Hey guys, just wanted to share a fun commentary/replay of a game LzGaMeR played on his stream yesterday. Don't want to spoil anything more than what the title already did, so here you have it:
And for those who don't know, LzGaMeR is a member of Team Evil Geniuses and streams at http://www.livestream.com/lzgamer and is a featured stream here at TeamLiquid.net. =)
That probe really didn't have to scout for an early expo. The CC had Orbital so obviously Lz has a barracks. Something to keep in mind for scouting cheesy terrans.
Fun game, though protoss foolishly kept warping in units in range of the thor though, allowing them to be nearly one shotted. Would probably fail vs better players.
Another thing there, Sid could have just waited for all 5 to come off CD at one time, made 5 zealots, then scrambled to kill 2-3 SCV's per wave. He might have been able to hold it off. Also focus firing the Thor when it first popped out instead of the SCV's proved to be a huge turning point. One thor without support is just 400 hp... one thor with 11 SCV's is endless hp!
The big mistake was how he lost his first army because he forgot it can be repaired. If he just backed up got 2 more cd's worth of warp ins it wouldn't have been a problem imo.
The shear size of the Thor allows for such a great SCV repair saturation surrounding it. Really fun game to watch, also a robo + immortal spam might have done some good as well as opposed to mass warp gates
On March 25 2010 04:01 staba wrote: Fun game, though protoss foolishly kept warping in units in range of the thor though, allowing them to be nearly one shotted. Would probably fail vs better players.
I dont think it would make a difference? Thor two shot a zealot whether it's warped in range or not
On March 25 2010 03:49 TheComeback wrote: 1 thor + scvs... > 5 protoss warpgates, incredible
protoss player was defending very badly imo, he could have warped 2-3 waves of units near his mineral line and then destroy terran force with help of probes.
and most importantly, don't focus the thor when there are 10 scvs near ~~
I really feel like terran gets all the cool strategies you know. Every time I see a crazy strategy thread it's like "Aaah I wish I was terran" Are there any cool protoss cheeses/strats out there that I just haven't seen yet?
I wonder what would have happened if Boxer had been Protoss O.O
But Terran has been considered underdog race at the early pioneering days of Starcraft you know, so I think they deserve this luxury: I call this Magikarp Effect.
This build itself is actually not all-in. Bringing 11 scv's does make it all-in, yes, but if you scout no robo, you have a free win pretty much as marines/thor/scv's will beat all gateway units if microed properly. If there is a robo pumping immo's, you just back off, and have the gas/tech/resources to get fast banshees for an even easier win. The marine pressure out of reactor forces a bit more gateway units then a robo-toss would normally get, delaying immos. Also, if you can hide the fac properly (on maps like LT it's very easy), the toss is more inclined to fast tech to coli (due to your heavy marine opening) giving you even more of an advantage with the first push. Anything less than 3 immortals can be beaten if you have good micro and don't get surrounded by any pulled probes.
Nice execution LZ, glad to see this build in action.
I was just wondering why thor rushes with scvs are not used. Well I didn't expect to see it THIS way... more like early factories into hellions into thors with scvs.
On March 25 2010 04:20 haster27 wrote: I wonder what would have happened if Boxer had been Protoss O.O
But Terran has been considered underdog race at the early pioneering days of Starcraft you know, so I think they deserve this luxury: I call this Magikarp Effect.
Boxer played Protoss until some patch nerfed Protoss (specificaly Dragoons I think) so he switched to Terran.
Boxer's first games consisted of Zealot rushes only
Everyone who's saying how protoss should have warped near mineral line needs to realize its not so easy to think like that when you have your base under fire and honestly if not for the constant attack the Thor would shutdown 3 of the gates before he could mass there. I'm actually wondering why he wasted the bombardment on a stalker instead of the pylon powering 3 gateways.
Also, Immortal vs Thor? If he had Immortal he would be falling to the marines (no stalkers), not to mention Thor kills Immortal (just use bombardment). All that bonus damage and fancy shields are not really going to do you any good if you die in one hit. Its easy to say "why didn't he build XXX" when the answer is obviously because "he was building YYY" (which may not seem much but they killed that mass of marines; something zealots were failing at.
On March 25 2010 04:20 haster27 wrote: I wonder what would have happened if Boxer had been Protoss O.O
But Terran has been considered underdog race at the early pioneering days of Starcraft you know, so I think they deserve this luxury: I call this Magikarp Effect.
Boxer played Protoss until some patch nerfed Protoss (specificaly Dragoons I think) so he switched to Terran.
Boxer's first games consisted of Zealot rushes only
It was the patch the nerf the reaver... Boxer love to Shutlel+reaver and micro the shit out of his oponents, then he decide he was going to change and got Terran as it was the underdog XD
Asome game by LZ really nice to see the thor getting some use, they kinda suck...
Protoss could have walked 3 zealots into LZ's undefended main when he had like 7 zealots to 12 marines. Doesn't really seem like a viable strat with the way LZ went about it.
For some reason I really felt like Lz shouldn't have won that game after he got scouted. Of course I'm oblivious to SC2 so it's harder for me to tell if the P was defending well or not. I don't know that's just crazy that he could win after having his entire plan discovered.
Immortals would kill that so much, i remember a very weird game on the day of beta release against Strelok where he massed thors and tanks and i just went immortal... It's really not viable tbh..
the ability needs 100 energy and thors spawn with 50. so it takes some time until he can use his ability for the first time.
and with lzgamers BO the thor is finished at 7:07 gametime. you can have 2 immortals at that time without sacrificing too many zeals/stalkers.
and sid would have had no problem building a robo-facility. but he over adjusted when he saw the proxy rax with reactor and built 2 more gates instead (for a total of 5).
Protoss didn't defend it nearly well enough. He could have done a number of things, like just waiting for a bigger army and sniping SCVs first or just move to LZ's main and kill him faster than a single Thor.
You should also notice that Thor almost died at the very start (it was down to 50 HP I believe), so it was luck based.
Just watched the replay, awesome game. The thor just two-shots all the protoss units. And it looked like when he just popped out, that some zealots were bugging from the force field otherwise Thor (and terran) woulda died.
On March 25 2010 06:48 Pulimuli wrote: wont protoss have enough immortals to rape the shit out of those 2 thors?
Well, the 2 thors arrive at about 5:35 + walking time, so on Steppes of War it's about 6:20 or so.. with 3 and 4 thors at about 7:20 and 7:40.. In any sane protoss build they would have 2 immortals max.
I also worked out an insane out of control unsafe protoss build that goes straight immortal -- with that build they would have 6 or 7 by the time the thors got there >:D
Commentator made a few errors. For example when the probe scouted initially he said something along the lines of "since there's no barracks he's going to know there's either a proxy barracks or a fast expand" when the Orbital Command was being built so there was obviously a proxy barracks.
Me and Fortune.Syn were curious and tried it. Went gate robo gate, obs saw fast armory and I started another chrono'd immortal when I saw the Thor come out. Thor got taken out in a few seconds by 2 immortals even with all the SCVs and I don't think I lost any units.
Sid didn't play it out very well though and I'm sure he's kicking himself for losing that game in that way. Even with the game progressing to the contain in Sid's base (though it shouldn't really have happened), Sid could have easily warped his gateway units to the back of the base and massed units enough to take the Thor out, or at least not have warped his units within range of the Thor.
well, sid pretty messedd up his micro, lots of the zealots he had when the thor came weren't attacking at all, just standing there or trying to get to the thor instead of at least killing the scvs
On March 25 2010 04:01 staba wrote: Fun game, though protoss foolishly kept warping in units in range of the thor though, allowing them to be nearly one shotted. Would probably fail vs better players.
I dont think it would make a difference? Thor two shot a zealot whether it's warped in range or not
Warping the zealots in range = 3 seconds of free shots.
On March 25 2010 04:18 Inschato wrote: I really feel like terran gets all the cool strategies you know. Every time I see a crazy strategy thread it's like "Aaah I wish I was terran" Are there any cool protoss cheeses/strats out there that I just haven't seen yet?
Watch the latest MLG showcase game 3. Idra on protoss.
The first battle at the factor was bad tbh. I think the toss player must have told his zeals to attack the thor. When the forcefield went up, the SCVs blocked the way to the thor and here the toss player made a misstake. He did not re target his zeals to attack the SCVs so instead of killing of the SCVs they just ran around doing nothing, allowing Lz to keep all his SCVs and picking of units that wasent doing any damage.
Had he killed SCVs it would have been harder for Lz to keep the Thor alive in the toss base. I mean warp in 2 rounds of units away from the Thor range, you can even let him kill one gateway and then move in. Better to take that chance then to let the thor kill 2 out of 3 units before they can even fire or hit the thor.
If you guys have seen any other wacky replays or rush attempts, those are the kinds that I enjoy commentating. Something away from the norm of mass and expand.
Tested this out. It's an all in build but very easy to counter with marine/marauder (I'm guessing) but hard to stop with protoss. I'll get a replay up. 3-0 with this build so far. Although, I've changed a little bit so that this build comes up as one big timing push. (I suck btw). Although this does stop 2 starport banshees. Hopefully this will move the metagame along so I don't have to deal with annoying ass banshees.
oh and i realize the players i were up against weren't too good. i just wanted to finish my placements and wanted to test out a more efficient build. any thoughts?
On March 26 2010 17:51 wesleyq wrote: Tested this out. It's an all in build but very easy to counter with marine/marauder (I'm guessing) but hard to stop with protoss. I'll get a replay up. 3-0 with this build so far. Although, I've changed a little bit so that this build comes up as one big timing push. (I suck btw). Although this does stop 2 starport banshees. Hopefully this will move the metagame along so I don't have to deal with annoying ass banshees.
oh and i realize the players i were up against weren't too good. i just wanted to finish my placements and wanted to test out a more efficient build. any thoughts?
Keep at it, and we'll see if Thor pushes need a nerf. It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?