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Vedic
United States582 Posts
On March 04 2010 20:37 thunk wrote: There's no high ground advantage of being on a cliff? That's like not having an advantage at all. It needs to be put back into the game. Pretty sure units don't reveal on shots anymore. You need a flying spotter, and you have to keep it alive. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On March 04 2010 20:15 {88}iNcontroL wrote: You couldn't show me a situation where 20 goons shoot 3 volleys to kill 1 tank. I get your point but the exaggeration detracts from what is being discussed here. Random is an integral part of the game.. I know for you greg this doesn't compute. I'm sorry but "every 4th shot" is garbage. What if they shoot 3? Does the 4th shot from "anything" MISS 100% for the span of the rest of the game? Is there a clock on the miss? How do you calculate the 4th shot when everything is firing at once? Where is the reward in that anyways? Random has to be a part of this game greg. Sorry. It has to. If it isn't you will be left with an inferior version of the game. there any particular reason you're more of a condescending douchebag than normal whenever you reply to me on here? figuring out acceptable answers to those questions is a hell of a lot better than leaving in randomness for the sake of randomness. some random things are unavoidable. we deal with that because we have to. but randomness is TERRIBLE for competitive gaming. you want games to be decided by things that are out of your control? ya, theres problems with having the 4th shot miss. but there is no ideal solution here and randomness is a very bad thing that can be easily eliminated. if a unit only fires 3 shots while downhill, then it hits 3 times. oh well. a clock seems perfectly reasonable, 3 shots hit, next uphill shot misses if fired in the next x seconds. battles do not take that long, chances are its gonna reset before you manage to engage in another uphill battle. what do you mean calculate 4 shot when everythings firing at once? just have it be 4th shot per unit. the reward is that its not random. when the hit percentage can vary alot from battle to battle you dont know when to engage and when not to, whether you'll be safe or not. the version with unnecessary randomness is the inferior version. | ||
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Scorch
Austria3371 Posts
I'd like something that lets players estimate the high ground advantage beforehand. Be it damage, range or armor modifiers, or even the good old miss chance. I also want units shooting from high ground to reveal themselves briefly, thus enabling the defender to assess the situation better and let him cast spells semi-blindly. It is an important skill to know when to charge and when not to, and the current mechanic prevents that due to the uncertainty of your spotter's survival. | ||
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geno
United States1404 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
btw apparently "random" isn't terrible for competitive gaming -> SCBW ^_^ seemed to do ok with it. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On March 04 2010 20:33 Icks wrote: I dont like randomness. And i dont see the purpose of damage reduction. If they really want to improve the gameplay with cliffs, they might add a bonus RANGE for units up. (and maybe even a dead zone for units too close, down the cliff.) I like this solution the best. A: It's not random. B: It's not broodwar for the sake of broodwar. C: It'll bring a lot of skill into the game, even more so than before. Now you can position your units so they can't be hit from below. | ||
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Audiohelper123
80 Posts
On March 04 2010 20:51 {88}iNcontroL wrote: calm down greg. Sorry I used the word "compute" and called out your exaggeration. btw apparently "random" isn't terrible for competitive gaming -> SCBW ^_^ seemed to do ok with it. it would do better without it. why did you even point this out? SCBW has many things it can improve on and it seems to do ok without them | ||
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Radiomouse
Netherlands209 Posts
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stenole
Norway869 Posts
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Audiohelper123
80 Posts
On March 04 2010 20:52 Klive5ive wrote: I like this solution the best. A: It's not random. B: It's not broodwar for the sake of broodwar. C: It'll bring a lot of skill into the game, even more so than before. Now you can position your units so they can't be hit from below. lol what how is damage reduction random or unskillful. Your units are twice as hard to kill, its very simple and works the same way miss chance does. | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
If it encourages positional play which is seriously lacking in SC2, I'm all for it. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 04 2010 20:53 Audiohelper123 wrote: it would do better without it. why did you even point this out? SCBW has many things it can improve on and it seems to do ok without them Because my point is that it wouldn't do better without it.. and I made that point. Don't need to continue to rehash it. He said that it is "bad for competitive" gaming. But SCBW has been shown to do BETTER than any other RTS EVER with random elements. In fact I would argue the randomness of a reaver, spider mine, spawning location, bo and uphill/ramp (to name a few examples) is what has MADE scbw so great. Games need X factor elements that go beyond "I did the math better so I won" luck, randomness and chaos make things better.. of course in moderation. My OP argues that this is one of those cases where a mere "X always happens" be it a missed shot, damage or whatever is bad because it makes the game more predictable and bland. SCBW gave a potential reward that varied in impact when it came to ramps/cliffs.. that randomness IN THAT APPLICATION was exciting and awesome. It also didn't "ruin" the game or "make it worse" because each player knew approximately what they were getting into when they fought on ramps. That advantage was enough to turn tides or NOT from time to time.. and not knowing or having the impact felt on hand was really really cool. | ||
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Audiohelper123
80 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
The random factor is producing the same thing, but in some cases no matter how good or bad your decision making is, luck can decide your fate completely, which I think is bad for a competitive game. And no I dont think SC1 is a bad game, but I feel improvements can be done where it is due. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On March 04 2010 20:55 Audiohelper123 wrote: lol what how is damage reduction random or unskillful. Your units are twice as hard to kill, its very simple and works the same way miss chance does. you quoted the wrong person. I agree with you, dmg reduction is fine. I like the range solution more, since it'll add another dimension to cliff play. | ||
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1613 Posts
In SC1 i can go 2 zeals, 2 goons of 1 base and tech to something interesting In SC2 i must build mass-zealots or mass early units because my opponent can attack me any second and i will not have any positional advantage even if i'm on my own base SC2 force u to do some things that dont give u a chance to play creative. Thats a big problem! | ||
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ven
Germany332 Posts
On March 04 2010 20:44 IdrA wrote: there any particular reason you're more of a condescending douchebag than normal whenever you reply to me on here? figuring out acceptable answers to those questions is a hell of a lot better than leaving in randomness for the sake of randomness. some random things are unavoidable. we deal with that because we have to. but randomness is TERRIBLE for competitive gaming. you want games to be decided by things that are out of your control? ya, theres problems with having the 4th shot miss. but there is no ideal solution here and randomness is a very bad thing that can be easily eliminated. if a unit only fires 3 shots while downhill, then it hits 3 times. oh well. a clock seems perfectly reasonable, 3 shots hit, next uphill shot misses if fired in the next x seconds. battles do not take that long, chances are its gonna reset before you manage to engage in another uphill battle. what do you mean calculate 4 shot when everythings firing at once? just have it be 4th shot per unit. the reward is that its not random. when the hit percentage can vary alot from battle to battle you dont know when to engage and when not to, whether you'll be safe or not. the version with unnecessary randomness is the inferior version. Just reduce attack speed by 25%. You still get three hits in the time four attacks should be fired without having to deal with some ridiculous cooldowns and individual unit attack counters. It deals the same damage over time as a miss chance but without being unpredictable. | ||
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On March 04 2010 20:31 Rothbardian wrote: It's not the same thing. With the miss chance, when you land a hit you deal full damage. As we know having a 50% chance, doesn't mean that hit/miss will be 50%, only that you have a 50% chance each roll of the dice to either hit or miss. They are two totally different entities. If you were to take infinity shots, 50% damage reduction and 50% miss chance are actually identical. But in the short term they are quite different. if you imagine damage done over time as a straight line for 50% damage reduction, 50% miss chance will be a curve (piecewise linear really) that bounces above and below that straight line, adding an element of randomness. For example, if a unit does 10 damage against a unit with 30 hit points, the number of shots required to kill it for 50% miss chance ranges between 3 and very very large. In the same scenario, 50% damage reduction will always take 6 shots to kill. My personal opinion on this is that % damage reduction is the way to go. It gives an advantage to high ground but does not add an necessary random element to the game. | ||
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Audiohelper123
80 Posts
On March 04 2010 21:13 Klive5ive wrote: you quoted the wrong person. I agree with you, dmg reduction is fine. I like the range solution more, since it'll add another dimension to cliff play. range would be the absolute hardest solution to implement and wouldnt help a zealot hold off stalkers. | ||
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