EPT-Zabestrial
Command Centers vs Depots? - Page 3
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Zabestrial
United States194 Posts
-Zabestrial | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 03 2010 07:32 Tiamat wrote: TheYango, I am talking about creating the extra CCs past 50-60 supply. Not a super early CC Then if we're going to theorycraft, let's at least stop handwaving and try to construct the scenario. Suppose you're at about 60 supply, with about 32 SCVs mining minerals. Suppose your opponent is Terran, and has about a similar number. Both of you already have mining set up in your mains and your naturals. Consequently, both of these bases are saturated. You start a Command Center in your base. Your opponent sees this and starts a Command Center in his 3rd. Both of you progress to making these into Orbital Commands. By the time they finish, you will both likely have 40+ SCVs. Your opponent transfers his SCVs to his 3rd. His SCVs start mining before you can start building a MULE, and because they're coming from saturated bases, he loses no mineral income transferring them--he strictly gains from doing this. Once he gets his Orbital Command up, he's getting the same income as you are from MULEs, plus however many SCVs he transferred. You can't really choose after the fact to lift your Orbital Command, because the distance between your main and a 3rd is far enough that even if you started it earlier, he will most likely be mining from his base before yours lands. Against a competent opponent, you should be behind. The fact is that the same emphasis on lower base counts and more main base defense means that it's more likely that mineral fields will be saturated--meaning that an opponent can gain by transferring SCVs without investing additional cost. He doesn't need to make new workers for his new base to generate more minerals. The only situation in which you should be ahead is if your opponent so completely misses your Command Center that you're able to get a cycle of MULE mining in before your opponent even transfers his SCVs to his new base (e.g. he doesn't start his CC until yours is half-done). And if your opponent is that oblivious, do you need a strategy like this to beat him? | ||
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aseq
Netherlands3977 Posts
And I don't think 3 minutes is that big of a window at all. In those 3 mins, your opponent has to: - scout you, inside of your main base, which isn't always dead easy (choke & using his energy not to scan). - focus on building up an army. You can only build a couple extra rounds of troops. - traverse the map (push if you have any tanks) and take advantage of the situation. You only have to defend your main. That is a lot to do in 3 minutes. So I think ppl with a key should test this extensively! | ||
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
Income started getting around 450 per minute once the second orbital command finishes, but that's pushing 5 minutes into the game and I haven't made any units. I literally never played terran a single time until now, so I'm not sure if I'm doing it optimally. I thought it was interesting but I welcome someone else to try. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
When is there ever perfect scouting info to construct a CC like that and it's just as possible for the player to fly the CC over to the 3rd base without much time loss. And a 3rd base makes another harass target. The opponent would have to be able to secure hold and defend a 3rd base while the SCV constructed the command center onsite. | ||
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Tiamat
United States498 Posts
On March 03 2010 08:06 TheYango wrote: Then if we're going to theorycraft, let's at least stop handwaving and try to construct the scenario. Suppose you're at about 60 supply, with about 32 SCVs mining minerals. Suppose your opponent is Terran, and has about a similar number. Both of you already have mining set up in your mains and your naturals. Consequently, both of these bases are saturated. You start a Command Center in your base. Your opponent sees this and starts a Command Center in his 3rd. Both of you progress to making these into Orbital Commands. By the time they finish, you will both likely have 40+ SCVs. Your opponent transfers his SCVs to his 3rd. His SCVs start mining before you can start building a MULE, and because they're coming from saturated bases, he loses no mineral income transferring them--he strictly gains from doing this. Once he gets his Orbital Command up, he's getting the same income as you are from MULEs, plus however many SCVs he transferred. You can't really choose after the fact to lift your Orbital Command, because the distance between your main and a 3rd is far enough that even if you started it earlier, he will most likely be mining from his base before yours lands. Against a competent opponent, you should be behind. The fact is that the same emphasis on lower base counts and more main base defense means that it's more likely that mineral fields will be saturated--meaning that an opponent can gain by transferring SCVs without investing additional cost. He doesn't need to make new workers for his new base to generate more minerals. The only situation in which you should be ahead is if your opponent so completely misses your Command Center that you're able to get a cycle of MULE mining in before your opponent even transfers his SCVs to his new base (e.g. he doesn't start his CC until yours is half-done). And if your opponent is that oblivious, do you need a strategy like this to beat him? I agree with what your saying, if the map is small, its going to be harder to pull something like this off. The type of map I had in mind was like a lost temple 4 player map, at around the 8-12 minute mark, I am sure you would have a good chance to sneak an SCV to build a CC at a far and away expo without it being scouted asap. Then as soon as it completes, you could call at lot of mules down to mine it very fast, build 6 extra SCV to try and get the gas. The gain behind this, is if you lose this expo your only out the cost of 6 SCVs and the CC, vs if you were to take out one of his expos, he loses the CC and 20+ SCVs that he has to rebuild, you get your mineral mining SCVs free because of all the CCs back home safe in your base. | ||
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Tiamat
United States498 Posts
On March 03 2010 08:11 onmach wrote: I tried it out just now. No scv, build barracks, build 1 scv waiting for barracks, orbital command, then a cc next, another cc, then orbital command on second. Income started getting around 450 per minute once the second orbital command finishes, but that's pushing 5 minutes into the game and I haven't made any units. I literally never played terran a single time until now, so I'm not sure if I'm doing it optimally. I thought it was interesting but I welcome someone else to try. I am not calling to not build any depots at all, you obivously need around 3-4 depots early game to not kill your eco. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 03 2010 08:16 TanGeng wrote: When is there ever perfect scouting info to construct a CC like that and it's just as possible for the player to fly the CC over to the 3rd base without much time loss. You don't need perfect scouting info. Because you can start mining before the Orbital Command finishes, you're ahead so long as you start your CC before the in-base CC is half-done building. That's a pretty lenient window of time. As for how long it takes for you to reach a 3rd by air, that depends on the map. The air distance to another main on Metalopolis is admittedly pretty short, but the ground distance between them makes that base impossible to defend in comparison to a normal third. Admittedly, I haven't found out how long it takes the CC to fly all the way to the actual 3rd, but I'm inclined to say it's pretty long. It could be viable on maps with close or Island 3rds like Scrap Station or Kulas Ravine. But on a map with a main-third distance like on Metalopolis or Lost Temple, I don't see the flight time being short. On March 03 2010 08:16 TanGeng wrote: And a 3rd base makes another harass target. The opponent would have to be able to secure hold and defend a 3rd base while the SCV constructed the command center onsite. This is true, though I'm admittedly taking it on assumption that with the amount of resources that the player building the OC in his base has tied up, he can't really afford that many units to harass. While he can eventually recover the cost by salvage, he still doesn't know if his opponent is going to expand or attack upon seeing the CC building in-base, he does need to prepare some sort of defense which will tie down resources. On March 03 2010 08:18 Tiamat wrote: I agree with what your saying, if the map is small, its going to be harder to pull something like this off. The type of map I had in mind was like a lost temple 4 player map, at around the 8-12 minute mark, I am sure you would have a good chance to sneak an SCV to build a CC at a far and away expo without it being scouted asap. Then as soon as it completes, you could call at lot of mules down to mine it very fast, build 6 extra SCV to try and get the gas. The gain behind this, is if you lose this expo your only out the cost of 6 SCVs and the CC, vs if you were to take out one of his expos, he loses the CC and 20+ SCVs that he has to rebuild, you get your mineral mining SCVs free because of all the CCs back home safe in your base. My point is that you shouldn't be building CCs if you don't have the express intent of using them to take a base immediately. You're not making full use of what the CC does (act as a gathering site and worker production) so it's not cost effective. Having a CC you're going to build or float to a safe base is fine, but having CCs in your base solely for the purpose of making MULEs is just silly. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On March 03 2010 07:56 wintergt wrote: Clever idea, seems absurd offhand but there is some backing for it. Main problem will be that you're lagging behind in gas because mules only mine minerals, so you'll have to spend that exra money to mass marines I guess? That is not really true, I have seen replays with 1 base (protoss) vs 2 bases (zerg), and a similar number of harvesters gave the same income. That's because saturations occurs around 20+ workers most 2 base zergs only have a few workers on each patch. One could use cmd centers upgrade them to planetary defense for their attack ability and basically have huge powerful attacking static defense walls that boost your econ with more abilities. I think maybe mid game you could probably do something like that if you heavily invest in air units or aa units or many turrets. maybe in tvz not so much in tvp as planetary defense cmd centers eat up zerglings very well. | ||
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julealgon
Brazil120 Posts
On March 03 2010 08:03 Zabestrial wrote: Dude, this would take way to long to build and would only work early game and would wipe out your money entirley. Plus how can yhou only play against the cpu? makes no sense at all unless its a hack... -Zabestrial This was for me right? The idea was to protect the ramp first and then expand to the main. By using the PF to defend, you can expand very fast and start using MULEs from the main CC. Also, yes it is a hack, I never said otherwise. | ||
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
You can wall off with your barracks and second command center. At 5 minutes, maybe there's a zealot at your door you can make a couple marines to make it go away. Every minute that goes by you're going to make a crapton more money than your opponent could ever hope for because you don't max at 24 resource units, you max at 8 mules + however many scvs you bothered to build. At some point you'll throw down 10 barracks and just use all your minerals on marines. Even if it isn't viable on normal maps, this type of play would be doubly dangerous on that one map where you can lift off to the gold minerals. Unfortunately I just don't know enough about terran to even attempt to try and make it workable. I'm not concerned about whether there is a counter to this or whether it would beat a platinum player who scouts competently. I just want to see if it is possible to literally get exponential growth if someone leaves you alone for a little while. | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
On March 03 2010 08:06 TheYango wrote: Then if we're going to theorycraft, let's at least stop handwaving and try to construct the scenario. Suppose you're at about 60 supply, with about 32 SCVs mining minerals. Suppose your opponent is Terran, and has about a similar number. Both of you already have mining set up in your mains and your naturals. Consequently, both of these bases are saturated. You start a Command Center in your base. Your opponent sees this and starts a Command Center in his 3rd. Both of you progress to making these into Orbital Commands. By the time they finish, you will both likely have 40+ SCVs. Your opponent transfers his SCVs to his 3rd. His SCVs start mining before you can start building a MULE, and because they're coming from saturated bases, he loses no mineral income transferring them--he strictly gains from doing this. Once he gets his Orbital Command up, he's getting the same income as you are from MULEs, plus however many SCVs he transferred. You can't really choose after the fact to lift your Orbital Command, because the distance between your main and a 3rd is far enough that even if you started it earlier, he will most likely be mining from his base before yours lands. Against a competent opponent, you should be behind. The fact is that the same emphasis on lower base counts and more main base defense means that it's more likely that mineral fields will be saturated--meaning that an opponent can gain by transferring SCVs without investing additional cost. He doesn't need to make new workers for his new base to generate more minerals. The only situation in which you should be ahead is if your opponent so completely misses your Command Center that you're able to get a cycle of MULE mining in before your opponent even transfers his SCVs to his new base (e.g. he doesn't start his CC until yours is half-done). And if your opponent is that oblivious, do you need a strategy like this to beat him? That sounds like your opponent is not only map hacking to have perfect information but is also reading your mind. Even if he finds out quickly that you are making another CC, he'll just assume you are going to fly it to another expo spot. In fact if it's so easy to expand, then you can do just that aswell and you break even. We have to assume some sort of deadlock where you can't just keep on endlessly expanding because more expansions will mean more places to defend and involves risk. In theory-craft extremities, if you make an expansion and your opponent knows this and uses the same money to make a superior army to kill you then you could never expand, but this obviously not true in practice, So why can't he just do the same but not float his CC off but just keep it sitting in his base? Whatever risk there is in fronting the minerals for a CC is exactly the same as making an expo, actually this is safer because still only your starting location to defend. | ||
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Tiamat
United States498 Posts
My point is that you shouldn't be building CCs if you don't have the express intent of using them to take a base immediately. You're not making full use of what the CC does (act as a gathering site and worker production) so it's not cost effective. Having a CC you're going to build or float to a safe base is fine, but having CCs in your base solely for the purpose of making MULEs is just silly.[/QUOTE] Here is my argument, we have already determined that building a OC puts you 150 minerals to the red. Is the 150 minerals worth the ability to produce "safe mineral mining units", meaning that it does not matter if you lose them out on the field because they are free. You dont have to worry about transferring scvs all the way across the map to mine, or rebuild all those SCVs if the expo gets overrun. The pros for building multiple OCs in your base - You mine minerals at a rate of 6 times faster than the other guy - You have your "Mineral mining guys" protected at all times at home, because your main base defense is protecting your CCs, so when you take a far away expo, your investing 400 minerals, not 400 + the scvs + static defense to protect it. - If you have a surplus of money you can scan pretty much where ever you want, or get bonus supply on your few depots you have. - If you miss a mule call down it does not hurt you because your CC always will be charging and there is no cooldown on mule, unlike building SCVs if you forget to queue em up you have to wait. The cons - You lose your main you lose the game - Puts you in a defensive state early/mid game - Mules are not good if your enemy does not let you build a CC to mine from. - Mules dont harvest gas (god i wish they did) | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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Zabestrial
United States194 Posts
On March 03 2010 08:31 julealgon wrote: This was for me right? The idea was to protect the ramp first and then expand to the main. By using the PF to defend, you can expand very fast and start using MULEs from the main CC. Also, yes it is a hack, I never said otherwise. Yes you can end up expanding very quickly and the PF can defend BUT... by the time you have 3 i could proably have 10-20 mutas by then. In other words: Easily countered and killed -Zabestrial | ||
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done
Germany70 Posts
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
On March 03 2010 09:00 Zabestrial wrote: Yes you can end up expanding very quickly and the PF can defend BUT... by the time you have 3 i could proably have 10-20 mutas by then. In other words: Easily countered and killed Nah. I watch mostly terran replays and I have seen plenty of top terrans who take a first expansion pretty quickly vs zerg and a second one not much later. By your reasoning this should be impossible because you'll have 20 mutas and win, but in practice it doesn't work that way. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On March 03 2010 06:06 Tiamat wrote: Unfortunately I only get to play against an AI, but I want Terran players to try and start doing this if you dont mind. - Make more CCs instead of supply depots for your food. - I had around 6 CCs when I was about to take my 3rd expand, dropped 12 mules on the new patch and my minerals went from around 1000 to 5000 in like 2 minutes. Its possible that someone very good at their macro game could take advantage of the mule, or hell even the extra supply to upgrade your 6-7 depots laying around. Use the extra money for even more barracks and CCs and it seems like a slippery slope until you get cannot mine off a patch anymore. It worked really well on the bigger maps with lots of expansions. With the free bunkers and it seems Terran still has one of the better "turtle style" defenses in the game, perhaps multiple CCs are not a bad option? The two bolded statements are contradictory. Theoretically speaking, each CC->Orbital Command pays for itself easily... in the long run. But in the short run, by making CC's you are just creating a timing window that your opponent can exploit. The more CC's you make, the more timing windows you create for your opponent. It just isn't reasonable in a fast and dirty game like Starcraft. | ||
Kinky
United States4126 Posts
On March 03 2010 08:51 Tiamat wrote: QUOTE] The pros for building multiple OCs in your base - You mine minerals at a rate of 6 times faster than the other guy - You have your "Mineral mining guys" protected at all times at home, because your main base defense is protecting your CCs, so when you take a far away expo, your investing 400 minerals, not 400 + the scvs + static defense to protect it. - If you have a surplus of money you can scan pretty much where ever you want, or get bonus supply on your few depots you have. - If you miss a mule call down it does not hurt you because your CC always will be charging and there is no cooldown on mule, unlike building SCVs if you forget to queue em up you have to wait. The cons - You lose your main you lose the game - Puts you in a defensive state early/mid game - Mules are not good if your enemy does not let you build a CC to mine from. - Mules dont harvest gas (god i wish they did) Another con is that you mine out much faster, meaning you have to expand much faster. It's basically checkmate if you end up mining out without an expo as a good player can deny any OC's from landing. You also force yourself to rely more on mineral-only units like marines/hellions, since your mineral:gas ratio is going to skyrocket. Unless I'm missing something in your logic... | ||
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Poly325
United States99 Posts
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