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Unfortunately I only get to play against an AI, but I want Terran players to try and start doing this if you dont mind.
- Make more CCs instead of supply depots for your food. -
I had around 6 CCs when I was about to take my 3rd expand, dropped 12 mules on the new patch and my minerals went from around 1000 to 5000 in like 2 minutes. Its possible that someone very good at their macro game could take advantage of the mule, or hell even the extra supply to upgrade your 6-7 depots laying around. Use the extra money for even more barracks and CCs and it seems like a slippery slope until you get cannot mine off a patch anymore. It worked really well on the bigger maps with lots of expansions.
With the free bunkers and it seems Terran still has one of the better "turtle style" defenses in the game, perhaps multiple CCs are not a bad option?
EDIT: [url blocked] <-- this is what i am talking about its a rep. I know its against AI but could it maybe work?
EDIT2 [url blocked]
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the cost to make the cc is nowhere near = to the supply you would get from the same cost in depots
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You can get youself into ugly situations because you initially invest a lot of money into CCs and they only pay off slowly (well, including supply cost I guess it pays off after the 2nd MULE). But if you manage to survive and your opponent doesn't boost his economy more than you do it should be a viable strategy.
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United States47024 Posts
Building CCs ties up too many minerals for too long without return. You spend 400 minerals, and it takes 2 MULEs to recoup that cost. In the early/midgame that leaves you too vulnerable. You're essentially 8 marines weaker in every fight until your CC finishes and 2 MULEs can get launched from it. Any competent opponent will scout it, and use that advantage to take an actual expansion, which is worth more, or to just roll over you and kill you.
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Also you will get supply-blocked because of the build time of a CC. Mules may be usefull, but I think if you go too many Mules, your bases will be mined-out in no time and you have no advantage at all because you cant spend all your minerals so quick.
I don't think CCs for depots is a good way to go, CCs are for mining and thats it.
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ima assume that the cost sare the same in SC1
1cc = 400 mins / 10 food
4depots = 400mins/32 food
doesint it speak for itself?
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how much does a mule give again? i mean total
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United States47024 Posts
On March 03 2010 06:23 MorroW wrote:
how much does a mule give again? i mean total
240
Don't forget, you also have to upgrade the CC to an Orbital Command before you can start MULEing, so it takes 2-3 MULEs actually to recover the cost. This means that it takes 3-4 minutes before you even break even. That kind of timing window for an attack is huge.
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Mule gives around 270 each mule (which is 50 energy)
Thats only 1 CC, imagine if you had 6 of those, 1620 minerals for every 50 energy you build up. That would pay for 3 of the CCs right there. I am saying its an investment for the long run. I mean lets face it, how many Terran reps have you seen where the player has floated 700 or 800 minerals in his base?
I'm just thinking that you could fly one of the CCs over to a gold patch, drop 10 or 12 Mules and mine that base out in like 5 minutes lol.
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ok so it takes 187,5 sec ~ 3 mintutes to pay off for the cc and the orbital command by pure mule
sorry to say but this takes too long time^^
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On March 03 2010 06:31 Tiamat wrote:
Thats only 1 CC, imagine if you had 6 of those, 1620 minerals for every 50 energy you build up. That would pay for 3 of the CCs right there. I am saying its an investment for the long run. I mean lets face it, how many Terran reps have you seen where the player has floated 700 or 800 minerals in his base?
That's not how starcraft works. You're forgetting about how important timing is.
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On March 03 2010 06:21 arb wrote:
ima assume that the cost sare the same in SC1
1cc = 400 mins / 10 food
4depots = 400mins/32 food
doesint it speak for itself?
Well, this was a very bad comparison I must say, since the whole point was to recoup the money with mules later on.
Something no one seemed to note was that you can use the additional CC to expand later when you can defend properly.
I really liked this idea, and I believe it has some potential indeed.
BTW, does anyone know how many trips to minerals an SCV makes for 90 + supply-build-time seconds? It may be worthwhile to use calldown supplies from time to time if the difference is not too big from the 240 minerals the MULE gives over the same 90 seconds.
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Also the MAJOR difference in SC2 vs SC1 and the Command Center can now effectively mine by itself. In SC1 you had to build SCVs to mine, thats a hidden cost.
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On March 03 2010 06:36 julealgon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 06:21 arb wrote:
ima assume that the cost sare the same in SC1
1cc = 400 mins / 10 food
4depots = 400mins/32 food
doesint it speak for itself? Well, this was a very bad comparison I must say, since the whole point was to recoup the money with mules later on. Something no one seemed to note was that you can use the additional CC to expand later when you can defend properly. I really liked this idea, and I believe it has some potential indeed. BTW, does anyone know how many trips to minerals an SCV makes for 90 + supply-build-time seconds? It may be worthwhile to use calldown supplies from time to time if the difference is not too big from the 240 minerals the MULE gives over the same 90 seconds.
That and also you can salvage any bunkers for free, to help with the window you need to defend while building the CC.
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its not gonna pay off because of u invest 550 minerals in something that will be neutral to itself in 3 minutes it will give ur enemy a window of time to expo like crazy
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Thanks guys for testing the strategy and providing feedback like the OP asked.
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A cc mines roughly at the same rate as 6 scv's and gives ~200 minerals worth of supply.(6 scv's are 6 supply and the supply it got for itself)
Basically that is 500 mins, so command centers are certainly not such a bad deal. The best thing with it is that you don't ever saturate your mineral line with mules, unless you have ~16 command centers but then you would be mining at the same rate as from 6 minerals fields at once! You could make a locust build, fly a cc over to the yellow minerals, drop a million of mules and just suck it all up in a minute!
Not saying that this would be uber awesome, just that it isn't as crazy as many of you seem to think. Basically the resources you get for it is worth all the minerals spent, but it also costs a bit of gas and it takes a bit longer to build. On the other hand it allows you to break even with your enemy with much fewer expansions and it allows you to scan like crazy.
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United States47024 Posts
So what exactly do you do if your opponent responds to you starting a CC by actually taking an expansion? You can't punish him for it because you've spent equivalent cost building a CC, and since he can improve mineral efficiency by maynarding workers to his expansion, he'll recoup it's cost before you do yours. Not to mention that he can skimp on defense because he knows you committed to a CC, while you have to put bunkers down without knowing what he'll do in response.
On March 03 2010 06:38 Tiamat wrote:
Also the MAJOR difference in SC2 vs SC1 and the Command Center can now effectively mine by itself. In SC1 you had to build SCVs to mine, thats a hidden cost.
Building an Orbital Command doesn't count as a "hidden cost", but building SCVs does?
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On March 03 2010 06:51 TheYango wrote:
So what exactly do you do if your opponent responds to you starting a CC by actually taking an expansion? You can't punish him for it because you've spent equivalent cost building a CC, and since he can improve mineral efficiency by maynarding workers to his expansion, he'll recoup it's cost before you do yours. Not to mention that he can skimp on defense because he knows you committed to a CC, while you have to put bunkers down without knowing what he'll do in response.
Considering that a cc mines roughly as good per cost as normal workers if you consider that it also provides supply, and considering that cc mining won't ever oversaturate the fields you will not get that behind from him taking another expansion. And you can just as well take an expansion if you want, if he tries to attack it just fly back with your cc...
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United States47024 Posts
On March 03 2010 06:55 Klockan3 wrote:
Considering that a cc mines roughly as good per cost as normal workers if you consider that it also provides supply, and considering that cc mining won't ever oversaturate the fields you will not get that behind from him taking another expansion. And you can just as well take an expansion if you want, if he tries to attack it just fly back with your cc...
Wait, what?
I don't see how you can say you won't be behind. Suppose you're opponent is Terran. You start your CCs at roughly equal times (yours a bit faster). When they finish, you have identical numbers of MULEs. The difference is he can split his workers among 1 more base than you because he started his CC at an expansion. His mining efficiency is better, regardless of where the MULEs are coming into play. What's more, the fact that you started the CC without knowledge of what your opponent would do to respond means that you are REQUIRED to put up defenses. But since your opponent starts his CC after yours, he has the knowledge that you can't punish him for it, so he can skimp on them. The fact that the CC provides supply isn't relevant because the CC takes so long to build that you have to build supply depots in the interim anyway.
If you choose to actually take a 3rd instead of building the CC in-base, you lose the luxury of being able to defend it easily. Your opponent isn't going to respond to that by taking an expansion--he's going to take advantage of the fact that your forces are spread too thin to defend and destroy one of your bases.
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EPT
