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United States12240 Posts
On February 12 2010 05:22 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On February 12 2010 03:47 youngblood wrote:On February 11 2010 16:45 Skyze wrote:
I personally find BW has gotten incredibly boring within the past year or two, very little variety, heavy economy play wins out 95% of the time unless you cheese it now. I only watch pro games now when they are like finals, even then I found Flash vs Movie boring as heck, really any game with flash I find boring as hell. The only games that even excite me at all these days are when up and coming players do unique things other than cookie cutter builds everygame.
Foreigner games are 100% more exciting than progames in SC right now, because they know that the opponent they are going against aren't so robotic that they can experiment and get away with things that wouldnt work vs turtling macro players like Flash. You can call people like Flash and jaedong "masters", but it doesnt make exciting games.
(When watching replays from TL.net, any replay that goes past 40 minutes I dont bother watching, why should I sit there and watch them take the whole map without any microing/harassment , only to have one big attack at the end with 30 ultras to end it. SNORE!)
SC2 wont have that happen, harassment is going to be HUGE in SC2, with things like warping, reapers/cliff climbing, those macro mechanics to boost timing pushes.. Its going to be so intense, no boring 50 minute snorefests. Micro and Macro will be 50% each, which is so important on making a better game than BW, because that gives players style, theres no style anymore in BW. I find this post very strong, the longest replay i can watch is about 15 mins at the least. I don't watch games that go over the 20min mark. I mean Life kinda goes by for that 40 mins you could doing something much more valuble than to watch a macro game. *cough*sc2 will have less macro, more micro, strat*cough*. I think it's actually a pretty interesting evolution. At first, games were all decided by macro. Then, players like Boxer emerged and showed how to maximize the potential of very small groups of units through intense micro before the macro game could ever get started. Now with the rise of players like Flash and the new map styles, it's gone back to a macro-oriented game. Inevitably, SC2 will undergo a similar evolutionary transformation. Nobody knows whether micro or macro will win in the end, or whether the game is continuing to evolve at the point where most people believe the game has been mastered (as people thought when Giyom and Boxer were dominant). how is macro style possible in a game where macro is basically pressing 2 buttons? its gonna be all micro Dependant, even a very slow player can macro when you can hotkey all your production facilities to 1 key, or even 2 keys
Macro involves more than unit production.
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On February 12 2010 07:08 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 05:41 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 05:34 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:22 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On February 12 2010 03:47 youngblood wrote:On February 11 2010 16:45 Skyze wrote:
I personally find BW has gotten incredibly boring within the past year or two, very little variety, heavy economy play wins out 95% of the time unless you cheese it now. I only watch pro games now when they are like finals, even then I found Flash vs Movie boring as heck, really any game with flash I find boring as hell. The only games that even excite me at all these days are when up and coming players do unique things other than cookie cutter builds everygame.
Foreigner games are 100% more exciting than progames in SC right now, because they know that the opponent they are going against aren't so robotic that they can experiment and get away with things that wouldnt work vs turtling macro players like Flash. You can call people like Flash and jaedong "masters", but it doesnt make exciting games.
(When watching replays from TL.net, any replay that goes past 40 minutes I dont bother watching, why should I sit there and watch them take the whole map without any microing/harassment , only to have one big attack at the end with 30 ultras to end it. SNORE!)
SC2 wont have that happen, harassment is going to be HUGE in SC2, with things like warping, reapers/cliff climbing, those macro mechanics to boost timing pushes.. Its going to be so intense, no boring 50 minute snorefests. Micro and Macro will be 50% each, which is so important on making a better game than BW, because that gives players style, theres no style anymore in BW. I find this post very strong, the longest replay i can watch is about 15 mins at the least. I don't watch games that go over the 20min mark. I mean Life kinda goes by for that 40 mins you could doing something much more valuble than to watch a macro game. *cough*sc2 will have less macro, more micro, strat*cough*. I think it's actually a pretty interesting evolution. At first, games were all decided by macro. Then, players like Boxer emerged and showed how to maximize the potential of very small groups of units through intense micro before the macro game could ever get started. Now with the rise of players like Flash and the new map styles, it's gone back to a macro-oriented game. Inevitably, SC2 will undergo a similar evolutionary transformation. Nobody knows whether micro or macro will win in the end, or whether the game is continuing to evolve at the point where most people believe the game has been mastered (as people thought when Giyom and Boxer were dominant). how is macro style possible in a game where macro is basically pressing 2 buttons? its gonna be all micro Dependant, even a very slow player can macro when you can hotkey all your production facilities to 1 key, or even 2 keys Some korean semi-pros never miss a production round, always have 1 unit queued etc. but is their macro as good as the very top pros? No. Because macro is not all about queuing units as efficiently and fast as possible ffs. thats actually absolutely wrong, but tell me what is macro about if not efficiently queuing the appropriate units? Making the right units making the correct amount of production buildings upgrading efficiently expoing at optimal times knowing when you can pump scvs for more efficient economy without having a huge risk of getting rolled over overall timing your tech etc. and I'm sure I or someone else could think of more things that also wouldn't be affected by MBS in the slightest. and just fyi. I was a huge anti-mbs person back when SC2 was announced too.
I'm not anti mbs, i actually look forward to less macro games, i feel it has made sc stale (in some ways)
however i still think the only hard thing about macro, the only thing that takes away your attention for a good chunk of time every few seconds, is the selecting each facility and tapping a button to make something, whereas the teching, making supply depots, and making the facilities takes almost no time and can be done very fast, and you're back to microing. my point is you'll need to add facilties/tech less often then you would need to macro without mbs. making the right units, well for example you can hotkey 4 buildings to hotkey 5, and 4 buildings to hotkey 6, make 1 type of unit out of one building, and another from the other (just an example). and everything else you mentioned
making the correct amount of production buildings
upgrading efficiently
expoing at optimal times
knowing when you can pump scvs for more efficient economy without having a huge risk of getting rolled over
overall timing your tech etc.
this to me doesnt essentially fall under macro (of course this is just my opinion, maybe macro actually is defined as the sum of everything) HOWEVER, in sc1, a good macro player is one who, more then anything else, makes the maximum use of his resources by queuing units efficiently, and not missing (or not being too late on) production rounds
On February 12 2010 07:02 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 05:41 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 05:34 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:22 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On February 12 2010 03:47 youngblood wrote:On February 11 2010 16:45 Skyze wrote:
I personally find BW has gotten incredibly boring within the past year or two, very little variety, heavy economy play wins out 95% of the time unless you cheese it now. I only watch pro games now when they are like finals, even then I found Flash vs Movie boring as heck, really any game with flash I find boring as hell. The only games that even excite me at all these days are when up and coming players do unique things other than cookie cutter builds everygame.
Foreigner games are 100% more exciting than progames in SC right now, because they know that the opponent they are going against aren't so robotic that they can experiment and get away with things that wouldnt work vs turtling macro players like Flash. You can call people like Flash and jaedong "masters", but it doesnt make exciting games.
(When watching replays from TL.net, any replay that goes past 40 minutes I dont bother watching, why should I sit there and watch them take the whole map without any microing/harassment , only to have one big attack at the end with 30 ultras to end it. SNORE!)
SC2 wont have that happen, harassment is going to be HUGE in SC2, with things like warping, reapers/cliff climbing, those macro mechanics to boost timing pushes.. Its going to be so intense, no boring 50 minute snorefests. Micro and Macro will be 50% each, which is so important on making a better game than BW, because that gives players style, theres no style anymore in BW. I find this post very strong, the longest replay i can watch is about 15 mins at the least. I don't watch games that go over the 20min mark. I mean Life kinda goes by for that 40 mins you could doing something much more valuble than to watch a macro game. *cough*sc2 will have less macro, more micro, strat*cough*. I think it's actually a pretty interesting evolution. At first, games were all decided by macro. Then, players like Boxer emerged and showed how to maximize the potential of very small groups of units through intense micro before the macro game could ever get started. Now with the rise of players like Flash and the new map styles, it's gone back to a macro-oriented game. Inevitably, SC2 will undergo a similar evolutionary transformation. Nobody knows whether micro or macro will win in the end, or whether the game is continuing to evolve at the point where most people believe the game has been mastered (as people thought when Giyom and Boxer were dominant). how is macro style possible in a game where macro is basically pressing 2 buttons? its gonna be all micro Dependant, even a very slow player can macro when you can hotkey all your production facilities to 1 key, or even 2 keys Some korean semi-pros never miss a production round, always have 1 unit queued etc. but is their macro as good as the very top pros? No. Because macro is not all about queuing units as efficiently and fast as possible ffs. thats actually absolutely wrong, but tell me what is macro about if not efficiently queuing the appropriate units? 1300 posts and you don't know what Macro is? You can que efficiently but still have bad macro. I bet you there will be noobs who will be really good at queuing units but don't make enough factories. Or upgrade efficiently etc..
when someone says 'Sea.Really is good at macro' do you think they mean 'he has a good build'? 'he times his upgrades well?' Thats good management, but when someone says good macro, it means he makes a fuckton of units, and he makes them fast. to do so he makes many production facilities, and is quick to queue units in them
On February 12 2010 06:32 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 05:41 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 05:34 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:22 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On February 12 2010 03:47 youngblood wrote:On February 11 2010 16:45 Skyze wrote:
I personally find BW has gotten incredibly boring within the past year or two, very little variety, heavy economy play wins out 95% of the time unless you cheese it now. I only watch pro games now when they are like finals, even then I found Flash vs Movie boring as heck, really any game with flash I find boring as hell. The only games that even excite me at all these days are when up and coming players do unique things other than cookie cutter builds everygame.
Foreigner games are 100% more exciting than progames in SC right now, because they know that the opponent they are going against aren't so robotic that they can experiment and get away with things that wouldnt work vs turtling macro players like Flash. You can call people like Flash and jaedong "masters", but it doesnt make exciting games.
(When watching replays from TL.net, any replay that goes past 40 minutes I dont bother watching, why should I sit there and watch them take the whole map without any microing/harassment , only to have one big attack at the end with 30 ultras to end it. SNORE!)
SC2 wont have that happen, harassment is going to be HUGE in SC2, with things like warping, reapers/cliff climbing, those macro mechanics to boost timing pushes.. Its going to be so intense, no boring 50 minute snorefests. Micro and Macro will be 50% each, which is so important on making a better game than BW, because that gives players style, theres no style anymore in BW. I find this post very strong, the longest replay i can watch is about 15 mins at the least. I don't watch games that go over the 20min mark. I mean Life kinda goes by for that 40 mins you could doing something much more valuble than to watch a macro game. *cough*sc2 will have less macro, more micro, strat*cough*. I think it's actually a pretty interesting evolution. At first, games were all decided by macro. Then, players like Boxer emerged and showed how to maximize the potential of very small groups of units through intense micro before the macro game could ever get started. Now with the rise of players like Flash and the new map styles, it's gone back to a macro-oriented game. Inevitably, SC2 will undergo a similar evolutionary transformation. Nobody knows whether micro or macro will win in the end, or whether the game is continuing to evolve at the point where most people believe the game has been mastered (as people thought when Giyom and Boxer were dominant). how is macro style possible in a game where macro is basically pressing 2 buttons? its gonna be all micro Dependant, even a very slow player can macro when you can hotkey all your production facilities to 1 key, or even 2 keys Some korean semi-pros never miss a production round, always have 1 unit queued etc. but is their macro as good as the very top pros? No. Because macro is not all about queuing units as efficiently and fast as possible ffs. thats actually absolutely wrong, but tell me what is macro about if not efficiently queuing the appropriate units? I think his point is that macro is mostly about the appropriateness of the units made, as he didn't mention that in what macro is not, so in the end, it is about efficiency and appropriateness, but the latter did not enter the conversation until your most recent post. But that may just be my interpretation of his post.
Well, the thing is that due to MBS, hotkey production buildings are possible. What i mean is, in sc1, you cant just do for example, 5v6t7g
thats vultures, tanks and goliaths, a good unit mix, but that'll only be making 1 of each
in sc2, (lets assume for the sake of example that there are factories, tanks, vultures and goliaths in sc2) you hotkey 2 factories with machine shops to 5, 3 factories to 6, and another 5 factories to 7
5t6g7v
and thats an army with a decent composition for you, leaving you time to micro the units you have to get the most out of them
other aspects of macro management such as supply depots, teching, expanding, take relatively MUCH less time throughout the game when compared to how much time in the game you spend macroing (given no MBS)
Again im not AGAINST mbs, AT ALL, i just dont see how there can be macro style players given an MBS system
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On February 12 2010 07:20 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 07:08 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:41 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 05:34 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:22 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On February 12 2010 03:47 youngblood wrote:On February 11 2010 16:45 Skyze wrote:
I personally find BW has gotten incredibly boring within the past year or two, very little variety, heavy economy play wins out 95% of the time unless you cheese it now. I only watch pro games now when they are like finals, even then I found Flash vs Movie boring as heck, really any game with flash I find boring as hell. The only games that even excite me at all these days are when up and coming players do unique things other than cookie cutter builds everygame.
Foreigner games are 100% more exciting than progames in SC right now, because they know that the opponent they are going against aren't so robotic that they can experiment and get away with things that wouldnt work vs turtling macro players like Flash. You can call people like Flash and jaedong "masters", but it doesnt make exciting games.
(When watching replays from TL.net, any replay that goes past 40 minutes I dont bother watching, why should I sit there and watch them take the whole map without any microing/harassment , only to have one big attack at the end with 30 ultras to end it. SNORE!)
SC2 wont have that happen, harassment is going to be HUGE in SC2, with things like warping, reapers/cliff climbing, those macro mechanics to boost timing pushes.. Its going to be so intense, no boring 50 minute snorefests. Micro and Macro will be 50% each, which is so important on making a better game than BW, because that gives players style, theres no style anymore in BW. I find this post very strong, the longest replay i can watch is about 15 mins at the least. I don't watch games that go over the 20min mark. I mean Life kinda goes by for that 40 mins you could doing something much more valuble than to watch a macro game. *cough*sc2 will have less macro, more micro, strat*cough*. I think it's actually a pretty interesting evolution. At first, games were all decided by macro. Then, players like Boxer emerged and showed how to maximize the potential of very small groups of units through intense micro before the macro game could ever get started. Now with the rise of players like Flash and the new map styles, it's gone back to a macro-oriented game. Inevitably, SC2 will undergo a similar evolutionary transformation. Nobody knows whether micro or macro will win in the end, or whether the game is continuing to evolve at the point where most people believe the game has been mastered (as people thought when Giyom and Boxer were dominant). how is macro style possible in a game where macro is basically pressing 2 buttons? its gonna be all micro Dependant, even a very slow player can macro when you can hotkey all your production facilities to 1 key, or even 2 keys Some korean semi-pros never miss a production round, always have 1 unit queued etc. but is their macro as good as the very top pros? No. Because macro is not all about queuing units as efficiently and fast as possible ffs. thats actually absolutely wrong, but tell me what is macro about if not efficiently queuing the appropriate units? Making the right units making the correct amount of production buildings upgrading efficiently expoing at optimal times knowing when you can pump scvs for more efficient economy without having a huge risk of getting rolled over overall timing your tech etc. and I'm sure I or someone else could think of more things that also wouldn't be affected by MBS in the slightest. and just fyi. I was a huge anti-mbs person back when SC2 was announced too. I'm not anti mbs, i actually look forward to less macro games, i feel it has made sc stale (in some ways) however i still think the only hard thing about macro, the only thing that takes away your attention for a good chunk of time every few seconds, is the selecting each facility and tapping a button to make something, whereas the teching, making supply depots, and making the facilities takes almost no time and can be done very fast, and you're back to microing. my point is you'll need to add facilties/tech less often then you would need to macro without mbs. making the right units, well for example you can hotkey 4 buildings to hotkey 5, and 4 buildings to hotkey 6, make 1 type of unit out of one building, and another from the other (just an example). and everything else you mentioned making the correct amount of production buildings upgrading efficiently expoing at optimal times knowing when you can pump scvs for more efficient economy without having a huge risk of getting rolled over overall timing your tech etc. this to me doesnt essentially fall under macro (of course this is just my opinion, maybe macro actually is defined as the sum of everything) HOWEVER, in sc1, a good macro player is one who, more then anything else, makes the maximum use of his resources by queuing units efficiently, and not missing (or not being too late on) production rounds Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 07:02 HazMat wrote:On February 12 2010 05:41 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 05:34 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:22 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On February 12 2010 03:47 youngblood wrote:On February 11 2010 16:45 Skyze wrote:
I personally find BW has gotten incredibly boring within the past year or two, very little variety, heavy economy play wins out 95% of the time unless you cheese it now. I only watch pro games now when they are like finals, even then I found Flash vs Movie boring as heck, really any game with flash I find boring as hell. The only games that even excite me at all these days are when up and coming players do unique things other than cookie cutter builds everygame.
Foreigner games are 100% more exciting than progames in SC right now, because they know that the opponent they are going against aren't so robotic that they can experiment and get away with things that wouldnt work vs turtling macro players like Flash. You can call people like Flash and jaedong "masters", but it doesnt make exciting games.
(When watching replays from TL.net, any replay that goes past 40 minutes I dont bother watching, why should I sit there and watch them take the whole map without any microing/harassment , only to have one big attack at the end with 30 ultras to end it. SNORE!)
SC2 wont have that happen, harassment is going to be HUGE in SC2, with things like warping, reapers/cliff climbing, those macro mechanics to boost timing pushes.. Its going to be so intense, no boring 50 minute snorefests. Micro and Macro will be 50% each, which is so important on making a better game than BW, because that gives players style, theres no style anymore in BW. I find this post very strong, the longest replay i can watch is about 15 mins at the least. I don't watch games that go over the 20min mark. I mean Life kinda goes by for that 40 mins you could doing something much more valuble than to watch a macro game. *cough*sc2 will have less macro, more micro, strat*cough*. I think it's actually a pretty interesting evolution. At first, games were all decided by macro. Then, players like Boxer emerged and showed how to maximize the potential of very small groups of units through intense micro before the macro game could ever get started. Now with the rise of players like Flash and the new map styles, it's gone back to a macro-oriented game. Inevitably, SC2 will undergo a similar evolutionary transformation. Nobody knows whether micro or macro will win in the end, or whether the game is continuing to evolve at the point where most people believe the game has been mastered (as people thought when Giyom and Boxer were dominant). how is macro style possible in a game where macro is basically pressing 2 buttons? its gonna be all micro Dependant, even a very slow player can macro when you can hotkey all your production facilities to 1 key, or even 2 keys Some korean semi-pros never miss a production round, always have 1 unit queued etc. but is their macro as good as the very top pros? No. Because macro is not all about queuing units as efficiently and fast as possible ffs. thats actually absolutely wrong, but tell me what is macro about if not efficiently queuing the appropriate units? 1300 posts and you don't know what Macro is? You can que efficiently but still have bad macro. I bet you there will be noobs who will be really good at queuing units but don't make enough factories. Or upgrade efficiently etc.. when someone says 'Sea.Really is good at macro' do you think they mean 'he has a good build'? 'he times his upgrades well?' Thats good management, but when someone says good macro, it means he makes a fuckton of units, and he makes them fast. to do so he makes many production facilities, and is quick to queue units in them
You are simply incorrect in your definition and understanding of macro, it involves much more than just queueing units at appropriate times, and if that was all that macro entailed, it would be one of the easier things in broodwar to master because its quite easy to learn to click fast.
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On February 12 2010 07:26 Response wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 07:20 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 07:08 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:41 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 05:34 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:22 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On February 12 2010 03:47 youngblood wrote:On February 11 2010 16:45 Skyze wrote:
I personally find BW has gotten incredibly boring within the past year or two, very little variety, heavy economy play wins out 95% of the time unless you cheese it now. I only watch pro games now when they are like finals, even then I found Flash vs Movie boring as heck, really any game with flash I find boring as hell. The only games that even excite me at all these days are when up and coming players do unique things other than cookie cutter builds everygame.
Foreigner games are 100% more exciting than progames in SC right now, because they know that the opponent they are going against aren't so robotic that they can experiment and get away with things that wouldnt work vs turtling macro players like Flash. You can call people like Flash and jaedong "masters", but it doesnt make exciting games.
(When watching replays from TL.net, any replay that goes past 40 minutes I dont bother watching, why should I sit there and watch them take the whole map without any microing/harassment , only to have one big attack at the end with 30 ultras to end it. SNORE!)
SC2 wont have that happen, harassment is going to be HUGE in SC2, with things like warping, reapers/cliff climbing, those macro mechanics to boost timing pushes.. Its going to be so intense, no boring 50 minute snorefests. Micro and Macro will be 50% each, which is so important on making a better game than BW, because that gives players style, theres no style anymore in BW. I find this post very strong, the longest replay i can watch is about 15 mins at the least. I don't watch games that go over the 20min mark. I mean Life kinda goes by for that 40 mins you could doing something much more valuble than to watch a macro game. *cough*sc2 will have less macro, more micro, strat*cough*. I think it's actually a pretty interesting evolution. At first, games were all decided by macro. Then, players like Boxer emerged and showed how to maximize the potential of very small groups of units through intense micro before the macro game could ever get started. Now with the rise of players like Flash and the new map styles, it's gone back to a macro-oriented game. Inevitably, SC2 will undergo a similar evolutionary transformation. Nobody knows whether micro or macro will win in the end, or whether the game is continuing to evolve at the point where most people believe the game has been mastered (as people thought when Giyom and Boxer were dominant). how is macro style possible in a game where macro is basically pressing 2 buttons? its gonna be all micro Dependant, even a very slow player can macro when you can hotkey all your production facilities to 1 key, or even 2 keys Some korean semi-pros never miss a production round, always have 1 unit queued etc. but is their macro as good as the very top pros? No. Because macro is not all about queuing units as efficiently and fast as possible ffs. thats actually absolutely wrong, but tell me what is macro about if not efficiently queuing the appropriate units? Making the right units making the correct amount of production buildings upgrading efficiently expoing at optimal times knowing when you can pump scvs for more efficient economy without having a huge risk of getting rolled over overall timing your tech etc. and I'm sure I or someone else could think of more things that also wouldn't be affected by MBS in the slightest. and just fyi. I was a huge anti-mbs person back when SC2 was announced too. I'm not anti mbs, i actually look forward to less macro games, i feel it has made sc stale (in some ways) however i still think the only hard thing about macro, the only thing that takes away your attention for a good chunk of time every few seconds, is the selecting each facility and tapping a button to make something, whereas the teching, making supply depots, and making the facilities takes almost no time and can be done very fast, and you're back to microing. my point is you'll need to add facilties/tech less often then you would need to macro without mbs. making the right units, well for example you can hotkey 4 buildings to hotkey 5, and 4 buildings to hotkey 6, make 1 type of unit out of one building, and another from the other (just an example). and everything else you mentioned making the correct amount of production buildings upgrading efficiently expoing at optimal times knowing when you can pump scvs for more efficient economy without having a huge risk of getting rolled over overall timing your tech etc. this to me doesnt essentially fall under macro (of course this is just my opinion, maybe macro actually is defined as the sum of everything) HOWEVER, in sc1, a good macro player is one who, more then anything else, makes the maximum use of his resources by queuing units efficiently, and not missing (or not being too late on) production rounds On February 12 2010 07:02 HazMat wrote:On February 12 2010 05:41 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 05:34 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:22 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On February 12 2010 03:47 youngblood wrote:On February 11 2010 16:45 Skyze wrote:
I personally find BW has gotten incredibly boring within the past year or two, very little variety, heavy economy play wins out 95% of the time unless you cheese it now. I only watch pro games now when they are like finals, even then I found Flash vs Movie boring as heck, really any game with flash I find boring as hell. The only games that even excite me at all these days are when up and coming players do unique things other than cookie cutter builds everygame.
Foreigner games are 100% more exciting than progames in SC right now, because they know that the opponent they are going against aren't so robotic that they can experiment and get away with things that wouldnt work vs turtling macro players like Flash. You can call people like Flash and jaedong "masters", but it doesnt make exciting games.
(When watching replays from TL.net, any replay that goes past 40 minutes I dont bother watching, why should I sit there and watch them take the whole map without any microing/harassment , only to have one big attack at the end with 30 ultras to end it. SNORE!)
SC2 wont have that happen, harassment is going to be HUGE in SC2, with things like warping, reapers/cliff climbing, those macro mechanics to boost timing pushes.. Its going to be so intense, no boring 50 minute snorefests. Micro and Macro will be 50% each, which is so important on making a better game than BW, because that gives players style, theres no style anymore in BW. I find this post very strong, the longest replay i can watch is about 15 mins at the least. I don't watch games that go over the 20min mark. I mean Life kinda goes by for that 40 mins you could doing something much more valuble than to watch a macro game. *cough*sc2 will have less macro, more micro, strat*cough*. I think it's actually a pretty interesting evolution. At first, games were all decided by macro. Then, players like Boxer emerged and showed how to maximize the potential of very small groups of units through intense micro before the macro game could ever get started. Now with the rise of players like Flash and the new map styles, it's gone back to a macro-oriented game. Inevitably, SC2 will undergo a similar evolutionary transformation. Nobody knows whether micro or macro will win in the end, or whether the game is continuing to evolve at the point where most people believe the game has been mastered (as people thought when Giyom and Boxer were dominant). how is macro style possible in a game where macro is basically pressing 2 buttons? its gonna be all micro Dependant, even a very slow player can macro when you can hotkey all your production facilities to 1 key, or even 2 keys Some korean semi-pros never miss a production round, always have 1 unit queued etc. but is their macro as good as the very top pros? No. Because macro is not all about queuing units as efficiently and fast as possible ffs. thats actually absolutely wrong, but tell me what is macro about if not efficiently queuing the appropriate units? 1300 posts and you don't know what Macro is? You can que efficiently but still have bad macro. I bet you there will be noobs who will be really good at queuing units but don't make enough factories. Or upgrade efficiently etc.. when someone says 'Sea.Really is good at macro' do you think they mean 'he has a good build'? 'he times his upgrades well?' Thats good management, but when someone says good macro, it means he makes a fuckton of units, and he makes them fast. to do so he makes many production facilities, and is quick to queue units in them You are simply incorrect in your definition and understanding of macro, it involves much more than just queueing units at appropriate times, and if that was all that macro entailed, it would be one of the easier things in broodwar to master because its quite easy to learn to click fast.
Ok, I'm wrong then, but what does make a 'macro player' then? especially in terms of sc2, as we know it now, what would make a macro player? and what defines a player as a macro player in sc1?
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Wish the music didn't remind me of WoW... but sweet sc2 
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United States12240 Posts
On February 12 2010 07:32 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 07:26 Response wrote:On February 12 2010 07:20 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 07:08 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:41 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 05:34 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:22 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On February 12 2010 03:47 youngblood wrote:On February 11 2010 16:45 Skyze wrote:
I personally find BW has gotten incredibly boring within the past year or two, very little variety, heavy economy play wins out 95% of the time unless you cheese it now. I only watch pro games now when they are like finals, even then I found Flash vs Movie boring as heck, really any game with flash I find boring as hell. The only games that even excite me at all these days are when up and coming players do unique things other than cookie cutter builds everygame.
Foreigner games are 100% more exciting than progames in SC right now, because they know that the opponent they are going against aren't so robotic that they can experiment and get away with things that wouldnt work vs turtling macro players like Flash. You can call people like Flash and jaedong "masters", but it doesnt make exciting games.
(When watching replays from TL.net, any replay that goes past 40 minutes I dont bother watching, why should I sit there and watch them take the whole map without any microing/harassment , only to have one big attack at the end with 30 ultras to end it. SNORE!)
SC2 wont have that happen, harassment is going to be HUGE in SC2, with things like warping, reapers/cliff climbing, those macro mechanics to boost timing pushes.. Its going to be so intense, no boring 50 minute snorefests. Micro and Macro will be 50% each, which is so important on making a better game than BW, because that gives players style, theres no style anymore in BW. I find this post very strong, the longest replay i can watch is about 15 mins at the least. I don't watch games that go over the 20min mark. I mean Life kinda goes by for that 40 mins you could doing something much more valuble than to watch a macro game. *cough*sc2 will have less macro, more micro, strat*cough*. I think it's actually a pretty interesting evolution. At first, games were all decided by macro. Then, players like Boxer emerged and showed how to maximize the potential of very small groups of units through intense micro before the macro game could ever get started. Now with the rise of players like Flash and the new map styles, it's gone back to a macro-oriented game. Inevitably, SC2 will undergo a similar evolutionary transformation. Nobody knows whether micro or macro will win in the end, or whether the game is continuing to evolve at the point where most people believe the game has been mastered (as people thought when Giyom and Boxer were dominant). how is macro style possible in a game where macro is basically pressing 2 buttons? its gonna be all micro Dependant, even a very slow player can macro when you can hotkey all your production facilities to 1 key, or even 2 keys Some korean semi-pros never miss a production round, always have 1 unit queued etc. but is their macro as good as the very top pros? No. Because macro is not all about queuing units as efficiently and fast as possible ffs. thats actually absolutely wrong, but tell me what is macro about if not efficiently queuing the appropriate units? Making the right units making the correct amount of production buildings upgrading efficiently expoing at optimal times knowing when you can pump scvs for more efficient economy without having a huge risk of getting rolled over overall timing your tech etc. and I'm sure I or someone else could think of more things that also wouldn't be affected by MBS in the slightest. and just fyi. I was a huge anti-mbs person back when SC2 was announced too. I'm not anti mbs, i actually look forward to less macro games, i feel it has made sc stale (in some ways) however i still think the only hard thing about macro, the only thing that takes away your attention for a good chunk of time every few seconds, is the selecting each facility and tapping a button to make something, whereas the teching, making supply depots, and making the facilities takes almost no time and can be done very fast, and you're back to microing. my point is you'll need to add facilties/tech less often then you would need to macro without mbs. making the right units, well for example you can hotkey 4 buildings to hotkey 5, and 4 buildings to hotkey 6, make 1 type of unit out of one building, and another from the other (just an example). and everything else you mentioned making the correct amount of production buildings upgrading efficiently expoing at optimal times knowing when you can pump scvs for more efficient economy without having a huge risk of getting rolled over overall timing your tech etc. this to me doesnt essentially fall under macro (of course this is just my opinion, maybe macro actually is defined as the sum of everything) HOWEVER, in sc1, a good macro player is one who, more then anything else, makes the maximum use of his resources by queuing units efficiently, and not missing (or not being too late on) production rounds On February 12 2010 07:02 HazMat wrote:On February 12 2010 05:41 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 05:34 Puosu wrote:On February 12 2010 05:22 TheAntZ wrote:On February 12 2010 03:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:On February 12 2010 03:47 youngblood wrote:On February 11 2010 16:45 Skyze wrote:
I personally find BW has gotten incredibly boring within the past year or two, very little variety, heavy economy play wins out 95% of the time unless you cheese it now. I only watch pro games now when they are like finals, even then I found Flash vs Movie boring as heck, really any game with flash I find boring as hell. The only games that even excite me at all these days are when up and coming players do unique things other than cookie cutter builds everygame.
Foreigner games are 100% more exciting than progames in SC right now, because they know that the opponent they are going against aren't so robotic that they can experiment and get away with things that wouldnt work vs turtling macro players like Flash. You can call people like Flash and jaedong "masters", but it doesnt make exciting games.
(When watching replays from TL.net, any replay that goes past 40 minutes I dont bother watching, why should I sit there and watch them take the whole map without any microing/harassment , only to have one big attack at the end with 30 ultras to end it. SNORE!)
SC2 wont have that happen, harassment is going to be HUGE in SC2, with things like warping, reapers/cliff climbing, those macro mechanics to boost timing pushes.. Its going to be so intense, no boring 50 minute snorefests. Micro and Macro will be 50% each, which is so important on making a better game than BW, because that gives players style, theres no style anymore in BW. I find this post very strong, the longest replay i can watch is about 15 mins at the least. I don't watch games that go over the 20min mark. I mean Life kinda goes by for that 40 mins you could doing something much more valuble than to watch a macro game. *cough*sc2 will have less macro, more micro, strat*cough*. I think it's actually a pretty interesting evolution. At first, games were all decided by macro. Then, players like Boxer emerged and showed how to maximize the potential of very small groups of units through intense micro before the macro game could ever get started. Now with the rise of players like Flash and the new map styles, it's gone back to a macro-oriented game. Inevitably, SC2 will undergo a similar evolutionary transformation. Nobody knows whether micro or macro will win in the end, or whether the game is continuing to evolve at the point where most people believe the game has been mastered (as people thought when Giyom and Boxer were dominant). how is macro style possible in a game where macro is basically pressing 2 buttons? its gonna be all micro Dependant, even a very slow player can macro when you can hotkey all your production facilities to 1 key, or even 2 keys Some korean semi-pros never miss a production round, always have 1 unit queued etc. but is their macro as good as the very top pros? No. Because macro is not all about queuing units as efficiently and fast as possible ffs. thats actually absolutely wrong, but tell me what is macro about if not efficiently queuing the appropriate units? 1300 posts and you don't know what Macro is? You can que efficiently but still have bad macro. I bet you there will be noobs who will be really good at queuing units but don't make enough factories. Or upgrade efficiently etc.. when someone says 'Sea.Really is good at macro' do you think they mean 'he has a good build'? 'he times his upgrades well?' Thats good management, but when someone says good macro, it means he makes a fuckton of units, and he makes them fast. to do so he makes many production facilities, and is quick to queue units in them You are simply incorrect in your definition and understanding of macro, it involves much more than just queueing units at appropriate times, and if that was all that macro entailed, it would be one of the easier things in broodwar to master because its quite easy to learn to click fast. Ok, I'm wrong then, but what does make a 'macro player' then? especially in terms of sc2, as we know it now, what would make a macro player? and what defines a player as a macro player in sc1?
Your definition isn't completely off the mark, actually. Micromanagement is controlling a small number of units but maximizing their effectiveness through intelligent control. Macromanagement is therefore maximizing the effectiveness of your resources through intelligent planning. It's easy to see when a player is microing well, because they're dodging storms, lifting away from scarabs, dancing around melee units. It's quite obvious. It's only obvious when a player has good macro that you see frequently very large numbers of units, but that doesn't tell the whole story.
A good macro player excels at reading the situation and using his resources wisely. It takes very good decision-making skills to know whether to push the attack, sit on an advantage, increase pressure, tech, develop additional production structures and supply, or expand. All of these impact the player's financial situation. It's much more involved than making sure your resources stay as close to zero as possible, and in fact that's not what you want to do at all in some cases.
It's a rather vague definition to be sure, but no more vague than micro really. A macro player in SC2 would carry the same characteristics.
EDIT: It also doesn't help that people will invariably say "Flash is macroing really well" when they see large numbers of units under his control. Typically, that only occurs rather late into the game, and is a result of his planning more than his ability to simply press buttons. Without proper planning, he wouldn't have the structures or income necessary to have "good macro" as defined by that misleading statement.
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Just wondering, what is the 2 3 4 5 betacon picture for? it seems shocking enough to warrant no explanation.
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On February 12 2010 07:52 PGWodehouse wrote:
Just wondering, what is the 2 3 4 5 betacon picture for? it seems shocking enough to warrant no explanation. It's just an image a community member cooked up to represent how close we are to beta. There's no special information to derive from it.
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United States12240 Posts
On February 12 2010 07:52 PGWodehouse wrote:
Just wondering, what is the 2 3 4 5 betacon picture for? it seems shocking enough to warrant no explanation.
It's fanmade, but if you're wondering what it's in reference to... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEFCON
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man this isnt that big of a news for ppl that dont got a key like me (FUCKING PPL WITH KEYS :D) but whatever atleast we can watch em play =/
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On February 12 2010 08:00 r4j2ill wrote:
man this isnt that big of a news for ppl that dont got a key like me (FUCKING PPL WITH KEYS :D) but whatever atleast we can watch em play =/
are you fucking people with keys?
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On February 12 2010 09:13 Lobbo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 08:00 r4j2ill wrote:
man this isnt that big of a news for ppl that dont got a key like me (FUCKING PPL WITH KEYS :D) but whatever atleast we can watch em play =/ are you fucking people with keys?
I would
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I would think Sea.Really is really good at adding extra factories and expanding when he has extra money.
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TheAntz, you are wrong about how MBS works. If you hotkeyed 2 factories to #5 then hit 5t, you'd only make 1 tank. You'd have to hit 5tt to make two. Say you hotkeyed 5 factories to #6, to get a good unit mix you would have to hit 5vvvtt, you'd get 3 vults and 2 tanks. Sure, it's a lot easier than in SC1, but because macro is so much easier to do it makes decision making so much more important, you have to be so tight with expansion timing and other macro aspects not directly related to actually making units like adding factories at the right time, upgrade timing etc. That's what will distinguish the gosu's from the chobo's
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BEST BIRTHDAY PRESENT EVER
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On February 12 2010 10:13 nataziel wrote:
TheAntz, you are wrong about how MBS works. If you hotkeyed 2 factories to #5 then hit 5t, you'd only make 1 tank. You'd have to hit 5tt to make two. Say you hotkeyed 5 factories to #6, to get a good unit mix you would have to hit 5vvvtt, you'd get 3 vults and 2 tanks. Sure, it's a lot easier than in SC1, but because macro is so much easier to do it makes decision making so much more important, you have to be so tight with expansion timing and other macro aspects not directly related to actually making units like adding factories at the right time, upgrade timing etc. That's what will distinguish the gosu's from the chobo's
No you're wrong. Unless mentioned otherwise, when you select X amount of the same buildings and click the tank icon Y times it will produce X*Y amount of tanks. Its the same as Wc3.
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United States12240 Posts
On February 12 2010 14:34 Saturnize wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 10:13 nataziel wrote:
TheAntz, you are wrong about how MBS works. If you hotkeyed 2 factories to #5 then hit 5t, you'd only make 1 tank. You'd have to hit 5tt to make two. Say you hotkeyed 5 factories to #6, to get a good unit mix you would have to hit 5vvvtt, you'd get 3 vults and 2 tanks. Sure, it's a lot easier than in SC1, but because macro is so much easier to do it makes decision making so much more important, you have to be so tight with expansion timing and other macro aspects not directly related to actually making units like adding factories at the right time, upgrade timing etc. That's what will distinguish the gosu's from the chobo's No you're wrong. Unless mentioned otherwise, when you select X amount of the same buildings and click the tank icon Y times it will produce X*Y amount of tanks. Its the same as Wc3.
Except they've been pretty specific about how that's exactly how it will differ from War3.
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Fawk ja!!!
Welp, time to get a new PC so my beta key isn't wasted!!!
Day[9], I want 1v1 in SC2!!! xD <3 xoxo
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On February 12 2010 16:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 14:34 Saturnize wrote:On February 12 2010 10:13 nataziel wrote:
TheAntz, you are wrong about how MBS works. If you hotkeyed 2 factories to #5 then hit 5t, you'd only make 1 tank. You'd have to hit 5tt to make two. Say you hotkeyed 5 factories to #6, to get a good unit mix you would have to hit 5vvvtt, you'd get 3 vults and 2 tanks. Sure, it's a lot easier than in SC1, but because macro is so much easier to do it makes decision making so much more important, you have to be so tight with expansion timing and other macro aspects not directly related to actually making units like adding factories at the right time, upgrade timing etc. That's what will distinguish the gosu's from the chobo's No you're wrong. Unless mentioned otherwise, when you select X amount of the same buildings and click the tank icon Y times it will produce X*Y amount of tanks. Its the same as Wc3. Except they've been pretty specific about how that's exactly how it will differ from War3.
Ouch!
And yes, nataziel is correct.
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EPT
