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It's over Anakin! - Page 16

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
March 05 2010 02:29 GMT
#301
Not only do I love star wars but I think this change is totally necessary!
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
TwilightStar
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States649 Posts
March 05 2010 02:30 GMT
#302
I hope that blizzard sees this thread... Blizzard REALLY needs to keep it like it was in BW, it's an important aspect of map control!
(5)Twilight Star.scx --------- AdmiralHoth: There was one week when I didn't shave for a month.
prototype.
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada4200 Posts
March 05 2010 02:31 GMT
#303
blizzard should just give bonus damage to units on higher ground... bonus damage seems to be the trend these days in sc2 =.=
( ・´ー・`)
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13919 Posts
March 05 2010 02:41 GMT
#304
no :/ just miss chance please
Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
SouL)R(MizaR
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia111 Posts
March 05 2010 02:42 GMT
#305
units would die to fast if you increased damage. 5% less damage to attacker from low grounds sounds good
www.izhere.webs.com Starcraft 2 Clan Website
Drium
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States888 Posts
March 05 2010 02:42 GMT
#306
Instead of a chance to miss they should reduce the damage units do when attacking units on higher elevation. Like instead of having a 70% chance to hit you would just do 70% damage with 100% accuracy.
KwanROLLLLLLLED
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
March 05 2010 02:42 GMT
#307
You couldn't show me a situation where 20 goons shoot 3 volleys to kill 1 tank.

Once I had 3 tanks in siege mode shooting up at 2 lurkers on on a cliff. There were a total of about 14 shots and the last lurker never died because I had to bring my army back to defend my nat which was under attack. I feel it lost me the game. I don't think games should be decided this way. I agree with a mechanic like 1/2 of all shots always missing when firing upward. I don't like it being random, and I don't care if that's less realistic. It's the future, baby, it can work anyway we want it to, we can fill the plot holes later.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-05 02:57:02
March 05 2010 02:54 GMT
#308
random is better then consistent in terms of dramatic play in games. imo random just for the ESPORTS nothing stirs up the crowd more when someone wins a fight that they shouldn't have

Also then what stops someone say putting a thor i think thors have high armor up their hill to dmg soak with the dmg reduction so they take like 0 dmg.
Bwenjarin Raffrack
Profile Joined November 2008
United States322 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-05 03:02:05
March 05 2010 03:01 GMT
#309
On March 05 2010 11:42 Lysdexia wrote:
Instead of a chance to miss they should reduce the damage units do when attacking units on higher elevation. Like instead of having a 70% chance to hit you would just do 70% damage with 100% accuracy.


Seriously, does no one read anymore? If you would have read just one post at random from this thread, there's less than a 10% miss chance for this being mentioned in it.

I love TL, but this is increasingly frustrating. This is why we can't have nice things/discussions.
I'm not as thunk as dreople pink I am.
Vestige
Profile Joined November 2009
United States303 Posts
March 05 2010 03:11 GMT
#310
if this is the case, why not just have a flat map i agree - put back the high ground advtg
"You'd wish it were hell"
DefMatrixUltra
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada1992 Posts
March 05 2010 03:25 GMT
#311
On March 04 2010 20:14 qoou wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2010 20:10 IdrA wrote:
randomness isnt a good thing, but the old way was better than this

it should be every 4th shot misses or something that provides the same effect without having the situations arise where 20 goons are shooting uphill at a tank and take 3 volleys to kill it/2 goons are shooting uphill at a tank and dont miss once in 4 volleys.


Or simply a % dmg reduction for the low ground units.



On March 04 2010 20:17 Gliche wrote:
Imo it should not be random. It should be a set percentage of damage reduction, like most ranged units have a 30% damage decrease when firing from low to high ground, with exceptions like the colossus and siege tank and something for zerg (lurkers if they were in the game).

The same idea could possibly be applied with a smaller reduction to those line of sight "bushes" too but I think gameplay-wise they shouldn't. Firing with ranged units behind those bushes should be strategic enough by itself.


On March 04 2010 20:22 ejac wrote:
While I know this is lame, I've always thought a good compromise would be to remove the miss chance, and just have a % damage reduction. That way there is no randomness, and gives high ground an advantage.

I don't really have a problem with a miss chance for it is fairly predictably random. In wc3 (not a wc3 hater, this is just the way it is) items are not predictably random, and do favor one side which is not a good thing.

High ground was definitely too strong in sc1. High ground does seems stronger than I thought it would be in sc2, but perhaps it should be a little better. Just basing this on streams.


On March 04 2010 20:22 Go0g3n wrote:
I'm not sure if misses exist in StarCraft II altogether, probably not, as shots follow targets literally to the other side of the map like they do in WarCraft III with teleport, you can test this, - get a goon to shot at a zerg unit entering Nydus, come out on the other side and bam )))

What they could do, however is just decrease damage to 75% on every 2nd shot up the ground.

As for randomness there shouldn't be such thins as scarab glitch, worker glitch or anything like that. If you're working BOs to the point of a single second the success should only depend on the maths of skill vs. skill and BO vs. BO, not poor mechanics design.


On March 04 2010 20:26 ven wrote:
I dislike the randomness too. It's alright if you have a lot of units or just rapid attack speed because the hits and misses even out fairly quickly and in essence become a damage reduction but with fewer units it can even decide games which just shouldn't be possible.

As someone else already suggested, just put in some disadvantage for units fighting uphill (whether it be nerfing attack damage or attack speed or even reducing their range) and we get both high ground advantage and get rid of the randomness.



On March 04 2010 20:53 Radiomouse wrote:
Maybe they can reduce damage done when shooting up a cliff (this way you can have cliff advantage and you don't introduce randomness.).



On March 04 2010 20:54 stenole wrote:
I think I like a damage reduction option better than a miss chance. Either a set damage reduction or a percentage. It not only gives a more predictable outcome but it also becomes an incentive to choose armour upgrades. It seems to me choosing attack upgrades are the default right now. Props to incontrol for bringing it up, although I feel the video does not really illustrate the point he tries to make.



On March 04 2010 22:01 papaz wrote:
First I thought "this just sounds stupid" but then I realized it would be fun to add a positional dimension to the game like this.

In this way like your example someone being down in army size still could have a chance to counter the stronger army by positioning.

But it shouln't be some random thing. It should be a straight forward dmg % reduction.

Good suggestion.




On March 04 2010 22:06 Error Ash wrote:
No randomnes for Starcraft 2 please. This is one reason why the removal of reavers was a good thing (i like the unit overall, but scarabs going off or not being almost totally random just SUCKED). On the other hand i think there should be more high ground advantage than there is now. But please no random miss stuff, make it 20% less damage all the time or something, otherwise its just gambling...



On March 04 2010 22:11 iG.Zeep wrote:
% dmg reduction plz



On March 04 2010 22:27 Senx wrote:
Simply implement a dmg reduction percentage for units fighting "uphill" .. theres not even anything random about it, but it awards positional advantage.



On March 04 2010 23:06 mawno wrote:
Random miss chance is horrible. Keep it the way it is or have a static damage reduction.





On March 05 2010 00:18 da_head wrote:
i really think it should be a set damage reduction. the whole randomness reduction really pissed me off, but with a set percentage reduction, a strategical advantage is still gained from having the high ground



On March 05 2010 00:27 LightRailCoyote wrote:
I think that if a unit fires from the low ground, That a 25 percent damage reduction should be applied. It seems to just make sense for me, especially because I always imagined in a true Starcraft battle, that there would be far more than 200 supply of units per side. Masses of tanks and bunkers, huge sprawling bases, 200/200 of carriers supported by arbiters, hundreds of mutalisks. Thus if some of the shots "Miss" from low to high ground, then the overall damage output is reduced. Of course, that requires a huge stretch of imagination from some, so i also think that it would make gameplay better, due to the fact that the SC:BW miss chance was doing the same thing, just implemented in a way that, by definition creates more variance.

Secondly, I liked how in Brood War, if a unit fired at you from the high ground, you could see it momentarily through the fog of war. Of course, you'd miss a good part of the time, but it makes sense that a unit in a futuristic world would be able to gauge angle and return fire. Terran and Protoss are full of computers and Zerg were basically bred for war. I think that this should be in the new game as well. It just kind of makes sense.

Alternatively, Ewan McGregor should come and cut their legs off and dump them into lava. The advantage of high ground.



On March 05 2010 00:42 Zack1900 wrote:
I think the perfect solution would be to give a damage reduction to the person on the high ground. High ground should be a BIG deal in my opinion. My idea would add to the effectiveness of ramps in the late game since by then you almost always have a way to get vision (any air unit, colossus, scan).It would also not add randomness to the game. (oh crap they are on higher ground than me I will only do X damage instead of the normal Y.

Does anyone have thoughts on this idea?



On March 05 2010 01:23 aRod wrote:
Agreed, shooting up a cliff should reduce the chance of doing full damage.




On March 05 2010 01:37 Dr.Frost wrote:
I don't this k its should be random like in sc1 but I do think it should be more similar. It should be if you are fighting up hill all damage is reduced by 10% (or maybe in sc2 terms fighting up hill, units on top all have +1 or +2 armor). J think this would be a fine change that takes out 'chance' but adds a similar mechanic as sc1.



On March 05 2010 02:55 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Taking out randomness is fine with me. Why can't they make things do 70% damage uphill instead of hitting 70% of the time?



On March 05 2010 03:16 Undisputed- wrote:
In WoW pvp they took steps have RNG take less effect. I think that's what they were going for. Maybe instead of making shots miss uphill they should just reduce damage by the % of what the miss should be. Say if miss rate was 50% shooting uphill, instead of shots missing just reduce damage by 50%.




On March 05 2010 03:43 KungKras wrote:
Damage reduction is the obvious choice. It gives a positional advantage without randomness.

I have no idea how blizzard could come up with the system that they have now and think it's better than just having damage reduction.



On March 05 2010 04:39 prOxi.Beater wrote:
Taking the random factor out of the game is great, however I also agree that increasing the effeciency of units that are positioned at a high ground gives the game a lot of FUN depth. My solution would be that instead of low ground units hitting 70% of their shots they would simply do 70% damage. Problem solved.




On March 05 2010 04:56 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I don't know if this has already been suggested, but perhaps rather than a 30% Miss chance (RNG, random, aka people hate)

Have any unit on lower ground attacking a unit on higher ground just do something like 20% less damage? (the exact percent is up for grabs. point is, units do less damage to high-ground units)

I am pretty sure this solves the problem of both RNG, and lack of high ground's strategic importance.

Just throwing spitballs.

tl;dr: Units on high ground take less damage when attacked by units on low ground.



On March 05 2010 05:30 starcraft911 wrote:
I totally agree that being on a cliff should give you a significant advantage, however, I also believe that RANDOM = BAD.

Best option in my mind is to make units shooting upward only do 75% dmg or something along those lines. This way pros can calculate in their head the risk vs reward rather than getting shit on because their goons missed 6 shots in a row on a one in a million shit storm of bad luck.




On March 05 2010 11:21 RisingTide wrote:
Rather than trying to implement a chance based system, why not simply have it so that a unit on the high ground has +X armor factored into any damage calculations? The number can be tweaked for balance of course, but this gives a very predictable advantage to having the high ground.



On March 05 2010 11:42 Lysdexia wrote:
Instead of a chance to miss they should reduce the damage units do when attacking units on higher elevation. Like instead of having a 70% chance to hit you would just do 70% damage with 100% accuracy.


Apparently, the difficulty of redding has been underestimated.

Hey, guys, I just thought of this idea that will fix all of the problems. Just add damage reduction.

On March 05 2010 00:06 Teejing wrote:
just make every 2nd shot a miss and we are good to go


On March 05 2010 10:54 Teejing wrote:
1 miss every 2nd shot and done,


Yes, these are two different posts.
Anther
Profile Joined March 2010
United States87 Posts
March 05 2010 03:38 GMT
#312
I think blizzard lost sight of what's competitive randomness and what isn't. lol. x_X.
There's calculated risk...
Then there's what happened with brawl where you trip for dashing at random...
AeTheReal
Profile Joined June 2009
United States108 Posts
March 05 2010 05:02 GMT
#313
I don't really mind if Blizzard doesn't bring back the 30% miss chance, but I do think there should be something more for being on high ground. A range bonus or penalty depending on whether the ground ranged unit is firing uphill or downhill is probably a good way to go about it. For example, in a battle between marines on high ground vs low ground, the ones on high ground will have range 6 vs marines on low ground and the ones on low ground have range 4 vs marines on high ground. Marines on high ground will have 50% more range than ones on low ground when engaging in a fight. That's a fairly substantial advantage in my eyes. Melee units should probably just have one more armor when taking attacks from lower ground, or nothing at all.

I don't think a percentage damage reduction is the right direction to go especially after how damage bonuses and such are made such that you'll never have fractions anymore.

(Sorry if someone else already suggested all this, I couldn't bring myself to read the entire thread.)
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
March 05 2010 05:10 GMT
#314
On March 04 2010 19:55 StormsInJuly wrote:
Randomness has no place in starcraft, never has and never will. This change is a big improvement over the original in my opinion, and gives you more options as a defender if you can take out the units giving your opponent vision uphill

Then they need to get rid of fog of war as well.
Hello
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
March 05 2010 05:13 GMT
#315
Whaaaaaat. I didn't even realize they removed the miss chance! Please bring it back. The point of high ground is not to look pretty. It should serve an actual tactical purpose.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Vedic
Profile Joined March 2008
United States582 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-05 05:23:14
March 05 2010 05:22 GMT
#316
On March 05 2010 10:44 Chuiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2010 23:26 Xlancer wrote:
On March 04 2010 23:01 lolaloc wrote:
On March 04 2010 22:55 lololol wrote:
If they want to reintroduce miss chances then using pseudorandom distribution like some skills did in wc3, would be the best case.
For example: the chance to miss would be 10% on the first attack, 20% on the second attack, 30% on the third, e.t.c. until the unit misses an attack and then the chance will reset back to 10% and repeat the pattern.
It would still be random, but with a greatly reduced chance for lots of hits or misses in a row.

Let's spam this idea to Blizzard.

One possible counter-argument could be that units in StarCraft are now trained to project their attacks accurately as long as they have sight. Anyway, I am all for the random high ground mechanic. Defending ramps are close to non-existent in SC2 currently.


Well I was in the US Marines and I can tell you that ground elevation does not effects my weapon's accuracy at all, only distance effects it. (or not being able to see the target) So if blizzard wanted to re-introduce misses into the game, they should base it on distance not elevation. Maybe blizz could make a ramp cost low ground range units 1 range because there shots have to travel against gravity. This would give high ground a more realistic advantage.


Aiming upwards is a good deal harder than aiming downwards, this is just one reason why height has always been an advantage. But this is what it sounds like you're describing:

..snip..

Now you can clearly see how it would make it a great deal harder to hit someone who is on higher ground. This is how I've always pictured high ground in SC at least, I'm sure many people agree with me that a 40% miss rate is justified due to high ground always being an advantage.

+ Show Spoiler [tldr] +
Its just a game for fucks sake. Slap a 40% miss rate on units and call it a day.


You can't try to argue logic with real-life situations, or you'll have to argue that all units should miss merely based on range, or giving these bonuses to air units, or that units should have ammo/reload, etc..

The current implementation works best within the system. Why not argue for more creative map elements, instead of just trying to make SC2 into SCBW as hard as you can.
I tried to commit seppuku, but I accidentally committed bukkake.
DefMatrixUltra
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada1992 Posts
March 05 2010 05:25 GMT
#317
On March 05 2010 14:22 Vedic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2010 10:44 Chuiu wrote:
On March 04 2010 23:26 Xlancer wrote:
On March 04 2010 23:01 lolaloc wrote:
On March 04 2010 22:55 lololol wrote:
If they want to reintroduce miss chances then using pseudorandom distribution like some skills did in wc3, would be the best case.
For example: the chance to miss would be 10% on the first attack, 20% on the second attack, 30% on the third, e.t.c. until the unit misses an attack and then the chance will reset back to 10% and repeat the pattern.
It would still be random, but with a greatly reduced chance for lots of hits or misses in a row.

Let's spam this idea to Blizzard.

One possible counter-argument could be that units in StarCraft are now trained to project their attacks accurately as long as they have sight. Anyway, I am all for the random high ground mechanic. Defending ramps are close to non-existent in SC2 currently.


Well I was in the US Marines and I can tell you that ground elevation does not effects my weapon's accuracy at all, only distance effects it. (or not being able to see the target) So if blizzard wanted to re-introduce misses into the game, they should base it on distance not elevation. Maybe blizz could make a ramp cost low ground range units 1 range because there shots have to travel against gravity. This would give high ground a more realistic advantage.


Aiming upwards is a good deal harder than aiming downwards, this is just one reason why height has always been an advantage. But this is what it sounds like you're describing:

..snip..

Now you can clearly see how it would make it a great deal harder to hit someone who is on higher ground. This is how I've always pictured high ground in SC at least, I'm sure many people agree with me that a 40% miss rate is justified due to high ground always being an advantage.

+ Show Spoiler [tldr] +
Its just a game for fucks sake. Slap a 40% miss rate on units and call it a day.


You can't try to argue logic with real-life situations, or you'll have to argue that all units should miss merely based on range, or giving these bonuses to air units, or that units should have ammo/reload, etc..

The current implementation works best within the system. Why not argue for more creative map elements, instead of just trying to make SC2 into SCBW as hard as you can.


Why not read his entire post? He was being facetious.
ShaperofDreams
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2492 Posts
March 05 2010 06:14 GMT
#318
I'm always expecting a smaller but still powerful defensive force to hold in SC2 and I always get surprised at how easily it breaks even with perfect positioning.

It's like you always have to scout and match/counter the enemy army to stay alive..kinda like an arms struggle...Can't just build some sunkens or sim city with perfect positioning and a few key defensive units anymore.

Maybe I'm wrong I don't have Beta.
Bitches don't know about my overlord. FUCK OFF ALDARIS I HAVE ENOUGH PYLONS. My Balls are as smooth as Eggs.
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
March 05 2010 06:20 GMT
#319
Doesn't WC3 have a system where units have a 1 in 10 chance to miss, but it only happens once every 10 attacks? Could work like that, just tweak the number a little.
Writerptrk
zealing
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada806 Posts
March 05 2010 06:33 GMT
#320
wtf...i thought this was a bug.....
Think you got lag? It took Jesus 3 days to respawn.
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