe a few High Templar.
If I had used ghosts to counter HTs, sure I wouldn't think it an issue. But really... if people just let their units die because they attack move vs psi storm, I have no sympathy.
And be damned if Blizzard is going to nerf specials/balance the game around low level play. That is obviously not the approach that made SC/BW a good game. Many patches to go... nothing is permanent and things are being tested, so let's test and see what happens.
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On March 31 2010 09:59 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 09:46 Synwave wrote:
It's nice to see static d being looked at but Im a bit worried.
If a terran can turtle up with judicious use of missile turrets and seiged tanks he can basically just mass thors and I can't stop him.
Once he has a fair bit of them he can just come out and destroy any unit combination I have at such a cost effective ratio that it doesn't matter if I have nearly twice the bases running.
Muta harass was the only way I had of keeping a Terran honest about this sort of crap but with buffed turrets and now buffed thors I don't see a way of stopping this sort of play. Its too cost effective for him to turtle, and then he comes out with a 1 unit army that is again so cost effective it doesn't matter I might have had 1-2 extra expansions running the entire time.
If I can't harass I just don't see anyway to keep him from timing his push to flatten me... with a one unit (oh sorry, 2 because of course repairing scvs should be with the thors) type army.
Oh well, I guess I can go back to the fun of ZvZ and using queens as my static D because spore colonies have the range of a burrowed roach still. D= Next time try to use lings, they eat thors for breakfast (another effective units include roaches and broodlords). Or do they get killed by the mighty scvs or what lol?
I've exactly been confronted to this situation yesterday.
But as I had 3 expands, even if he rolled on my main, I rebuilded Sprire/pool, and mass lings&mutas (like 24 mutas) and I raped his Thors (4) Marines/Tank, without leaving him any chance to expand due to muta mobility. Important to notice, he didn't repair his Thors while in combat. Muta seems still up against terran in mass.
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On March 31 2010 06:37 Rucky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 06:28 Koffiegast wrote:On March 31 2010 06:14 Rucky wrote:
storms were just too powerful in scbw which made mnm not usable at all. they're trying to make mnm viable so the ht nerf is reasonable. It's too crazy to lose 250+ minerals of marines to 1 storm. This is terrible for game changing wow moments but better for balance. So what about HSM against 10+ muta? Just saying. Blizzard isn't trying to support zerg users to mass mutas versus zerg are they?? exactly. Blizzard's patches are reasonable in that they patch what they want to support in the game. It's already been said that they want TvP to not be mech only and be mnm friendly. I never really said anything about me supporting this. I'm just saying it tones down wow moments which I don't like much, but will accept this if it does make games more variable.
I'm good with making TvP bio friendly for T... it makes sense to change it up from BW. But if they nerf storm area/damage, they need to reduce energy costs so it can be cast more often. Upon second casting, a decent micro player will have spread remaining bio army apart preparing for the 2nd cast, etc.
I still say with more marauders up front than marines, you can easy back the marauders out of way of storm with little damage. If the P engages with Zealots at the same time to try to force a fight, the zealots will run into his own storm. With all the EMP vs Storm debates, it seems like people forget that EMP doesn't actually damage your own units.
I think the problem where people believe storm is too good (regardless of how many times it is nerfed), is that they are used to attack move, they want to go all MMM, or they want to meet the Protoss anywhere anytime and be able to react after the fact. Even classic TvP required the T to attempt to force the P to meet on the T's terms. Now it is no different IMO, even though as MMM Terran you "feel" more mobile than BW Terran- you are not more mobile when Protoss AOE comes into play. I think going all MMM past mid-game is a bad idea against competent Protoss and should be. Terran are just spoiled vs players early in the beta who didn't know how to handle mass MMM.
Play to the Terran strengths past early game. Defense with walls, tanks, bunkers, and now more than ever harass... they are all good against a straight forward ground army with HT support. Ravens are great for battles and harass if you avoid feedback. Scout like a mofo. If the Protoss approaches with an army seemingly devoid of HT, scan the back of his army to watch for HT. Plan accordingly or snipe HT with banshees/hellions/ghosts/sieged tanks. Banshees are great vs ground. Vikings are great vs air. Banshees and/or reapers should kill workers or at least force lots of money wasted on cannons.
Tanks and bunkers outright counter psi storm. If the Protoss goes so heavy ground that he can take out tanks/bunkers, you should be outclassing him from the air with banshees, vikings, and ravens or you were outplayed. So while you have to be ahead to simply waltz up and siege/bunker in front a P, if you play defensively in the right moments and inch up when you win a battle you gain ground in a big way. Some maps may be more ground friendly, but banshees and ravens are so good you can never go wrong with them. OMG, raven turrets are incredible. If you win a head to head fight, leftover turrets will be there the next round of Protoss units... they last forever and draw fire to attack moved ground forces really well. Plus they are a free scout if they are "leftovers".
And even if you decide to go all out MMM... if MMM controls the flow of the match the first half of the match, then an AOE counter to MMM is a fair answer to that. If the T commits to pure MMM, he better win sooner. If he techs and mixes it up, the Protoss will have a hard time adapting.
-apologies for any typos or whatnot... out of time hitting post now
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the static defense buffs are awesome, but really, storm didn't need that. T is beating P already and just with mass T1 units and ghost support (EMP is pretty much an instant feedbackstorm vs P now, except more damage and bigger AoE)
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I haven't actually played the Beta but doesn't it seem like they just keep nerfing Protoss and buffing Terran?
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On April 01 2010 03:03 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 02:51 Haemonculus wrote:
AND Terran still has the coolest music by far. NERF PLEASE. Or at least buff protoss music t.t/ i know right?
There are still 1 Terran track, and 5 Protoss tracks left to be released. I guess we would get to listen to it in the final version. This is assuming that each race gets 6 music tracks.
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i really dont see what s the reasoning behind buffing Banshees
Also broodlords nerf.. idk about it, i think it was fine, it was really hard to tech to broodlords and produce them safely. yes if you actually had them out they were really strong, but you could get killed befor that a lot easier
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Another idea for a fix to High Templars would be to revert psi-storm to what it was before Patch 7, but remove the +25 energy upgrade when warping.
Replace it with an "Increased Energy Regen" upgrade? This would help somewhat against EMP and wouldn't be imba imo. And psi-storm wouldn't have to become a weak ability...
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Poor zergs.
Especially because the buff to static defenses (more regular damage, less + to armor) does nothing to stop ZvZ from being a boring roach war.
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The broodlings seem like they need to be nerfed, the AI flips out pretty bad when the broodlings come out. Maybe make it so they are not able to be targeted, which would pretty much just make them a DoT effect.
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MT buff was definitely made for anti-Muta as was the Thor splash - Zerg might bring along a few Corruptors to disable MTs
Cannons are only slightly less paper defences with +25 HP/SP (slight anti-Muta boost) - again Zerg might build a few Corruptors if Cannons fare too well V Mutas
Spores -25M cost is nice but pointless if Banshees can pick them off 1 at a time due to range - perhaps Z defences should be given deep burrow to remain hidden(unable to detect/attack) whom will unburrow (not uproot) when Z players wants them to attack
This could be an upgrade or a unique Zerg defensive ability involving Crawlers and Creep Tumors - Crawlers would link upto Tumors by burrowing on top of them (1 Crawler per CT) and gain the deep burrow ability
Nostalgia of Sc1 Creep Colonies
Dark Shrine should once again be part of the Templar Archives - allowing for a quick switch between HT/DT if either is ineffective in a match
200M 300G 75BT 700HP 700SP sounds fair or keep the current Templar Archive cost 150/200/50 but require an upgrade to build DT (100/100/60)
Tanks - increase DPS to 25 in siege mode
Immortals should receive a +25G increase in lieu of a nerf (+10 armored damage from the original 20+20A must have slipped past the Toss Nerf Tribunal or TNT for short 
Phoenix - change attack to 10+10L give AG 6R or change ability so Phoenixs can attack ground for 10 seconds for 50 or 75E (light bonus may have to be removed from AtG attack)
Corruptors use energy for their ability so it would make sense(too much for Bliz? that Brood Lords used E for Broodling production
20 base attack - Broodlings cost 25E and are automatically attached to attack unless autocast is disabled (to save up E for the next battle when the outcome is clearly in your favor) base attack becomes 25 when E is used
Infestors - i-Marines can be cast while burrowed but Infestors show just like burrowed units when opponent has detection and can be manually targeted
Overseer - Obs are clocked Ravens can indirectly attack OSs have Changlings - grant second ability such as increase Spore Crawler Range (temp Sc1 Parasite or air Ensnare would also do)
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they need to make toss better :/
i think maruders r too strong compared to rines
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm55/zanderfever/Screenshot000.jpg)
