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On December 22 2009 04:38 Severedevil wrote:
This is documented proof that Sirlin knows nothing about RTS. What the fuck is 'maximum useful APM'? It's a pretend, bullshit, incoherent concept. Yes, you could arbitrarily impose Fighting Game Rules on Starcraft, so that every time you give an order or move the screen, you have to wait .2 to .5 seconds before you can do anything else. You could purposefully fuck up the interface for no reason at all, just so the phrase 'maximum useful APM' isn't Sirlin's worthless attempt to feign relevance.
You're confusing terms. He said Maximum Useful APM, not Maximum Usable APM. He isn't suggesting some kind of delay between commands. Rather, he's refering to the threshold where an increase in APM isn't useful. In a hypothetical situation where you're microing and macroing perfectly, any increase in APM would be pointless spamming that wouldn't improve your game at all. This threshold is fairly high in StarCraft, and what Sirlin means is that lower it would make it more accessible to a wider audience. Part of the way to do that is to make units behave more intelligently (Like the new Zergling Micro and automine) or through interface improvements (Like MBS).
I don't know where you got this idea of a .5 second delay between commands, but I don't think anybody is suggesting that.
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Also, Sirlin is an idiot for thinking we should trust subconscious knowledge. I'm sure Sirlin would love to be put in jail for fraud based on the testimony of an expert that couldn't even say what he thought made him think Sirlin was guilty.
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On December 21 2009 20:08 Boblion wrote:
Sirlin has no clue about Bw or competitive RTS.
I don't want to be rude but i also think that he is an ignorant idiot.
QFT
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Also, who is this Zileas guy that supposedly invented micro? I ran into his name yesterday on the High Templar page on battle.net:
"Can you see the High Templar in this picture? In this game, top ranked Protoss player Zileas hides a High Templar behind the trees to the left of the Zealot. From this location he can use Psionic Storm without giving away his position."
http://classic.battle.net/scc/protoss/units/templar.shtml
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On December 22 2009 12:02 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Also, who is this Zileas guy that supposedly invented micro? I ran into his name yesterday on the High Templar page on battle.net: "Can you see the High Templar in this picture? In this game, top ranked Protoss player Zileas hides a High Templar behind the trees to the left of the Zealot. From this location he can use Psionic Storm without giving away his position." http://classic.battle.net/scc/protoss/units/templar.shtml
Note: Summary is from personal recollection and may be 100% inaccurate/biased.
Well his real name is Tom Cadwell. He used to be a "good" player (known for shuttle/reaver micro iirc). I use the term "good" loosely because by today's standards he would probably be D ranked. Because of his fame as a good player (??) he ended up getting employed by blizzard for awhile for whatever reason. At some point he quit blizzard and worked for Ethermoon Entertainment which set out to make Strifeshadow which was supposed to be the ultimate competitive RTS or something (http://www.ethermoon.com/bios/zileas-bio.phtml). Such grand ambitions... such abject failure. Some matches were played and written about on battlereports.com, but overall the game and company didn't make it. After that he started working for Riot Games, helping develop League of Legends (a dota-clone).
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So I read almost every reply in this thread (admittedly not every single one, but at least 85%) and I couldn't find a single post telling me why it is that people are against some of these enhancements to the UI. Could someone fill me in? It seems reasonable to me to use any advancement in the speed of computers to put things into the game that would have gone in the original if they had had the capacity to do so, but I also feel that I must be missing some sort of information given the firm opposition I have read in this post.
I'm relatively new to the TL/competitive BW community, (although I have been playing casually for a very long time) and must have just missed all of this debate on MBS that has been referenced so much. Sorry if someone already layed out the argument here and I missed it.
Also I have no idea who this Sirlin is, but I have learned today that he is apparently a huge tool.
TL;DR: I missed it: why is everyone so opposed to this stuff?
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it is inevitable that sc2 will have a lower skill ceiling than sc1
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On December 22 2009 12:11 quiong wrote:
Note: Summary is from personal recollection and may be 100% inaccurate/biased.
Well his real name is Tom Cadwell. He used to be a "good" player (known for shuttle/reaver micro iirc). I use the term "good" loosely because by today's standards he would probably be D ranked. Because of his fame as a good player (??) he ended up getting employed by blizzard for awhile for whatever reason. At some point he quit blizzard and worked for Ethermoon Entertainment which set out to make Strifeshadow which was supposed to be the ultimate competitive RTS or something (http://www.ethermoon.com/bios/zileas-bio.phtml). Such grand ambitions... such abject failure. Some matches were played and written about on battlereports.com, but overall the game and company didn't make it. After that he started working for Riot Games, helping develop League of Legends (a dota-clone).
He won the brood war beta tournament and he was the best player during his prime so show some respect.
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The idea that any one person invented such an obvious concept is ludicrous, I remember my friends and I 'inventing' micro in C&C multiplayer years before SC came out. Focus fire, formations to maximize fire power and dancing injured units are things most players come up with. I remember people microing Flash tanks in Total Annihilation, driving in circles around the bigger tanks, outpacing their turret rotation, again before SC even existed.
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On December 22 2009 12:32 PobTheCad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 12:11 quiong wrote:
Note: Summary is from personal recollection and may be 100% inaccurate/biased.
Well his real name is Tom Cadwell. He used to be a "good" player (known for shuttle/reaver micro iirc). I use the term "good" loosely because by today's standards he would probably be D ranked. Because of his fame as a good player (??) he ended up getting employed by blizzard for awhile for whatever reason. At some point he quit blizzard and worked for Ethermoon Entertainment which set out to make Strifeshadow which was supposed to be the ultimate competitive RTS or something (http://www.ethermoon.com/bios/zileas-bio.phtml). Such grand ambitions... such abject failure. Some matches were played and written about on battlereports.com, but overall the game and company didn't make it. After that he started working for Riot Games, helping develop League of Legends (a dota-clone). He won the brood war beta tournament and he was the best player during his prime so show some respect.
Ok, first of all, I'm free to respect whomever I choose. But just in case it worries you, I assure you that Zileas doesn't give a crap whether I respect him or not, since I'm a nobody.
I'll grant you that my little summary there did not paint a rosy picture for Zileas. You've managed to detect my tone of slight disdain.
Sure, he was good during his prime, which is why Blizzard hired him in the first place.
But I don't think Zileas contributed much to the SC/BW community.
- He basically abandoned Starcraft at a time when the game was trying to find it's place as a competitive e-sport.
- Saw Starcraft as a flawed game and set out to make Strifeshadow, which was supposed to supplant Starcraft as the holy grail of competitive RTS
- Strifeshadow had no AI or single-player campaign, so for their game to be successful they were basically hoping to draw away the Starcraft fanbase
- In pretty much every Strifeshadow interview, they basically boast about how Strifeshadow is better in every way. While it's not directly starcraft-bashing, I personally find it difficult to read the interviews.
- Abandoned Strifeshadow as well. Don't know what happened there really, but the game didn't live up to the hype and people stopped caring/playing.
- Now works on League of Legends. Of course, any controversies with LoL is not Mr. Zilea's fault personally, so his current job is irrelevant to the topic.
TL;DR: Zileas started as a SC player like any other. But because he was good, he had some fame and influence. He found faults with the game and abandoned it, tried to create a new game designed specifically to suck away SC fans. I'm personally glad that today, SC is alive and doing well. Zilea's dream for SC is not Boxer's dream.
Oh, he also wrote some SC strategy guides. They're pretty hilarious to read. Obviously they're extremely dated now, but this is not his fault of course.
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On December 22 2009 11:50 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 04:38 Severedevil wrote:
This is documented proof that Sirlin knows nothing about RTS. What the fuck is 'maximum useful APM'? It's a pretend, bullshit, incoherent concept. Yes, you could arbitrarily impose Fighting Game Rules on Starcraft, so that every time you give an order or move the screen, you have to wait .2 to .5 seconds before you can do anything else. You could purposefully fuck up the interface for no reason at all, just so the phrase 'maximum useful APM' isn't Sirlin's worthless attempt to feign relevance. You're confusing terms. He said Maximum Useful APM, not Maximum Usable APM. He isn't suggesting some kind of delay between commands. Rather, he's refering to the threshold where an increase in APM isn't useful. In a hypothetical situation where you're microing and macroing perfectly, any increase in APM would be pointless spamming that wouldn't improve your game at all. This threshold is fairly high in StarCraft, and what Sirlin means is that lower it would make it more accessible to a wider audience. Part of the way to do that is to make units behave more intelligently (Like the new Zergling Micro and automine) or through interface improvements (Like MBS).
If you put Flash (375+ APM), Nada (375+ APM,) Casy (375+ APM,) and Light (375+ APM) on a team melee team 1500+ APM, they still wouldn't be at the "maximum useful APM cap." The concept is incredibly stupid because not only are the vast majority of Starcraft players not there, but not even A rank players or B team players or S class players or four S class players on team melee on a slowest speed game have "maximum useful APM."
Sirlin wrote:
Someone can make this argument, but I disagree with it. What these players are really saying is that they want a skill test in the game, which is fair enough, but they are also demanding that the test of skill be a specific skill test that they have all mastered. I think that's not only greedy and self-centred, but short sighted ― there are many ways to test a player's skill in a game like StarCraft, so why does it have to be a test of your ability to manipulate the interface?
Because Starcraft is a game that involves mechanical skill. If Sirlin had his way, Jaedong would be unable to five-pool D+ players to death. News flash: Starcraft is not a pure strategy game. Seriously, "players who think Starcraft II should have mechanical skill have all mastered the interface." Yeah, all TL members have A-class mechanics.
Hell, if Sirlin was in charge of things, Backho would lose to the majority of D- zergs on ICCUP.
tl;dr: Sirlin has no idea what the fuck he's talking about.
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On December 22 2009 11:50 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 04:38 Severedevil wrote:
This is documented proof that Sirlin knows nothing about RTS. What the fuck is 'maximum useful APM'? It's a pretend, bullshit, incoherent concept. Yes, you could arbitrarily impose Fighting Game Rules on Starcraft, so that every time you give an order or move the screen, you have to wait .2 to .5 seconds before you can do anything else. You could purposefully fuck up the interface for no reason at all, just so the phrase 'maximum useful APM' isn't Sirlin's worthless attempt to feign relevance. You're confusing terms. He said Maximum Useful APM, not Maximum Usable APM. He isn't suggesting some kind of delay between commands. Rather, he's refering to the threshold where an increase in APM isn't useful. In a hypothetical situation where you're microing and macroing perfectly, any increase in APM would be pointless spamming that wouldn't improve your game at all. This threshold is fairly high in StarCraft, and what Sirlin means is that lower it would make it more accessible to a wider audience. Part of the way to do that is to make units behave more intelligently (Like the new Zergling Micro and automine) or through interface improvements (Like MBS).
Exactly. This is also what makes me so angry about his reasoning. The whole point is that the "Maximum useful APM" is supposed to be an unreachable goal. It's supposed to be at least twice as high as what any human can perform. This makes time a resource in the game. Since you APM and attention can't be everywhere and do everything you want in the mid/lategame you will have to prioritize when you macro, which battles to focus on etc etc. THAT is a huge part of the skill that is Starcraft and that just went right past Sirlins face without him even blinking.
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the thing that makes me really mad whenever this topic comes up is when the point is made "but it's a real time strategy game! its about strategy"
seriously, the logic is so fucking horrid. 'starcraft is an rts, but starcraft isnt enough of an rts, lets make starcraft more rts'. the genre comes last. i don't care what sirlin wants to call it, what box he wants to put it into. you don't assign a game a genre and then push it around so it fits your conception of that genre.
strategy is a component of starcraft. just becuase the word is in some description of a family of games somebody arbitrarily places starcraft in doesn't mean it should suddenly become the most important point of the game or any point at all for that matter. if strategy is not important enough then simply don't call it an rts, don't change the game!
starcraft is execution heavy.
starcraft is an rts?
rts' should not be execution heavy??
starcraft would be better if it wasnt execution heavy???
ok sirlin, you've made it clear what you think is ideal for an rts. fine. starcraft is not an rts then. kindly fuck off?
mad, mad, mad. Z_Z
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He vastly oversimplifies the unique balance and issues of Starcraft, but he's just trying to make a point... Ah well...
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On December 22 2009 03:08 TeWy wrote:The real good point he has made and what should we argue about is this imo: Show nested quote + What these players are really saying is that they want a skill test in the game, which is fair enough, but they are also demanding that the test of skill be a specific skill test that they have all mastered. I think that's not only greedy and self-centred, but short sighted
It isn't a good point at all. He assumes that people advocate a difficult interface because they want there to be some skill involved in playing. That seems reasonable to me. But he also assumes that they want this 'test of skill' specifically because it's one they have already mastered. Why should this be? Why can't they prefer this just because it appeals to them? I am a godawful starcraft player and I would rather the interface remain unchanged. The ad-hominem at the end just looks like an attempt to villanize the high level players that (presumably) disagree with him.
If preferring a complex interface to increase the skill required to win is short-sighted, then what is the baseless assumption that this preference is advocated from a position of greed?
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On December 22 2009 14:41 DrainX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 11:50 ComradeDover wrote:On December 22 2009 04:38 Severedevil wrote:
This is documented proof that Sirlin knows nothing about RTS. What the fuck is 'maximum useful APM'? It's a pretend, bullshit, incoherent concept. Yes, you could arbitrarily impose Fighting Game Rules on Starcraft, so that every time you give an order or move the screen, you have to wait .2 to .5 seconds before you can do anything else. You could purposefully fuck up the interface for no reason at all, just so the phrase 'maximum useful APM' isn't Sirlin's worthless attempt to feign relevance. You're confusing terms. He said Maximum Useful APM, not Maximum Usable APM. He isn't suggesting some kind of delay between commands. Rather, he's refering to the threshold where an increase in APM isn't useful. In a hypothetical situation where you're microing and macroing perfectly, any increase in APM would be pointless spamming that wouldn't improve your game at all. This threshold is fairly high in StarCraft, and what Sirlin means is that lower it would make it more accessible to a wider audience. Part of the way to do that is to make units behave more intelligently (Like the new Zergling Micro and automine) or through interface improvements (Like MBS). Exactly. This is also what makes me so angry about his reasoning. The whole point is that the "Maximum useful APM" is supposed to be an unreachable goal. It's supposed to be at least twice as high as what any human can perform. This makes time a resource in the game. Since you APM and attention can't be everywhere and do everything you want in the mid/lategame you will have to prioritize when you macro, which battles to focus on etc etc. THAT is a huge part of the skill that is Starcraft and that just went right past Sirlins face without him even blinking.
Sirlin aknowledged the fact that SC and SC2 will have different way of testing the skill of the player, he is just "wondering" why so many SC players want to keep having them in SC2 rather than fresh new ones based on a better interface.
Realize that even in a game like War3, kind of slow and macroless (true for a lot of MU) compared to SC and essentialy based on micro, Grubby and particulary Moon have been dominating the scene like no one in SC has ever been able to do so. Maybe with MBS and automine people will be able to focus their attention on more battles (it was nothing to do with the maximum unit selection, whatever), but why would it be necessarily bad ?
People wouldn't twiddle their thumbs, they will just focus their attention on different things, the maximum useful apm will remain unreachable. In the end what would differentiate the skill of the players will still be their multitasking and their macro/micro.
By the way, the notion itself of "maximum useful APM" is a non-sense, every move you make in a RTS is based on a certain anticipation thus probability, and those probabilities change each +epsilon time, the maximum useful APM is INFINITE, no matter what the RTS is.
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On December 22 2009 15:32 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 14:41 DrainX wrote:On December 22 2009 11:50 ComradeDover wrote:On December 22 2009 04:38 Severedevil wrote:
This is documented proof that Sirlin knows nothing about RTS. What the fuck is 'maximum useful APM'? It's a pretend, bullshit, incoherent concept. Yes, you could arbitrarily impose Fighting Game Rules on Starcraft, so that every time you give an order or move the screen, you have to wait .2 to .5 seconds before you can do anything else. You could purposefully fuck up the interface for no reason at all, just so the phrase 'maximum useful APM' isn't Sirlin's worthless attempt to feign relevance. You're confusing terms. He said Maximum Useful APM, not Maximum Usable APM. He isn't suggesting some kind of delay between commands. Rather, he's refering to the threshold where an increase in APM isn't useful. In a hypothetical situation where you're microing and macroing perfectly, any increase in APM would be pointless spamming that wouldn't improve your game at all. This threshold is fairly high in StarCraft, and what Sirlin means is that lower it would make it more accessible to a wider audience. Part of the way to do that is to make units behave more intelligently (Like the new Zergling Micro and automine) or through interface improvements (Like MBS). Exactly. This is also what makes me so angry about his reasoning. The whole point is that the "Maximum useful APM" is supposed to be an unreachable goal. It's supposed to be at least twice as high as what any human can perform. This makes time a resource in the game. Since you APM and attention can't be everywhere and do everything you want in the mid/lategame you will have to prioritize when you macro, which battles to focus on etc etc. THAT is a huge part of the skill that is Starcraft and that just went right past Sirlins face without him even blinking. Sirlin aknowledged the fact that SC and SC2 will have different way of testing the skill of the player, he is just "wondering" why so many SC players want to keep having them in SC2 rather than fresh new ones based on a better interface. Realize that even in a game like War3, kind of slow and macroless (true for a lot of MU) compared to SC and essentialy based on micro, Grubby and particulary Moon have been dominating the scene like no one in SC has ever been able to do so. Maybe with MBS and automine people will be able to focus their attention on more battles (it was nothing to do with the maximum unit selection, whatever), but why would it be necessarily bad ? People wouldn't twiddle their thumbs, they will just focus their attention on different things, the maximum useful apm will remain unreachable. In the end what would differentiate the skill of the players will still be their multitasking and their macro/micro.
A game with no macro isn't necessarily bad. Super Smash Brothers Melee doesn't have any macro and it's a perfectly fine game. It's simply not what we're looking for in Starcraft II. We actually *like* macro so we want to keep it in the game. Would you try to minimize the amount of micro players have to do? No? Then why try to reduce macro at all in the first place? As for Warcraft III, we're not looking for Warcraft IV. We want Starcraft II. As a side note, as spectator sports, Starcraft blows Warcraft III out of the water.
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On December 22 2009 15:32 TeWy wrote:
Sirlin aknowledged the fact that SC and SC2 will have different way of testing the skill of the player, he is just "wondering" why so many SC players want to keep having them in SC2 rather than fresh new ones based on a better interface.
Realize that even in a game like War3, kind of slow and macroless (true for a lot of MU) compared to SC and essentialy based on micro, Grubby and particulary Moon have been dominating the scene like no one in SC has ever been able to do so. Maybe with MBS and automine people will be able to focus their attention on more battles (it was nothing to do with the maximum unit selection, whatever), but why would it be necessarily bad ?
It wouldn't necessarily be bad or good. It would shift the focus of the skill required possibly more towards the strategy aspect and away from the execution aspect. That alone doesn't say anything about the quality or enjoyability of the game, just that the game wouldn't be what it is right now. If people know that they prefer things the way they are now, why would they support a change?
By the way, the notion itself of "maximum useful APM" is a non-sense, every move you make in a RTS is based on a certain anticipation thus probability, and those probabilities change each +epsilon time, the maximum useful APM is INFINITE, no matter what the RTS is.
Could you elaborate on this? Even if there are an infinite number of options at every point in time, there aren't necessarily an infinite number of actions that need to be taken to play ideally. You can decide that a move is ideal given the situation, and make no changes to this until new information arises.
All of this is pointless of course because nobody is capable of reaching 'maximum useful APM', and hopefully this will be true in sc2 as well.
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On December 22 2009 15:32 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 14:41 DrainX wrote:On December 22 2009 11:50 ComradeDover wrote:On December 22 2009 04:38 Severedevil wrote:
This is documented proof that Sirlin knows nothing about RTS. What the fuck is 'maximum useful APM'? It's a pretend, bullshit, incoherent concept. Yes, you could arbitrarily impose Fighting Game Rules on Starcraft, so that every time you give an order or move the screen, you have to wait .2 to .5 seconds before you can do anything else. You could purposefully fuck up the interface for no reason at all, just so the phrase 'maximum useful APM' isn't Sirlin's worthless attempt to feign relevance. You're confusing terms. He said Maximum Useful APM, not Maximum Usable APM. He isn't suggesting some kind of delay between commands. Rather, he's refering to the threshold where an increase in APM isn't useful. In a hypothetical situation where you're microing and macroing perfectly, any increase in APM would be pointless spamming that wouldn't improve your game at all. This threshold is fairly high in StarCraft, and what Sirlin means is that lower it would make it more accessible to a wider audience. Part of the way to do that is to make units behave more intelligently (Like the new Zergling Micro and automine) or through interface improvements (Like MBS). Exactly. This is also what makes me so angry about his reasoning. The whole point is that the "Maximum useful APM" is supposed to be an unreachable goal. It's supposed to be at least twice as high as what any human can perform. This makes time a resource in the game. Since you APM and attention can't be everywhere and do everything you want in the mid/lategame you will have to prioritize when you macro, which battles to focus on etc etc. THAT is a huge part of the skill that is Starcraft and that just went right past Sirlins face without him even blinking. Sirlin aknowledged the fact that SC and SC2 will have different way of testing the skill of the player, he is just "wondering" why so many SC players want to keep having them in SC2 rather than fresh new ones based on a better interface.
I didn't read the entire article I only read the quote in the OP. If he isn't complaining about what I'm talking about then I don't know what his point is. No one has been complaining about multiple unit selection since 2007.
Realize that even in a game like War3, kind of slow and macroless (true for a lot of MU) compared to SC and essentialy based on micro, Grubby and particulary Moon have been dominating the scene like no one in SC has ever been able to do so. Maybe with MBS and automine people will be able to focus their attention on more battles (it was nothing to do with the maximum unit selection, whatever), but why would it be necessarily bad ?
I'm not saying you need to keep time as a resource to keep the game competitive. There are different things that make a good wc3 players the same way that there are different things that make a good DDR or chess player.
I'm not against MBS or automine, what I'm against is moving towards a game where a player wouldn't have to choose which battles to focus on, when to make time for certain tasks. I'm against SC 2 coming to a place where you could have "ok" control of your entire army and all your bases throughout the game and where you basically don't have to make any such split second decisions of where to put you focus. If time/focus couldn't be considered a resource in SC2 then it would be a very different game from SC1 was and one of the core features of the game would be removed in the sequel.
People wouldn't twiddle their thumbs, they will just focus their attention on different things, the maximum useful apm will remain unreachable. In the end what would differentiate the skill of the players will still be their multitasking and their macro/micro.
Don't get me wrong, there will always be some parts of this left in the game. Even in a game that is slower than Starcraft its still impossible for a human to attain perfect play. There is however a huge difference between, for an example, Starcraft and Warcraft 3.
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sirlin kinda has no idea what he is talking about. its like he purchased a readers digest on sc and is acting like he knows what every single sc player thinks, which as you can tell from his interview he has no fucking clue what he is talking about.
it weakens his argument when he compares games like sf hd remix and resident evil to starcraft ..
it worries me that this man is a game designer. someone who compares some stupid flash card game they made to a collectible card game like magic the gathering couldn't possible have more than 5 brain cells. he says magic the gathering is evil, and his argument is? "You basically have to buy your way into power" yah? no shit. its a fucking collectible card game that has been around for 16 years. he criticized a business model that worked for 16 years, one of if not the longest living card games in existence and compared it to what? his fucking flash card game? am i being trolled?
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EPT
